I am strickened with sadness. A couple people that I knew didn't make it. Man yesterday, none of this seemed real. Right now, it's all starting to sink in. School is cancelled for the rest of the week, I'm going home.
Shooting at Virginia Tech
- Thread starter WhiteStallionGT
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You had me on the earlier post but going way off here....
"No one could have possibly known that the first shooting would've led to the mass shooting across campus."
"But the second a single incident leads to a secondary incident it becomes common sense that the single incident was some kind of warning? I just don't get it."
That's a non-issue really. When peoples lives are at stake you don't take chances, period. Whether you or anyone else gets it or not, your take simply doesn't work. So you are saying, keep the status quo? That will result in failure again unfortunately.
You either sound the sirens everytime something happens and let the sirens lose their significance"
You have to realize your thinking is wrong on this one.. If we sound the alarm every time someone gets SHOT DEAD, the alarms will lose their significance.
Quote:
Trust me, if those kids were one of your kids, you would be looking for a BETTER WAY.
"Not uncommon, for victims or family of victims to be totally irrational."
66, come on man, nothing ir-rational about it. perhaps you have studied effects on victims and such. We always look for a place to apply what we have learned but don't let that get in the way of solving the problem. The problem is that your way of thinking and the colleges way of thinking DID and has failed miserably (see # of dead people).
Now is a time not to point blame but to simply come up with a better system.
P.S. I am not flaming you, I just totally disagree with your frame of thinking on this one.
You cannot get results by doing the same thing or considering someone ir-rational or discount them automatically just because they are victims. I would hate to think that the police approach people this way.
"No one could have possibly known that the first shooting would've led to the mass shooting across campus."
"But the second a single incident leads to a secondary incident it becomes common sense that the single incident was some kind of warning? I just don't get it."
That's a non-issue really. When peoples lives are at stake you don't take chances, period. Whether you or anyone else gets it or not, your take simply doesn't work. So you are saying, keep the status quo? That will result in failure again unfortunately.
You either sound the sirens everytime something happens and let the sirens lose their significance"
You have to realize your thinking is wrong on this one.. If we sound the alarm every time someone gets SHOT DEAD, the alarms will lose their significance.
Quote:
Trust me, if those kids were one of your kids, you would be looking for a BETTER WAY.
"Not uncommon, for victims or family of victims to be totally irrational."
66, come on man, nothing ir-rational about it. perhaps you have studied effects on victims and such. We always look for a place to apply what we have learned but don't let that get in the way of solving the problem. The problem is that your way of thinking and the colleges way of thinking DID and has failed miserably (see # of dead people).
Now is a time not to point blame but to simply come up with a better system.
P.S. I am not flaming you, I just totally disagree with your frame of thinking on this one.
You cannot get results by doing the same thing or considering someone ir-rational or discount them automatically just because they are victims. I would hate to think that the police approach people this way.
'66 coupe
Founding Member
You have to realize your thinking is wrong on this one.. If we sound the alarm every time someone gets SHOT DEAD, the alarms will lose their significance.
You're exactly the kind of person that would be surprised at the number of shootings/murders occur on campuses and in student housing complexes across the country. It's not an everyday occurence, but it's not exactly uncommon either.
As I said, my University has had murders, carjackings, and attacks at student housing complexes(we don't have a lot of dorms). No sirens because they were all isolated incidents. Most suspects won't go on to commit another act in front of a large crowd(ie classroom, outside classroom buildings).
I'm not calling them irrational because of who they are, but because of what their views are.
Without a crystal ball, there was no way to know the second shooting would occur. Anybody who says that the University made the wrong call has such a holier-than-thou attitude. They couldn't have known, and at 8:00am yesterday you wouldn't have been able to guess either. Even if you used statistical information to make a decision, the statistics would've said there was no need for the alarm. There have been only 3 or 4 mass shootings at Universities compared to hundreds(possibly thousands?) of murders, and thousands of violent attacks.
'66 coupe
Founding Member
2nd question:
How would an effective lock down have occured?
How do you get information to students traveling to class? They hear a siren, okay. Where do they go? Do they go to class? Is it safe at their next class or safer at the library? As said, you would need an intelligence unit to answer all of these questions.
Do you keep students in the classroom? Most victims at VT were in classrooms. The deadliest part of Columbine was the library where most students were locked down hiding.
If VT is like UCF, the professors don't have keys to the classrooms, and you need keys even to lock the rooms from the inside. So basically keeping kids in a room with an unlocked door is like shooting fish in a barrel. So would a lockdown have changed the outcome much?
You know 32 students were brutally murdered, that's the only reason you know the University made the wrong decision. But put yourself in their shoes at 8:30am or even 9:00am. You have an isolated shooting and nothing else has happened in the immediate area or in the past hour. What would you have done? What's your lockdown strategy?
How would an effective lock down have occured?
How do you get information to students traveling to class? They hear a siren, okay. Where do they go? Do they go to class? Is it safe at their next class or safer at the library? As said, you would need an intelligence unit to answer all of these questions.
Do you keep students in the classroom? Most victims at VT were in classrooms. The deadliest part of Columbine was the library where most students were locked down hiding.
If VT is like UCF, the professors don't have keys to the classrooms, and you need keys even to lock the rooms from the inside. So basically keeping kids in a room with an unlocked door is like shooting fish in a barrel. So would a lockdown have changed the outcome much?
You know 32 students were brutally murdered, that's the only reason you know the University made the wrong decision. But put yourself in their shoes at 8:30am or even 9:00am. You have an isolated shooting and nothing else has happened in the immediate area or in the past hour. What would you have done? What's your lockdown strategy?
gcomfx.com
Founding Member
'66 coupe
Founding Member
That's the problem there is no plan for this sort of thing. We don't even do firedrills at my University.
We've discussed these topics in my terrorism class. There's no specific protocol for a gunman rampage, just like there's no protocol for a dirty bomb. The agencies have their parts to play, but the students are never taught what to do just in case ________ happens.
Maybe at EVERY orientation for EVERY school they can practice drills for what to do in EVERY sort of possible scenerio.
This is exactly my point. The demands people are putting on the school by questioning their actions are ridiculous.
"You're exactly the kind of person that would be surprised... "
Oh, stop attempting to "profile" me, lol. I am not a "subject."
"I'm not calling them irrational because of who they are, but because of what their views are.
Prejudging and discounting victims is really a very dumb idea no matter what the current police force "texbook pop psych" class states.
It is just as bad as someone saying that just because someone is a cop, that they must have gotten beat up when they were a kid and they eat dounuts all day. You cannot categorize an entire class of people. This is what Mark Ferman did..
The solution is very simple. At least use the p.a. system where you can, to verbally tell people what the danger is in addition to an email or something to that effect. It is better than nothing and would save lives. Then let the people decide what to do. .. Just like a democracy. Anything BUT just email or throw your hands up and say oh well..
As to blaming the school, I already said I am not promoting that. I am promoting looking at a better solution and not simply discounting mourners as "statistics" or basically "police texbook cases" that are non-relevant. That the most rediculous argument I have ever heard.
Oh, stop attempting to "profile" me, lol. I am not a "subject."
"I'm not calling them irrational because of who they are, but because of what their views are.
Prejudging and discounting victims is really a very dumb idea no matter what the current police force "texbook pop psych" class states.
It is just as bad as someone saying that just because someone is a cop, that they must have gotten beat up when they were a kid and they eat dounuts all day. You cannot categorize an entire class of people. This is what Mark Ferman did..
The solution is very simple. At least use the p.a. system where you can, to verbally tell people what the danger is in addition to an email or something to that effect. It is better than nothing and would save lives. Then let the people decide what to do. .. Just like a democracy. Anything BUT just email or throw your hands up and say oh well..
As to blaming the school, I already said I am not promoting that. I am promoting looking at a better solution and not simply discounting mourners as "statistics" or basically "police texbook cases" that are non-relevant. That the most rediculous argument I have ever heard.
'66 coupe
Founding Member
I disagree with their views. I think their ridiculous questions are irrational and they are being too demanding in thinking that every school should be prepared for these freak occurences. I also think their criticisms are poorly timed. This is a time to mourn and remember those lost, not to point fingers at those who didn't even pull the trigger.
Even the news said some parents are asking why the school didn't react properly while other parents are defending the school saying there's no way they could've known. I tend to agree with the parents that side with the school saying this was unpredictable.
Do you have some personal problem with me? I don't get how you go out of your way to disagree with me in every thread while several others quote my posts agreeing with me. You don't disagree with those who agree with me, just me.
I disagree with their views. I think their ridiculous questions are irrational and they are being too demanding in thinking that every school should be prepared for these freak occurences. I also think their criticisms are poorly timed. This is a time to mourn and remember those lost, not to point fingers at those who didn't even pull the trigger.
Even the news said some parents are asking why the school didn't react properly while other parents are defending the school saying there's no way they could've known. I tend to agree with the parents that side with the school saying this was unpredictable.
Do you have some personal problem with me? I don't get how you go out of your way to disagree with me in every thread while several others quote my posts agreeing with me. You don't disagree with those who agree with me, just me.
Let's come back to the point.
#1 No I do not have a personal problem with you at all.
I am only disagreeing with you on ONE.. well TWO aspects:A. The mentality that victims are not to be considered people with a valid opinion and perhaps arguments. This is my MAIN point of contention with your argument. They are still people with valid opinions no less than yours or mine and should not be "profiled" as near non-entities. [/b]
B. I disagree that we are to throw our hands up and not try to prevent this from happening again. The point someone else agreed with you was on sirens. I could give a #$%^ less about sirens. I am just saying there needs to be a better way to prevent it now that it seems to be becoming an epidemnic.
#2 You may be thinking that I am agreeing with all the finger pointing and media B.S going around. I have already said 3 times I dont support that either.
I hope that makes more sense. We are both saying the same thing. I have not had a chance to see the coverage today. I am in front of a computer all day in between installs. You see victims solely as probably a whole bunch of people on cnn. I am saying reasonable victims and not just what the media like to portray. Again, I think we might well be satying the same thing here.
GTA_V6_Mustang
Active Member
I heard about this, and now I am getting ready to go to class at BCC, hmmm... Well white stallion I am extremly sorry to hear that. I hope everything for you get better. Well one thing that was bothering me about this is that this morning there were a number of people on the radio criticizing the students of the school for not fighting back. Now I think its easy for anyone else to say who wasnt in that situation that it was one person against a classroom full of people. But when you are just sitting there in class and someone just comes in without a word and starts shooting random people. You dont have time to think, your first thought is normally going to be defense then react, which is what some students did by holding the doors shut with their feet to keep him from coming back in and attending to the other injured people. All I know is that this was a terrible incident. May the people killed rest in peace, and may their family find comfort in the memory of their loved ones. Good luck whitestallion.
GTA_V6_Mustang
Active Member
Oh and one more thing, Pokageek and 66 I think you can both find it in yourselves to at least agree this was a terrible thing that happened and agree that we all wish something could have been done to stop it. Theres nothing more we can do now but offer the families and friends of the victims our condolences(<--dont think i spelled that right)
'66 coupe
Founding Member
Let's come back to the point.
#1 No I do not have a personal problem with you at all.
You know I had to ask simply because it seems in your mind everything I say has to do with my education or the fact that I plan to go into law enforcement. Me saying that victims can have a tendency to think irrationally is totally different than Mark Furman.
I'll say it again, I disagree with their view. To me it is irrational, not because of their mindsets as victims, but because of the ridiculous demands it places on VT and all other Universities around the nation.
I even said some of the parents are questioning the irrational parents by asking "How could the school have possibly known?", and that's who I agree with.
Me pointing out that they're victims is just my way of excusing their irrationality. I also believe the media for the most part is being irrational, and my excuse for that is that most people in the media are idiots.
You believe it's an epidemic based on what? The Montreal shooting and Charles Whitman at the University of Texas in the '60's? Do you know how many major Universities and small colleges there are? Statistically this is a freak occurence at best.
You and 31 other people could be shot dead at the grocery store. Should every grocery store in the country have a protocol to deal with gunmen?
What about other threats? Arson, bombs, biological attacks, kamikaze planes, etc... If Universities should have protocols for mass shootings, surely these threats should be addressed as well. Where would you draw the line? Which Universities are vulnerable ans which aren't?
"You believe it's an epidemic based on what? .. Statistically this is a freak occurence at best.
Are you seriously serious, lol? .... too many shootings at schools in general in the U.S does not = epidemnic? I am counting "schools" regardless of grade level.
"You and 31 other people could be shot dead at the grocery store. Should every grocery store in the country have a protocol to deal with gunmen?"
This is getting too philisophical for me man. Let's call
on on this back and forth. I wish all the poor victims the best and hope we find ways in the future for better alerting and prevention of this trend in our society. Peace Out! 
Are you seriously serious, lol? .... too many shootings at schools in general in the U.S does not = epidemnic? I am counting "schools" regardless of grade level.
"You and 31 other people could be shot dead at the grocery store. Should every grocery store in the country have a protocol to deal with gunmen?"
This is getting too philisophical for me man. Let's call
on on this back and forth. I wish all the poor victims the best and hope we find ways in the future for better alerting and prevention of this trend in our society. Peace Out!
'66 coupe
Founding Member
People have just become more aware of the dangers that threaten them and their children and it scares the **** out of them.
Dangers are all around, but most people ignore them or put them at the back of their minds. But "32 shot dead at VT" flashing on a news screen forces these realities to the front of people's minds. All of a sudden "we have to do something about this problem!!!" Nevermind the fact that you could fall and die in the shower or that you're putting your life and the lives of your family in the hands of other motorists everytime you get into a car. As Al Pacino said in Heat, "You could get killed walking your doggie."
Let's not forget the fact that shootings like this can occur anywhere, not just schools and Universities.
So what's the solution? Lock up all the guns? Drill every school, university, workplace, and hospital for any imagineable threat? Stop getting into our cars or stop taking showers? Or should we just live our lives?
Dangers are all around, but most people ignore them or put them at the back of their minds. But "32 shot dead at VT" flashing on a news screen forces these realities to the front of people's minds. All of a sudden "we have to do something about this problem!!!" Nevermind the fact that you could fall and die in the shower or that you're putting your life and the lives of your family in the hands of other motorists everytime you get into a car. As Al Pacino said in Heat, "You could get killed walking your doggie."
Let's not forget the fact that shootings like this can occur anywhere, not just schools and Universities.
So what's the solution? Lock up all the guns? Drill every school, university, workplace, and hospital for any imagineable threat? Stop getting into our cars or stop taking showers? Or should we just live our lives?
TheDamned
"I am Canadian and Damned for it!"
'66 coupe
Founding Member
The issue has nothing to do with guns and since you aren't even an American we'll thank you not to worry about our laws. The issue here is a person with serious psychological disorders being allowed to remain a part of society and not being removed from an environment where he could do harm to others. The warning signs were vast and no one did a thing. He should have been forced to attend counseling and maybe even a psychiatric hospital. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266523,00.html
I Agree with with what reddy351 has said and with pretty much all of what 66 coupe has said. At a school with 25,000+ students, this kind of thing is extremely difficult to predict or prevent, but I do tend to think announcing the situation over the intercom system (if there is one) would have been a good idea. Unfortunately, the liberal media and other radicals will try to turn this tragedy into an anti-gun crusade while missing the real issue. Whoever said GW will be blamed for this in some way is probably right. Absolutely ridiculous. I pray for all the victims and their families and hope that this cowardly ****head will burn in hell for what he has done.
I don't like where this thread is going. The only person to blame right now is Cho Seung-Hui. It's so easy to blame other people, it's human nature I guess. But right now, this thing is still so new, blood is still on the sidewalks, forensics still at the scene, ect. I don't think it's the right time to be blamming other people right now, it's too soon.
btw, thanks again Stephane
btw, thanks again Stephane
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