Mustang Drop Spindles

[Rusty67]

I don't want to come off sounding like a total ass here and maybe I am not comprehending what you wrote.

Wont making the caliper mount bracket part of the spindle casting severly limit caliper choices and the size of the rotors you can use ?

What made you come to the decision to do this ?

I honestly think that doing it like this will negatively effect your sales.

Am I misunderstanding what you said ?

 

[96 DOHC Cobra]

what is the kh type caliper??? what does it look like

Kelsey-Hayes calipers. Original four-piston calipers used on 65-67 Mustangs. I like the idea of the removeable steering arm.

 

[70vert]

I take it that since you can mount the 2-piston PBR caliper with 11" rotor kit that you make, that you can also use a 13" PBR-Baer kit? Or is the bracket sized for an 11", but not a 13" rotor? I imagine I could have a larger bracket made for my 13" Baer-PBR kit, but it sure would be nice for it to work out of the box . . .

 

[degins]

I don't want to come off sounding like a total ass here and maybe I am not comprehending what you wrote.

Wont making the caliper mount bracket part of the spindle casting severly limit caliper choices and the size of the rotors you can use ?

What made you come to the decision to do this ?

I honestly think that doing it like this will negatively effect your sales.

Am I misunderstanding what you said ?

Because it is good engineering to make a disc specific spindle. Having the mount cast in eliminates the adapters brackets common to all of the choices currently using 70 type drum spindles. If a user wants to mount the 13" PBR system, an adapter can be made.

 

[bnickel]

Because it is good engineering to make a disc specific spindle. Having the mount cast in eliminates the adapters brackets common to all of the choices currently using 70 type drum spindles. If a user wants to mount the 13" PBR system, an adapter can be made.

Dennis, i think i have to agree on the severely limited market you'll be catering to with this. i for one probably won't use anything larger than an 11" rotor since i'll be keeping my 15" wheels but for all the guys that have been wanting this to work with their aftermarket brake kits this is really going to be rather upsetting to them and a lot of them have been supporting this project from the get go.
i seriously think you should reconsider having the bracket cast in and go with a seperate bracket like it would have stock. or maybe you could offer 2 different versions but i thinkyou'd be better off with one designed to work with any brake kit that will work with a 70 drum spindle. i can understang where you're coming from since your business is brakes but i don't honestly think you'll sell enough of them if you go this route. just my opinion and i'll be getting a set either way since, like i said, i'll be staying with my 15" wheels on the cougar.

 

[degins]

Dennis, i think i have to agree on the severely limited market you'll be catering to with this. i for one probably won't use anything larger than an 11" rotor since i'll be keeping my 15" wheels but for all the guys that have been wanting this to work with their aftermarket brake kits this is really going to be rather upsetting to them and a lot of them have been supporting this project from the get go.
i seriously think you should reconsider having the bracket cast in and go with a seperate bracket like it would have stock. or maybe you could offer 2 different versions but i thinkyou'd be better off with one designed to work with any brake kit that will work with a 70 drum spindle. i can understang where you're coming from since your business is brakes but i don't honestly think you'll sell enough of them if you go this route. just my opinion and i'll be getting a set either way since, like i said, i'll be staying with my 15" wheels on the cougar.

I will make an add on bracket to allow the use of the cobra caliper and rotor, although I don't see this as the primary market.

 

[TheShagg]

So will this have stock 70 drum mounting locations as well? I think that is a key feature that needs to be present.

 

[degins]

So will this have stock 70 drum mounting locations as well? I think that is a key feature that needs to be present.

Why are these key?

 

[bnickel]

Why are these key?

i think what he's getting at is that all the other aftermarket brake kits for the drum spindle use the original drum mounting locations to bolt up the brackets for the calipers. Baer, SSBC, Wilwood, Cobra Automotive and anyone who has one of the original Ford Big Brake kits that utilizes thebig t-bird caliper and the 12" galaxie/lincoln rotors all use the stock drum mounting bolts for the caliper bracket to mount to. i think that was the whole appeal to using the drum spindle in the first place was so that any of these other kits could be used on the dropped spindle that way if someone already had one of these kits then their existing brakes would work.

i originally wanted to use the big t-bird caliper 4 piston caliper and the 12" galaxie rotor myself but i've since decided that for the way i'm going to be driving the car the stock 11" sized rotors will probably be fine but it would still be nice to be able to upgrade at some point if i ever decide to.

 

[degins]

i think what he's getting at is that all the other aftermarket brake kits for the drum spindle use the original drum mounting locations to bolt up the brackets for the calipers. Baer, SSBC, Wilwood, Cobra Automotive and anyone who has one of the original Ford Big Brake kits that utilizes thebig t-bird caliper and the 12" galaxie/lincoln rotors all use the stock drum mounting bolts for the caliper bracket to mount to. i think that was the whole appeal to using the drum spindle in the first place was so that any of these other kits could be used on the dropped spindle that way if someone already had one of these kits then their existing brakes would work.

i originally wanted to use the big t-bird caliper 4 piston caliper and the 12" galaxie rotor myself but i've since decided that for the way i'm going to be driving the car the stock 11" sized rotors will probably be fine but it would still be nice to be able to upgrade at some point if i ever decide to.

Bryan,
Here comes the stark capitalism. I hope you will appreciate the honesty.

I do this work to make a living. In doing this I need to fulfill the needs of the market. It is my determination that, in this case, the market is for a spindle product that allows for the use of wide and large wheels. The secondary goal is to allow the use of performance calipers and rotors. The tertiay goal would be to create R&P compatibility. In doing this it is VERY important to me that I create a product that generates incremental sales; a sale that does not replace a sale of another of my products. It is certainly not my goal to provide a platform for "Baer, SSBC, Wilwood, Cobra Automotive and anyone who has one of the original Ford Big Brake kits ".

This is how business is conducted, enlightened self interest drives all capitalistic activities. This drives the creation rational, proprietary products.

The new spindle will have a 1.5" drop, will allow the use of KH, SN95 PBRs, and Cobra calipers and rotors. I can not address the R&P issue at this time, but may do so later. Users can use the spindle directly along with off-the-shelf KH parts, or can buy my SN95 or Cobra bracket. Other vendors may eventually choose to build brackets for other applications.

 

[bnickel]

oh i totally understand where your coming from but the primary reason we all suggested using the drum spindle in the first place was to allow the use of these other components, i know that doing so may be in conflict with your primary business of brakes, however in this case i believe you could have used your existing granada spindle design and just redesigned it for the drop rather than going with the drum style design. i also truly believe you have just severely limited the market in which you can sell these spindles by alienating a lot of the people who were the driving force behind this project, not trying to offend you at all but i truly believe this may drive a lot of the people who have been supporting this project and offering their advice and ideas away and send them looking for something else. please keep in mind that a lot of the people who have been involved in this brainstorming process wanted this spindle to not allow allow a larger wheel/wider tire but also to accomodate the big brake kits they've already purchased.

in the end it's your decision and your income and i, for one, still plan on purchasing a set but i'm afraid that a lot of the people who were waiting for a set will no longer care to have them if they can't use their existing brakes.

if i can, though, i would like to make one suggestion that would address both your concerns and theirs as well. i honestly think you should consider making the spindle so that it can at least be machined to allow the use of these peoples existing brakes as well as setting it up with your integrated bracket, that way the people who already have an existing big brake kit and want to use your dropped spindle can and you can also still sell the spindle and the accompanying brakes that you sell. i see this as a good solution for everyone and i hope you can also see it that way.

 

[TheShagg]

Bryan,
Here comes the stark capitalism. I hope you will appreciate the honesty.

I do this work to make a living. In doing this I need to fulfill the needs of the market. It is my determination that, in this case, the market is for a spindle product that allows for the use of wide and large wheels. The secondary goal is to allow the use of performance calipers and rotors. The tertiay goal would be to create R&P compatibility. In doing this it is VERY important to me that I create a product that generates incremental sales; a sale that does not replace a sale of another of my products. It is certainly not my goal to provide a platform for "Baer, SSBC, Wilwood, Cobra Automotive and anyone who has one of the original Ford Big Brake kits ".

This is how business is conducted, enlightened self interest drives all capitalistic activities. This drives the creation rational, proprietary products.

The new spindle will have a 1.5" drop, will allow the use of KH, SN95 PBRs, and Cobra calipers and rotors. I can not address the R&P issue at this time, but may do so later. Users can use the spindle directly along with off-the-shelf KH parts, or can buy my SN95 or Cobra bracket. Other vendors may eventually choose to build brackets for other applications.

I think your list is backwards. First priority is to fix all the rack and pinion kits. All of them are wrong. People spend $1,500 on them as well - lots of people, lots of different kits. They have money in this.

Second I think is letting people have whatever brakes they want. Ok, your going half that distance by using your own proprietary system, but your not gaining anything unless you are providing the exact solution they were already thinking of buying. The only thing that would keep me from complaining is if they came with integrated 13" cobra brake mountings, without having to pay for an extra bracket (yours or anyone else's). That is the single best bang-for buck upgrade out there. I still would like to see the drum mounting positions though. Could you have them as cast, and offer the machining as an upgrade?

Lastly is the wider wheels. Not a ton of people want 9 inch wide wheels. Those who do want to use their high dollar brake kits...



Do people agree with me? I am open to the people telling me I'm wrong.

 

[bnickel]

I think your list is backwards. First priority is to fix all the rack and pinion kits. All of them are wrong. People spend $1,500 on them as well - lots of people, lots of different kits. They have money in this.

Second I think is letting people have whatever brakes they want. Ok, your going half that distance by using your own proprietary system, but your not gaining anything unless you are providing the exact solution they were already thinking of buying. The only thing that would keep me from complaining is if they came with integrated 13" cobra brake mountings, without having to pay for an extra bracket (yours or anyone else's). That is the single best bang-for buck upgrade out there. I still would like to see the drum mounting positions though. Could you have them as cast, and offer the machining as an upgrade?

Lastly is the wider wheels. Not a ton of people want 9 inch wide wheels. Those who do want to use their high dollar brake kits...



Do people agree with me? I am open to the people telling me I'm wrong.

we decided a long time ago that the rack correction wasn't the biggest factor for a dropped spindle. the dropped spindle to allow a deeper offset on a wider wheel was the main priority

 

[jayman]

I am with Bnickel on this. I already have a big brake kit for the stock 70 spindle. I would love to have your dropped spindles on my car. If I have to then throw out my existing brake kit, it is a much harder sale.

Just so that you know, I have been crowing to the stars about how you are designing a dropped spindle on the 70 drum brake setup and have seen big interest from all the classic ford shops that I frequent.

The primary interest from the shops is the ability to correct the geometry on the lowered cars without having to cut springs and always being near the end of suspension travel. Lots of cars that would benefit from these. But if you insist that they have to use the PBR, Cobra or K-H calipers, you lose all the sale from people who already have big brake kits. It would be a shame to lose such a large portion of the potential market.

I will still be buying a kit for one of my cars. I would really rather have the choice of whose calipers and rotors I put on the other cars though.

 

[Rusty67]

Degins, I honestly don't see how having the caliper bracket cast into the spindle will improve the marketability of your product. If you are concerned about precluding the sale of your stock Granada spindle then I think you are worrying for no reason. They are 2 different products. One is designed as a simple stock piece and the other is what many people would consider a performance part. Not everyone wants a drop spindle and not everyone wants a stock height spindle.

 

[Jester67]

I for one can see his point. There are a lot of people out there that have not yet upgraded there braking system. There are also a lot of people that would make the change to the brakes and sale there old system. I think that the remainder of people would be pissed to have to change the brakes they have already invested in but I think that is a small group. I am in the first group so I am very interested. Would have liked to have the R&P fix but there also power steering boxes in the wings so that is of less concern to me now.

 

[Rusty67]

I for one can see his point. There are a lot of people out there that have not yet upgraded there braking system. There are also a lot of people that would make the change to the brakes and sale there old system. I think that the remainder of people would be pissed to have to change the brakes they have already invested in but I think that is a small group. I am in the first group so I am very interested. Would have liked to have the R&P fix but there also power steering boxes in the wings so that is of less concern to me now.

I think that not integrating a bracket will not dissapoint anyone where as including it will piss some people off and cost him potential sales. Why would anyone want a bracket that forces them to use a narrow set of brake options.

Would people with drum brakes even be able to stay with a drum brake with an integrated bracket ? If not that may loose some more potential customers.

Designing a product that can fit into more peoples build plans helps to increase the chance that the product will be bought/utilized by people. Narrowing the scope of usability does the opposite and definately doesn't help to sell the product.

 

[degins]

...forces them to use a narrow set of brake options....

I don't see this as narrowing caliper choice. It just means that the caliper brackets will need to be designed to fit the CSRP brand spindle.

..Would people with drum brakes even be able to stay with a drum brake with an integrated bracket ? If not that may loose some more potential customers...

With all due respect Rusty, there is absolutely no market for drum brake conversions/upgrades.

My take on the member's objections is that the integrated bracket will preclude them from using the bracket they already use with their big brake set-up. I appreciate this. But for the vast majority of potential users, this will be their first brake kit. For most of these users, the integrated bracket will save the cost of a separate caliper bracket. You guys don't have the benefit of hundreds of emails a week asking about disc brakes. I get 10 emails asking about 4 lug kits for every one asking about performance options. The fact is that the vast majority of new users are going to be installing this kit on drivers or hobby cars and are much more interested in price than in 13" rotors. Catering to this market allows me to afford the cost of the drop spindle development and to sustain the product for those want the performance option.

Those of us who want to use a 13" rotor and associated bracket will be able to do so. Granted, the bracket will need to be designed for use on the CSRP brand spindle, but I sincerely don't see how this could be a problem. I pledge that any bracket I design and sell for use with this product will cost but a fraction of the $400 currently demanded for the sets currently available for Mustang drum spindle.

 

[bnickel]

i don't want to argue with anyone about it, i was just stating my opinion on what i thought would be the best solution make the spindle so that it can be machined to use the drum mounting points but don't sell it already machined.


Dennis, i totally and absolutely understand where you're coming from and why you need to do this, however i think what you're not taking into consideration
(or maybe you are) is that there literally dozens of kits in the aftermarket for these drum spindles and you can't feasibly offer a bracket to fit everyone of them. some people have the Baer kit, some have Wilwood, some have the Lincoln big brake kit, some have SSBC and there are literally still dozens more and a lot of them offer several kits each with it's own specific caliper bracket, trying to produce a bracket for each of these kits is not financially feasible. i've been spreading the word about these spindles for over a year and i know there a whole bunch of people that are interested in them that already have one of these other kits installed that WILL NOT buy this spindle if they can't use the brakes they already have.

i honestly think that if you drill and tap the 4 holes for the drum pattern and go ahead and cast the bracket in then that would be the best overall solution for everyone. if the bracket is cast in then the people that already have one of the other kits can just cut the bracket off and use the 4 holes for the original drum backing plate. the way i see it that's a no-harm, no-foul situation. you're still selling the spindle and the people that want to use your brakes can and it's an easy solution for them and not difficult for the peopl who have an existing brake kit. are you going to using a stock K/H style dust shield? if so then you'll need to drill and tap the holes for it anyway and that's all that's needed for a pre-existing brake kit to bolt up to.


if you don't see things the way i do i totally and completely understand, after all it is your business, however i do have to say that i honestly think you'll be losing a lot of potential business by making the spindle so that none of the other aftermarket kits will work at all.

 

[stonecoldtx]

I will make an add on bracket to allow the use of the cobra caliper and rotor, although I don't see this as the primary market.

I, for one, am interested in this combination--I currently have OEM Disc brakes on my '70 Retro-mod, and since I haven't sold it yet, I'm considering upgrading it a bit at a time until I eventually do get it sold.

One of the things I've wanted to do was to upgrade to the late-model Cobra brakes, but the kits availble to do this swap are only for drum brake-style spindles.

Will this spindle be able to accomodate the late-model Cobra 13" 2-piece rotor and hub? You indicated that you would be making an adapter bracket for the calipers, but it's a little unclear whether you'd also make these stock rotors fit as well . . .

If you do indeed have these designed so they would fit, then it would be a HUGE advantage for those of us wanting to upgrade to the large brakes.

Can you clarify?

Also, do you have any timeline yet as to when they'll be ready?

Thanks!