Top Gear: Shelby GT500
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s197matt
New Member
I thought this was a rather fun episode, but there were quite a few errors in the GT500 segment.
First is the obvious. Richard seemed upset that the GT500 only dyno 440+ "horsepower", but failed to realize this was RWHP. Using the drivetrain loss of about 15%, we're looking at 522 fwhp (flywheel). His own GT390 dyno'd 250 rwhp which is roughly 300 fwhp.
Jeremy Clarkson said the Roush Mustang was better because it had a limited slip differential, whereas the GT500 didn't. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, OVER. The Mustang GT, Shelby GT, Shelby GT-H, and Shelby GT500 ALL have a Traction-Lok differential (limited slip). I'm surprised that these experts on cars would get these simple details totally wrong.
I'm a fan of live-axle rear suspensions, and I still find their bashing quite humorous. They come up with witty ways of admonishing our "technology".
It's also interesting the GT500 was slower in the Top Gear track than the WRX STi right above it.
The problem with the GT500 is its 4000 lb curb weight. The weight to power ratio is only comparable with the BASE C6 Corvette. Factor in massive wheelhop and a crude suspension design, the GT500 isn't going to stick to the curves as well as some of the competitors without modifications. The dealer markups make it even worse because for $43k, the GT500 is an EXCELLENT buy. For $65k+ that most dealers want, the GT500 is kind of a rip-off. The base C6 corvette can be equipped with a heads up display, sport suspension system with magnetic ride shocks, advanced traction control, etc... for about $50k.
The Z06, which will run the 1/4 faster than the GT500 in bone stock factory form, is almost 1000 lb lighter than the GT500 and has the same horsepower
The Z06 isn't cheap though.
First is the obvious. Richard seemed upset that the GT500 only dyno 440+ "horsepower", but failed to realize this was RWHP. Using the drivetrain loss of about 15%, we're looking at 522 fwhp (flywheel). His own GT390 dyno'd 250 rwhp which is roughly 300 fwhp.
Jeremy Clarkson said the Roush Mustang was better because it had a limited slip differential, whereas the GT500 didn't. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, OVER. The Mustang GT, Shelby GT, Shelby GT-H, and Shelby GT500 ALL have a Traction-Lok differential (limited slip). I'm surprised that these experts on cars would get these simple details totally wrong.
I'm a fan of live-axle rear suspensions, and I still find their bashing quite humorous. They come up with witty ways of admonishing our "technology".
It's also interesting the GT500 was slower in the Top Gear track than the WRX STi right above it.The problem with the GT500 is its 4000 lb curb weight. The weight to power ratio is only comparable with the BASE C6 Corvette. Factor in massive wheelhop and a crude suspension design, the GT500 isn't going to stick to the curves as well as some of the competitors without modifications. The dealer markups make it even worse because for $43k, the GT500 is an EXCELLENT buy. For $65k+ that most dealers want, the GT500 is kind of a rip-off. The base C6 corvette can be equipped with a heads up display, sport suspension system with magnetic ride shocks, advanced traction control, etc... for about $50k.
The Z06, which will run the 1/4 faster than the GT500 in bone stock factory form, is almost 1000 lb lighter than the GT500 and has the same horsepower
The Z06 isn't cheap though.I thought this was a rather fun episode, but there were quite a few errors in the GT500 segment.
First is the obvious. Richard seemed upset that the GT500 only dyno 440+ "horsepower", but failed to realize this was RWHP. Using the drivetrain loss of about 15%, we're looking at 522 fwhp (flywheel). His own GT390 dyno'd 250 rwhp which is roughly 300 fwhp.
Jeremy Clarkson said the Roush Mustang was better because it had a limited slip differential, whereas the GT500 didn't. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, OVER. The Mustang GT, Shelby GT, Shelby GT-H, and Shelby GT500 ALL have a Traction-Lok differential (limited slip). I'm surprised that these experts on cars would get these simple details totally wrong.
I'm a fan of live-axle rear suspensions, and I still find their bashing quite humorous. They come up with witty ways of admonishing our "technology".
The problem with the GT500 is its 4000 lb curb weight. The weight to power ratio is only comparable with the BASE C6 Corvette. Factor in massive wheelhop and a crude suspension design, the GT500 isn't going to stick to the curves as well as some of the competitors without modifications. The dealer markups make it even worse because for $43k, the GT500 is an EXCELLENT buy. For $65k+ that most dealers want, the GT500 is kind of a rip-off. The base C6 corvette can be equipped with a heads up display, sport suspension system with magnetic ride shocks, advanced traction control, etc... for about $50k.
The Z06, which will run the 1/4 faster than the GT500 in bone stock factory form, is almost 1000 lb lighter than the GT500 and has the same horsepower
For all we know they may have been doing the drivetrain loss correction. But they may not have been doing the correction for temperature, humidity, air pressure. The problem I have with Ford on this car is their claim about ditching the IRS for cost reasons yet the car is still almost $10,000 more than the previous Cobra (assuming you could get it for MSRP, which few if any have so far). And all you are getting for the extra money is more engine displacement. In contrast, the Mustang GT is only slightly more money than the previous version and has the upgrade to 3 valve per cylinder with variable valve timing. The Shelby GT 500 is an overpriced, overweight, overrated car.
I agree. I am not impressed with the power output of the 5.4L quad-cam V8. For an engine that has more displacement and more valves than the 4.6L 2V or 3V V8, it's only producing slightly more horsepower with the stock blower. For that matter, I wasn't impressed with the 05-06 GT's supercharged 5.4L 4V V8. Chevy can pump out that much power with a naturally aspirated OHV V8.
The FRPP 11 psi Whipple kit can help the 4.6L 3V V8 produce over 500 fwhp. With forged internals and a solid tune, a Mustang GT can become an inexpensive "GT500".
The FRPP 11 psi Whipple kit can help the 4.6L 3V V8 produce over 500 fwhp. With forged internals and a solid tune, a Mustang GT can become an inexpensive "GT500".
Houston94vert
Founding Member
Yes, but there you said it. Whipple kit and forged internals. The price for labor, parts and tuning can cost you easily 10K. Then what type of warranty would you have? And once you forge the 3v v8, how much power can you get? The idea behind the GT500 is the "hard stuff" is done for you, tune, and warranty. Plus the potiential for more power is much better than the typical 3v v8.
Apples to apples here people.
This show has a reputation for "hating" american cars, why is it so surprising that every point they elaborate on is things that they "hate" about the car? They KNOW this. That's why the look to it's weaknesses, and compare it to supercars. Tell them to purchase a car for the same price in Europe, and see what you get. They love to hate on the interior, the "old" style suspension, and the weight of the car. But again, the forget the price tag that goes with this much power. Or choose to not speak of it. They are never excited about driving an american car. They only one they like is the Ford GT and GTX1, which of course is still cheaper than their precious italian cars.
Bottom line. GT500 for msrp is the best bang for your buck, hands down.
I agree with you, and was about to mention the GT500 has a factory warranty. Just wait 5 years or drive 60k miles with a base GT and install the FRPP whipple kit. The tune that it comes with is supposed to be EXTREMELY conservative, yielding 475 rwhp. If you take a used 05-06 Mustang GT and add $10k worth of parts and labor, you're still a good $10k-$20k below the GT500s asking prices.
However, the GT500 is not selling for MSRP and thus isn't a good bang for the buck. The base level C6 Corvette can match the GT500's performance and has better handling, all for under $50k MSRP without any markups. The Stig's lap times with the C6 Vette and Z06 show that the base Vette is faster and better handling. In addition, you can get the magnetic ride system, a superior traction control system, and a heads up display in the base C6 Vette. These are not available for the GT500.
Houston94vert
Founding Member
Again, apples to apples.
You stated "used" 05-06. Go purchase a brand new 2007 GT with factory supercharger, upgraded brakes and suspension, body kit, etc. AKA Saleen / Roush and the price is about the same as the GT500 except you have a smaller motor, 5 speed tranny and less potiential.
C6 is a very sexy car. I'm really considering one, as now you can find 2005 for 35-39K!!! Check ebay!! You'll be surprised. Very very good bang for the buck. One problem, 2 seater. So to me that car will not be in my garage unless I have a daily driver as well. Now the GT500 can function for a daily driver and take the kiddo to school or family outtings. Plus 1,500-2000 bones You can have over 600 hp, can't say that with c6.
Also as you stated, you can't find a GT500 for MSRP, this is very true. However, in 2-3 months, I will bet you can find them for MSRP or even under MSRP. 2008 models will be coming out. This is how I purchased my 2004 Cobra. I purchased below MSRP in 2005.
However, I am holding out for GT500. I'd like to grab one for 39K. So either it be used or 2007 still sitting somewhere, I'll wait. Becase in 2-3 years, the car is going to be a 25-30K car easily. So my little delima is trying to keep this current car I own stock or add parts and forget the GT500. I'll give it 3 months and then make my decision.
I originally wanted to buy a 03-04 SVT Cobra (new). There was a Ford dealership across from where I lived at the time and EVERY morning, I'd see that beautiful Mystichrome Cobra just sitting there, beckoning for me to sit in it and take the keys... Unfortunately the markup was rather high. I waited about 1-2 years and they weren't dropping in price. I suspect the 07 GT500 is still going to have ADMs until they are no longer "new" on the market. 
There are over half a dozen base C6 Vettes at a local Chevy dealership, just sitting in the lots without any markups. The perforated leather interior, heads up display, tuned active suspension, and other gizmos make it a dead sexy car. For those who want the automatic, they are treated to paddle shifters
The performance and handling are just icing on the cake!!
I have no use for a 4-seater car; in fact all I need is just a driver's seat. Passengers just add weight to the car and slow it down.
There are over half a dozen base C6 Vettes at a local Chevy dealership, just sitting in the lots without any markups. The perforated leather interior, heads up display, tuned active suspension, and other gizmos make it a dead sexy car. For those who want the automatic, they are treated to paddle shifters
The performance and handling are just icing on the cake!!
I have no use for a 4-seater car; in fact all I need is just a driver's seat. Passengers just add weight to the car and slow it down.
Houston94vert
Founding Member
I wish I could order an SVT Cobra, not a Shelby GT500. I bet the price would drop to msrp in a heart beat. Thanks FORD for putthing Shelby's name on the car!! Fockers!! I just want the car, I don't want the badging. Shelby didn't do any of the development. He signed off on the car and sold his name. SVT built and tested the car. Pisses me off!!
katshot
Member
I can't believe you guys are still talking about this. How is it that Mustang enthusiasts don't understand that Mustangs AREN'T "sports cars"?
Just because magazines and TV shows compare the GT500 to a Corvette or Viper, it doesn't mean they're in the same market. Hell, in the last few years of the F-Body cars production, it was a stretch to compare THEM to the Mustang, as they were turned more into "sports cars" than "pony-cars" (or "sport-y cars" as they're sometimes being called).
Yeah, the Mustang is heavier and softer than most of it's "competition" but that's because the media is telling YOU who the competition is, rather than you telling THEM.
I'm NOT a huge fan of the GT500 anyway but still, I think it's getting taken to task for not measuring up to targets that it wasn't designed to compete directly against. Just because another car is fast, sporty, and aimed at the enthusiast crowd, it doesn't mean it's the same as all the others that also fit that rather vague description.
Yeah, the Corvette might do better lap times but is it as comfortable to drive? Or can it transport 4 people? You want to compare the GT500 with something? Find a 2+2 sports coupe first, and THEN start comparing. Hell, IMO, you'd be more fair to compare it to a sport sedan than a sports car.
Just because magazines and TV shows compare the GT500 to a Corvette or Viper, it doesn't mean they're in the same market. Hell, in the last few years of the F-Body cars production, it was a stretch to compare THEM to the Mustang, as they were turned more into "sports cars" than "pony-cars" (or "sport-y cars" as they're sometimes being called).
Yeah, the Mustang is heavier and softer than most of it's "competition" but that's because the media is telling YOU who the competition is, rather than you telling THEM.
I'm NOT a huge fan of the GT500 anyway but still, I think it's getting taken to task for not measuring up to targets that it wasn't designed to compete directly against. Just because another car is fast, sporty, and aimed at the enthusiast crowd, it doesn't mean it's the same as all the others that also fit that rather vague description.
Yeah, the Corvette might do better lap times but is it as comfortable to drive? Or can it transport 4 people? You want to compare the GT500 with something? Find a 2+2 sports coupe first, and THEN start comparing. Hell, IMO, you'd be more fair to compare it to a sport sedan than a sports car.
The Mustang GT is a sports car. It says so on the window sticker. :SNSign:
A sports sedan would be something like a Charger R/T, Charger SRT-8, or even the 03-04 Mercury Marauder which have the amenities of a luxury car combined with the engine power of a sports car.
The Corvette has a superior traction control/stability control system and heads up display (optional), something the Cobra/GT500 doesn't have. In addition, the base C6 Vette also has an automatic transmission with paddle shifters; the Cobra/GT500 do not have an optional automatic transmission. I personally prefer manual gearboxes for sports cars, but you effectively eliminate a LARGE section of the US auto market by making the car manual-only.
In terms of bang for the buck, the base C6 Vette looks like a better deal to me than the GT500 (speaking as a die-hard Ford enthusiast).
A sports sedan would be something like a Charger R/T, Charger SRT-8, or even the 03-04 Mercury Marauder which have the amenities of a luxury car combined with the engine power of a sports car.
The Corvette has a superior traction control/stability control system and heads up display (optional), something the Cobra/GT500 doesn't have. In addition, the base C6 Vette also has an automatic transmission with paddle shifters; the Cobra/GT500 do not have an optional automatic transmission. I personally prefer manual gearboxes for sports cars, but you effectively eliminate a LARGE section of the US auto market by making the car manual-only.
In terms of bang for the buck, the base C6 Vette looks like a better deal to me than the GT500 (speaking as a die-hard Ford enthusiast).
Houston94vert
Founding Member
You do know that SVT aimed the cobra at the corvette? With knowledge of the camaro / ta going out, they decided the vette was the next victim. Dubbed the Terminator and vette killer for the 2003-04 Cobra's. And it was. The vette would bearly beat 03-04 cobra around a track, and the cobra was 10k less.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0305_sport_convertibles_comparison/index.html
To not compare them is UnAmerican.
Because most people when shopping for this "type" of car, they are spending the same amount of money and want to compare the differences. And there is always ways to angle the debate to were your favorite car will win.
Just agree they are both cars out there and it's more or less a decisions of preference. You either like ford or chevy. Either way you get a fun great car for your money.
MCABOSS
Founding Member
I thought this was a rather fun episode, but there were quite a few errors in the GT500 segment.
First is the obvious. Richard seemed upset that the GT500 only dyno 440+ "horsepower", but failed to realize this was RWHP. Using the drivetrain loss of about 15%, we're looking at 522 fwhp (flywheel). His own GT390 dyno'd 250 rwhp which is roughly 300 fwhp.
Jeremy Clarkson said the Roush Mustang was better because it had a limited slip differential, whereas the GT500 didn't. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, OVER. The Mustang GT, Shelby GT, Shelby GT-H, and Shelby GT500 ALL have a Traction-Lok differential (limited slip). I'm surprised that these experts on cars would get these simple details totally wrong.
I'm a fan of live-axle rear suspensions, and I still find their bashing quite humorous. They come up with witty ways of admonishing our "technology".
The problem with the GT500 is its 4000 lb curb weight. The weight to power ratio is only comparable with the BASE C6 Corvette. Factor in massive wheelhop and a crude suspension design, the GT500 isn't going to stick to the curves as well as some of the competitors without modifications. The dealer markups make it even worse because for $43k, the GT500 is an EXCELLENT buy. For $65k+ that most dealers want, the GT500 is kind of a rip-off. The base C6 corvette can be equipped with a heads up display, sport suspension system with magnetic ride shocks, advanced traction control, etc... for about $50k.
The Z06, which will run the 1/4 faster than the GT500 in bone stock factory form, is almost 1000 lb lighter than the GT500 and has the same horsepower
It's a good thing they didn't try to compare the Z06 to the Ford GT!
This is a bold prediction. If a 3 year old GT500 will be $25k, that is pretty much typical depreciation from MSRP ($45k). According to Edmunds.com and what I have seen on E-bay a 2004 Cobra in excellent shape with average mileage can be bought for around $25k (about 70% of the original MSRP). So 70% of $45k is about $32k. My prediction is the used GT500s will be selling closer to $35k in 3 years. If so, the guys who bought them for $65k will be waiting a very long time to not be feeling totally ripped off or that the 'investment' was worth it.
How many of these GT500s is Ford planning to build? That is obviously the key factor. I seem to recall Carrol Shelby saying he wanted Ford to build as many as they had buyers for. I wonder how he feels about the price-gouging going on with the cars carrying his name. I believe it will do irreparable harm to his legacy.
katshot
Member
To NOT compare them is un-American. I get that America has been wrapped up in a Ford vs. Chevy battle for decades but that doesn't translate into this being an intelligent comparison.
While they are the two company's quickest, fastest, most cars sporty cars, they are two totally different takes on what an enthusiast wants. They are only being compared because people want to see a Ford vs. Chevy battle, and these are the ONLY gladiators in the stable to compete.
The last good battle was the Z06 vs. Ford GT and that was a good comparison.
When the Camaro comes back, you'll have a direct comparison and THEN you can have your battle.
People are comparing the GT500 to the base C6 Vette because they are priced in the same range and both are RWD/V8 sports cars. While the Vette is a 2-seater, the GT500 is a 2+2 seater. IMHO, you get more car for the money with the C6 Vette. Both have comparable weight to power ratios (500 hp w/ 3900 lb chassis, 400 hp w/ 3100 lb chassis) but the Vette handles better, has better stability control/traction control, magnetic ride/suspension, optional heads up display (which ROCKS), and optional paddle shifter automatic transmission (which the GT500 does not have, nor does the 03-04 Cobra have one) so almost anyone could drive one. I've heard first-hand reports that the C4-C6 Vettes have such good trac ctrl / stability control that they can be driven in 1"-3" of snow without any problems. Ford's traction control is traditionally a very crude system. There's no markup for the C6 Vette and there's no waiting period either. Seating 4 people isn't a priority for most people with at least $40k to spend on a sports car.
The Z06 is simply a beast of a car and the GT500 is not even in the same league as the Z06. I'm not sure I'd compare the Ford GT to the Z06, because there is a significant price gap between those cars. I didn't even think of the Ford vs. Chevy aspect, but competition is always good.
The Z06 is simply a beast of a car and the GT500 is not even in the same league as the Z06. I'm not sure I'd compare the Ford GT to the Z06, because there is a significant price gap between those cars. I didn't even think of the Ford vs. Chevy aspect, but competition is always good.
