true but I was just making the point that I got the enternals for the price of just a aftermarket block , my block is not quite as strong as a aftermarket but it is pretty damn strong. So I figure I could of spent another couple bucks and got a aftermarket that will twist and warp like any other new casting and it might hold another 100 hp than what I have now but you never expect to spend as much money in the begining as you allways wine up doing.
500rwhp the real limit?
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millhouse
Founding Member
Uhh...yeah, your not making a whole lot of sense. Is your block stock or not? If it's a stock casting...then it will hold no more h/p regardless of the block prep and internals.
An aftermarket dart or ford racing siamese block can handle far...far...far more h/p than a stock casting.
payupsucka
Member
a buddy of mine made 630 rwhp on a stock block.......................for 12 hours than split it like a melon
People acting like it's no big deal to need a block at 500 rwhp? WTF, look at SBC's, LT1's, LS1's, 351's, 4.6's, 5.4's, even 2.3's! It's almost unheard of for a block to be this weak in a somewhat modern "performance" style engine.
You can add a turbo to a stock 5.0, run 15-16 psi and it will make over 500 rwhp, or do an intake manifold and drop the boost a bit and see the same thing.
Every GM or 4.6 guy I talk to just flat out doesnt understand why the hell you need a BLOCK to have a reliable 500-600 rwhp setup, hell I was PRO GM years ago and when I started playing with and learning about Mustangs, I was in shock to realise they needed a $2000 block if you didnt want a timebomb.
There are budget setups like the Mexican Block, older blocks, 351 swaps and such but it's still crazy to realise the BLOCK itself is that *****ty in these cars when you come from something else.
You can add a turbo to a stock 5.0, run 15-16 psi and it will make over 500 rwhp, or do an intake manifold and drop the boost a bit and see the same thing.
Every GM or 4.6 guy I talk to just flat out doesnt understand why the hell you need a BLOCK to have a reliable 500-600 rwhp setup, hell I was PRO GM years ago and when I started playing with and learning about Mustangs, I was in shock to realise they needed a $2000 block if you didnt want a timebomb.
There are budget setups like the Mexican Block, older blocks, 351 swaps and such but it's still crazy to realise the BLOCK itself is that *****ty in these cars when you come from something else.
It makes sence it you read my pervious post and others replys, my stock block has quite a bit of machine work and it has been seasoned quite well. I know that my block is not as strong as a aftermarket but it is stronger than a factory stock casting and about as strong as a mexican block. True its no dart block or svo but block prep and the internals have a lot to do with the capicaty the block will allow. Ex. a unbalanced block with factory internals will not last as long as a block with proper balancing and machining. And most blocks that split, split with boost or nitrous power adders because of the extreme stress these things invoke on the block. Believe me with proper machineing and the little tricks you can get the motor to handle some serious hp and rpms. But I am also using the stock stroke which helps.
millhouse
Founding Member
Well...in that case your in for a surprise. The main issues with the stock block cannot be aleviated with "seasoning" nor can the likes of screw in freeze plugs or machine work. Your stock block is as strong as any other...and no where near on par as even a mexican block.
It's been proven many times that the stock rotating assembly is more capable than the stock block can handle. The reason the block that split are typically found with power adders is because the power adders are pushing the blocks past their limits. If you were to reach those levels in n/a form you would likely split the block at or near the same levels.
millhouse
Founding Member
Not true...there have been plenty that have grenaded the engine on an excellent tune. The block is the weak point plain and simple. Any more than 450h/p at the wheels and you better be sure you have AAA gold.
lol @ AAA Gold.
Well this is all new to me and kind of sucks. My LT1 camaro could take more abuse, but was more of a pain to work on and the parts were expensive.
So at this point.. would anyone say that the aftermarket blocks are more affordable than say a GM based aftermarket block?
Would the ford "sportsman" block count as an aftermarket block?
Well this is all new to me and kind of sucks. My LT1 camaro could take more abuse, but was more of a pain to work on and the parts were expensive.
So at this point.. would anyone say that the aftermarket blocks are more affordable than say a GM based aftermarket block?
Would the ford "sportsman" block count as an aftermarket block?
That's a mis-evaluation. The stress of 500hp is the same no matter how you get there. Your 500hp is a rough translation ( because engines don't make hp they make torque ) of how powerful the explosions are that take place inside of it. All the mods have 1 purpose. Get in more air, so you can get in more fuel, so you have a bigger boom in the cylinder. The method of how you get the boom isn't what makes the block split, it's the booming that splits the block.
So it's not the nitrous, it's not the turbos or whatever else, it's the force of the combustion, and if you can get that much power N/A than the force of the combustion is the same and the lifespan of the block is just as short.
dubbsix said:
Yeah unfortunatly the late model factory windsor blocks basically suck. A ford sportsman block is certainly considered aftermarket. I don't think it's at the level of the Dart block, but it should be alot less expensive too. I know it's stronger than the 'mexican' blocks anyhow.
I would be interested to find out how much stronger a block is after it's been cryo'd, and what the price of that would be. You may be able to actually make a sportsman-like strength stock casting block with far less money like that.
That's a mis-evaluation. The stress of 500hp is the same no matter how you get there. sportsman-like strength stock casting block with far less money like that.
Actually, this is not exactly true either...
Your run of the mill Centrifugal blower setup is actually making roughly 20% more power than it's showing on the dyno at peak power. That 20% is being taken directly off the crank.
These are additional stresses on the rotating assembly that N/A and turbo cars do not encure.
Good point, you will be able to see larger number's at the crank or the wheel N/A than with a blower, but the power created at the block is the same, you just can't measure the power before the loss from the blower.
True, but let's not forget that we're talking about block and internals stress. When we're comparing the output to the wheels vs. the ACTUAL power and stress made the motor then you have to take that into account.
I would hazard a guess that I could use that additional 20% more safely with a Turbo than I could with a blower without splitting the block down the lifter valley. hehe
I would hazard a guess that I could use that additional 20% more safely with a Turbo than I could with a blower without splitting the block down the lifter valley. hehe
Absolutly because the turbo doesn't rob as much power.
assuming you're actually making the same power with the blower and the turbo, you'll -see- more with the turbo.
which isn't to say the turbo is making more power, it's just allowing more to get to the crank/tire.
if you try to use a blower to "catch up" to the turbo, now were actually making more power, which will lend to a two piece block
For this particualr instance....
It's not so much that the turbo is amking more power... it's just able to make power without adding the additional stresses that a crank driven setup would.
The reason of course, is because the turbo is not being powered by the mechanicals of the rotating assembly. Just a lil backup of the exhaust. hehe
It's not so much that the turbo is amking more power... it's just able to make power without adding the additional stresses that a crank driven setup would.
The reason of course, is because the turbo is not being powered by the mechanicals of the rotating assembly. Just a lil backup of the exhaust. hehe
Centrifugals place alot of stress on the snout of the crank and most are reved higher to make boost to make power. Turbos can come on kind of soft but still make enough instant power to put the block on queer street. Nitrous is a big sudden shock and can beat alot of stuff up easily. N/A with that kind of power would take SERIOUS rpms which would kill the block pretty quick and probably bring that 500 rwhp rating down quite a bit.
I know another guy that had a stock block car, D1, TEA TFS Heads, AOD car, made 507 rwhp and then he upped the boost alot for along time, so it's making even more at the wheels and ALOT at the flywheel considering it's going through an AOD, car ran 105 or so in the 1/8, it finally killed the block one day. It lasted for awhile but didnt get run alot at all, was together for a few years but just didnt see alot of passes or hard street runs compared to some people.
I know another guy that had a stock block car, D1, TEA TFS Heads, AOD car, made 507 rwhp and then he upped the boost alot for along time, so it's making even more at the wheels and ALOT at the flywheel considering it's going through an AOD, car ran 105 or so in the 1/8, it finally killed the block one day. It lasted for awhile but didnt get run alot at all, was together for a few years but just didnt see alot of passes or hard street runs compared to some people.
Lets remenber what really splits blocks -detention- Nitrous and boost will put a lot more stress on the block than n/a does I will give you the perfect example What is the resaon we runn forgerd pistons with power adders, the extra amount of stress in the combustion camber the cast piston will not handle yet I can run hyper pistion on n/a all day and make 650+ hp and it will not effect the piston. In fact I knew I guy running a 200 shot on a small block chevy that all ready made 536 at the fly plus the 200 put him in the 7-800 realm with hyper pistons and it never blew buring a run and it was in the 10.5:1 compression range the only way it would hold together is he had the proper tune other wise it would of blew with the first shot.
bubba-dough
Active Member
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