351W f4te engine block - what would you pay?

[Gearbanger 101]

Correct me if I am wrong, but a 95 roller block should already have roller lifters in it, not? There shouldn't be any need for any "mcgyvering"?

That's assuming the ’95 351W roller block used a roller cam set up to start with. All of the 302 truck blocks were drilled for the roller valvetrain, yet utilized a flat tappet non roller hydraulic cam with non roller lifters. The same might be true for the '95 351W.

 

[johnny_munyak]

Any way to find out for certain without digging into it?

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Any way to find out for certain without digging into it?

You could pull the distributor and see if it’s got the bronze/steel gear on the end. If it does, its runnin the roller cam as well. In any case....if you're trying to gain any performance at all out of it, you're gonna want to pull it apart anyway. Even if it does have a roller top end, its still going to have a pretty sedate cam profile. Combine that with the fact that its still got cast pistons and the ultra restrictive E7TE heads and you've got at best a bare roller block with competent rods and crank to use as your "starting point" for a decent build. And even then the crank and rods are going to get shakey after about 500hp.

 

[nmcgrawj]

Your post is pointless.

LOL first of all breathe....and relax. Dont get your panties in a bunch. -

Im not nearly an expert...but i will comment on things when i see them. Just like i would expect you to do. Now you told me i am spreading mis-information, you said whoever told me lied. Now you are saying my post is worthless? **** off. I asked you were you going to be quiet about what i said or call rick a liar....obviously you werent quiet, so rick is the liar eh?

The man you trust so much that built your own engine spreads this "mis-information" on this site. He is the one i learned this fact from. Will some guys survive past it? Sure! Just like some guys push 302's beyond what they are "known" for....but the flip side is some guys have failures below the blocks "known" numbers. Why do you think Rick would say such a thing? If its worthless for me to quote the man you tell other people to go to for business then so be it. If its worthless for me to explain to this guy why it might not be a wise idea to worry about getting a 351w engine that is running well vs. one that needs a rebuild....then so be it. I'd prefer that someone shine ALL THE LIGHT on a subject so he knows any possibility...rather than to say "most people say this.....".


And trust me, if it wasnt Rick who said it, i wouldnt have believed it. But i respect what rick does and EVERYONE here does also. Sorry if you think i attacked you, or wanted to get into a pissing match, i just thought it was hilarious and ironic that you tried to shut me up and make me sound like an idiot....when its your own engine builder who posted it. Obviously i've been around the block a couple of times....and so have you. So next time, be more polite on why im saying something and i'll do the same for you....just like how anyone else here should do it.

If his main goal is to have a 351....then dont waste money on a truck. Stuff like when the build should be complete (since it will cost a couple grand) are things that matter. He could start buying the stroker kit and such now and wait for a block to pop up. Besides, his Canadian brother aaron has a block or 2. Dont know what he's gonna want for them, but you can find deals. Even if he buys the truck for 900, gets 200 out of it, even 300, thats 600 for the engine. Then he's gonna strip it down to a bare block and get it machined. You cant convince me that with some patience you cant find a block for 250-300. Like i said before, for that price, this deal is not something i'd jump at. Thats just me, he may not have patience, or may not care about trying to save some bucks...but he asked for opinions and thats what hes got.

Regardless of the bull ***** you are trying to pull, there is good information in all of my posts.

the term "much" is a subjective term, and in this context, it clearly means different things to different people. i didn't realize you would get wrapped around the axel about it, so let's stay away from that word and stick to something that is measurable ...

the general concensus is that 500 horses is around the limit of a stock 302 block. agree/disagree?

so ... is there a concensus about the approximate limit of a stock later model 351 block? i'm thinking it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 horses or so. agree/disagree?

if 700 is a reasonable estimate, then it is about 40% stronger than a 302 block.

You are correct, but if 700 is the roller block estimate....and Rick is right, then what is the 69-72/74 estimate? It was my understanding that the 69-72 was about 700......i have never heard of a factory ford block surviving above that.


The only man with the experience who can put a number on it is Rick himself. I just wanted to post what he posted years ago so that this guy doesnt think he has the strength of the old blocks while being able to make it a roller easily. Like i said before, i'd rather there be more information in posts that is not used, but remembered, then to not have someone be informed enough on the topic.

Pokageek completely side stepped my post by getting caught up in emotions and making a post that has nothing to do our "debate". I agree, i can find many many many threads of people saying the same thing you are here....roller 351w's are a lot stronger (or should i say 40% )than 302s....so reposting that isnt proving anything.

When people like Ed Curtis, Jay Allen, Rick, etc make posts....i tend to listen. Its not to say dont run a 351w roller block....but understand it MAY not be as strong as what people claim. If he chooses to ignore what Rick says...then fine. Thats his choice. Not your choice. Not pokageeks choice. But at the very least i would want the man to know

 

[nmcgrawj]

BTW to the original poster, Rick that i am referring to owns RNH Performance -Street and Race Engines, Custom Fabrication . He's built a few engines for guys on here and is well respected. He does this for a living, which is why i said what i said.


Good luck!

 

[johnny_munyak]

I appreciate all of the input, and by all means, keep them coming. I'm not too concerned about getting over the infamous 500 HP mark.....Hell if I got 450 ish HP I'd be very happy. 450 HP in a daily driver work/weekend warrior with 3.55's and a 5 spd sounds like a blast.....and yes a 302 could possibly get there as well....but how streetable? A good 347 would work too, but can get costly as well.

I'm thinking along the lines of a budget build here....not full on race engine. Something that will handle some torture, but not major racing abuse. You follow me?

I would even consider taking down the stock block, refreshing the bottom end with decent hardware and good slugs, some edelbrock, afr, trick flow.....geez maybe even some well built hogged out Thumper GT40's and nice cam and headers to match. Even having a stock bored, 351 roller engine with these goodies should get me damn close to 400 HP, not? And this should be damn reliable HP. A 347 can get there and maybe even eclipse it, but won't be anywhere near as reliable or as streetable.

My car currently has a warmed up 5.0. It is just a blast to drive already. I figure it is probably in the neighborhood of 325-350 flywheel HP. If the same type of mods are done even to a stock 5.8 (351w), I dare say it would responds just as well and yield me at least 50 HP more just for the sake of the larger cu in?

The stroker was just an option in case cylinder boring would be required. It may just get a .30 overbore and new slugs......at this point I really don't know.

Maybe I'm unrealistic with my expectations, but I don't think so. If I could find an earlier 351 block, I'd try, but I bet it would cost me more money than buying this whole complete driveable truck!

 

[nmcgrawj]

I appreciate all of the input, and by all means, keep them coming. I'm not too concerned about getting over the infamous 500 HP mark.....Hell if I got 450 ish HP I'd be very happy. 450 HP in a daily driver work/weekend warrior with 3.55's and a 5 spd sounds like a blast.....and yes a 302 could possibly get there as well....but how streetable? A good 347 would work too, but can get costly as well.

I'm thinking along the lines of a budget build here....not full on race engine. Something that will handle some torture, but not major racing abuse. You follow me?

I would even consider taking down the stock block, refreshing the bottom end with decent hardware and good slugs, some edelbrock, afr, trick flow.....geez maybe even some well built hogged out Thumper GT40's and nice cam and headers to match. Even having a stock bored, 351 roller engine with these goodies should get me damn close to 400 HP, not? And this should be damn reliable HP. A 347 can get there and maybe even eclipse it, but won't be anywhere near as reliable or as streetable.

My car currently has a warmed up 5.0. It is just a blast to drive already. I figure it is probably in the neighborhood of 325-350 flywheel HP. If the same type of mods are done even to a stock 5.8 (351w), I dare say it would responds just as well and yield me at least 50 HP more just for the sake of the larger cu in?

The stroker was just an option in case cylinder boring would be required. It may just get a .30 overbore and new slugs......at this point I really don't know.

Maybe I'm unrealistic with my expectations, but I don't think so. If I could find an earlier 351 block, I'd try, but I bet it would cost me more money than buying this whole complete driveable truck!

Im gonna work backwards...

I've seen earlier 351w blocks come up. If they are machined...then yea obviously they will cost more than the truck. But a block that needs machining wont cost that much, atleast from what i've seen. For your goals i think the roller 351w will be just fine....just depends on how much u want to spend to get it.

One thing that i've seen over the years is that 302 parts on a 351 make 302 power. You'll have better torque due to the stroke.

Why do you think a 351w can get to 400hp safely and a 347 might, but wont be reliable or streetable? To be clear, are your HP figures flywheel HP or rwhp? That makes a big difference in these comparisons.


The last thing i would say at this point is to feed cubes the air they need....a part that goes on a 351 (or a 347) should be considered HUGE on a 302 IMO. And keep this in mind, here's a story Jay Allen told me at a Mickey D's like 3 years ago.....


He had a customer go from a 351w to a 347 with the same h/c/i (or was it a 347 to a 351w ) anyway, the 347 was a lot faster down the 1/4 mile due to there being less rotating mass. Now you can get an aftermarket stroker crank, light weight rods (pokageek has some in his im pretty sure) and some good pistons to make it a little more even, but all that weight does become a factor. So if you are comparing a stock block 351 with a stock rotating assembly....dont be so sure its gonna beat a 347. With aftermarket internals in the 351w block, it gets to be more even, but at that point......why are you still only running 351 cubic inches?

 

[BlackVert]

FYI, I started this thread over on hardcore to get some authoritative thoughts on the strength of stock 351W blocks. There is already some good info there ...

Stock 351W block limits - Hardcore 5.0 - The Hardcore Ford Drag Racers Forum

FWIW, Mark O'Neil is the owner of Probe Industries and Coast High Performance. And people who frequent that forum know that Outlaw5.0 knows his stuff more than 99.999% of the people on the planet. To name a few of the other people who frequent hardcore50, you have Ed Curtis of FTI, Jay Allen of Camshaft Innovations, and George (I don't remember his last name) from AccuFab.

If I can get those guys to come to a concensus about the limits of the various 351W blocks, I think we will have some good information we can be sure of.

 

[nmcgrawj]

FYI, I started this thread over on hardcore to get some authoritative thoughts on the strength of stock 351W blocks. There is already some good info there ...

Stock 351W block limits - Hardcore 5.0 - The Hardcore Ford Drag Racers Forum

FWIW, Mark O'Neil is the owner of Probe Industries and Coast High Performance. And people who frequent that forum know that Outlaw5.0 knows his stuff more than 99.999% of the people on the planet. To name a few of the other people who frequent hardcore50, you have Ed Curtis of FTI, Jay Allen of Camshaft Innovations, and George (I don't remember his last name) from AccuFab.

If I can get those guys to come to a concensus about the limits of the various 351W blocks, I think we will have some good information we can be sure of.

Good stuff. Just did a quick read through of it.

Although, Rick would go in the list of Mark, Jay, Ed, George, etc...

There will never be a definite answer to the question regarding stock blocks. Thats why you have so many different answers for a 302 block...how hard you drive it, etc all create its life expectancy. A guy could put 700rwhp through a factory 302....but he only races it 10 times a year for example.


So we'll add more opinions to the bucket....i think its fair to say that the early blocks are the strongest, 302s are the lowest, and the ones inbetween rollers and post 74 351 blocks fall somewhere in the middle power wise.



BTW, i've never seen someone say that the quality of blocks picked back up after 74. If anything, i'd say the general consensus was that 75-98 (whenever they stopped) are the same "strength".


Rick is the only one that i have seen say anything about a roller 351 being not much better than a 302. Does that mean we throw out that opinion? Not to me. Its not the law...but i will take it into consideration cause he does know what he's talking about. Because at a time, Jay Allen was looked at like he was crazy for how he designs some of his packages....and now he has a pretty damn good following.



PS- My apologies to the mods, pokageek, chris(if u took offense at all) for being "abrasive" and using sarcasm. I reacted to what pokageek said and how he said it. I should of handled it better, but i felt it was necessary at the time. Everyone has knowledge to give and just because you are wrong, you shouldnt attack anyone else because your opinion matches the opinion of the majority. Outside of my "abrasive" and sarcastic comments, i did give positive ideas on how to avoid this. Anyway....carry on.... :SNSign:

 

[Pokageek]

I appreciate all of the input, and by all means, keep them coming. I'm not too concerned about getting over the infamous 500 HP mark.....Hell if I got 450 ish HP I'd be very happy. 450 HP in a daily driver work/weekend warrior with 3.55's and a 5 spd sounds like a blast.....and yes a 302 could possibly get there as well....but how streetable? A good 347 would work too, but can get costly as well.

I'm thinking along the lines of a budget build here....not full on race engine. Something that will handle some torture, but not major racing abuse. You follow me?

I would even consider taking down the stock block, refreshing the bottom end with decent hardware and good slugs, some edelbrock, afr, trick flow.....geez maybe even some well built hogged out Thumper GT40's and nice cam and headers to match. Even having a stock bored, 351 roller engine with these goodies should get me damn close to 400 HP, not? And this should be damn reliable HP. A 347 can get there and maybe even eclipse it, but won't be anywhere near as reliable or as streetable.

My car currently has a warmed up 5.0. It is just a blast to drive already. I figure it is probably in the neighborhood of 325-350 flywheel HP. If the same type of mods are done even to a stock 5.8 (351w), I dare say it would responds just as well and yield me at least 50 HP more just for the sake of the larger cu in?

The stroker was just an option in case cylinder boring would be required. It may just get a .30 overbore and new slugs......at this point I really don't know.

Maybe I'm unrealistic with my expectations, but I don't think so. If I could find an earlier 351 block, I'd try, but I bet it would cost me more money than buying this whole complete driveable truck!

I think you'll be very happy. Mine should be close to 500rwhp now after my latest mods and I am picky when it comes to streetable. The nice think is that I don't even have to rev it past 5800RPM. Its really a win win. I know I am not hitting the limits and have more to go. I did stoke it to 414 though..and you can do that too if you want.

 

[Rick 91GT]

Wow...my name was mentioned enough to make me uncomfortable till I read the entire thread..lol

My expierence with the latemodel roller blocks showed a much thinner main web, and thinner lifter valley when compared to the earlier blocks 69-74. Those are the areas where people typically split the 302, more due to crank walk or cap movement then the block it's self. It is said the early model blocks have more nickel and are stronger, I can not truly atest to that.

Have they taken more then 500hp, yes but for how long is truly up in the air every block is different. You can add main girdle to help the cap walk, IMO it is not worth converting over to 4 bolt mains in the later blocks due to the lack of material in the main webs.

I prefer to stay under 600hp on the 351W 75+ stuff to be safe, it really comes down to what the car is used for. I have a customer with a 74 block, girdle, 11.3:1 comp, steel rod, solid roller that goes 10.60's throuh an aod all motor, he sprays 200-250 on top of that. It has lived for over 3 years now. On the spray he is in the 850+ range. I have seen guys on Hardcore push a 69 block to 900hp, tune has to be right, amongest other things.

Outlaw5.0- Bill, is a very knowledgable man.

 

[nmcgrawj]

Wow...my name was mentioned enough to make me uncomfortable till I read the entire thread..lol

My expierence with the latemodel roller blocks showed a much thinner main web, and thinner lifter valley when compared to the earlier blocks 69-74. Those are the areas where people typically split the 302, more due to crank walk or cap movement then the block it's self. It is said the early model blocks have more nickel and are stronger, I can not truly atest to that.

Have they taken more then 500hp, yes but for how long is truly up in the air every block is different. You can add main girdle to help the cap walk, IMO it is not worth converting over to 4 bolt mains in the later blocks due to the lack of material in the main webs.

I prefer to stay under 600hp on the 351W 75+ stuff to be safe, it really comes down to what the car is used for. I have a customer with a 74 block, girdle, 11.3:1 comp, steel rod, solid roller that goes 10.60's throuh an aod all motor, he sprays 200-250 on top of that. It has lived for over 3 years now. On the spray he is in the 850+ range. I have seen guys on Hardcore push a 69 block to 900hp, tune has to be right, amongest other things.

Outlaw5.0- Bill, is a very knowledgable man.

Thanks for your input/clarification Rick. Sorry for mentioning your name so many times Just trying to point out to others some of the things you have said over time

 

[Pokageek]

So there's your answer johnny_munyak! The 351, even 75+ will give you greater potential AND more TQ and HP than the 302. Sounds like conservatively at least 100 more (20%). As to whether that is your definition of much more is up to you.

Now while you are at it, and since he was so kindly brought into this thread, call Rick over at RNH and see if he can set you up with one like me! (I think mine was an early 80's converted). You will save alot of money over dart too.

 

[Rick 91GT]

Thanks for your input/clarification Rick. Sorry for mentioning your name so many times Just trying to point out to others some of the things you have said over time

No problem

 

[Rick 91GT]

Now while you are at it, and since he was so kindly brought into this thread, call Rick over at RNH and see if he can set you up with one like me! (I think mine was an early 80's converted). You will save alot of money over dart too.

Thanks for the recommendation as always Keith

 

[final5-0]

I appreciate all of the input, and by all means, keep them coming. I'm not too concerned about getting over the infamous 500 HP mark.....Hell if I got 450 ish HP I'd be very happy. 450 HP in a daily driver work/weekend warrior with 3.55's and a 5 spd sounds like a blast.....and yes a 302 could possibly get there as well....but how streetable? A good 347 would work too, but can get costly as well.

I'm thinking along the lines of a budget build here....not full on race engine. Something that will handle some torture, but not major racing abuse. You follow me?

I could only lunk for so long on this one ... Before getting involved

I see 2 things here that seem to me to be a focal point

1) HP objective of around mid 400's
2) Budget build

I won't get into which is best on the 5.0 or Windsor thing
cause
I wanna stick to items 1 2

347 or 351 NA could do 350rwhp Dynojet SAE with stock like drivability
which would be great for a street car

NOW ... IMHO ... Staying within the NA bounds ... as you move away
from that 1 rwhp per ci you will start to suffer with drivability

At what point between 350 and Johnny's 450 goal the drivability will
cause too much grief and frustration I could not say for certain
but
My gut feeling would be about 400 would be all that you could muster
and be able to tune away MOST of the gremlins

To go up and beyond that 1 per ci ......
you can always go spray or boost

But if you're gonna do that ...........
The need for parts that allow a max NA effort are not gonna be needed
therefore
I say you need to commit and decide before you buy all the parts :Word:

2) The 5.0 will fit without any additional stuff unlike a Windsor

You can spray or boost it as OEM or 306 just fine and get to Johnny's
hp goal

With budget parts such as OEM stuff ........
You can go beyond block splitting power with boost or spray

And if you don't mind something that causes a bit of a compromise
in drivability ... I think a NA 347 would be just fine with budget parts
for the stroker stuff and still stay a bit below the block splitting
range

I will point out this last NA idea is gonna need aftermarket heads
and not a set of ported E7's that were scrounged up somebody's
cousins best friend

Also ... You ain't gonna get to that NA 400+ with stuff like.......
OEM Cobra intake and e-cam

No ... you wouldn't need fancy forged crank and high dollar rods
but with the supporting parts ... you gotta be reasonable

anyway ... just some of my random thoughts

Grady

 

[Pokageek]

Makes sense. You'll find Grady is one of a few knowledgeable people on this site that can back up their point from personal experience and factual data. He used to toy around with them old school set ups.

As to the block splitting part, with a margin of at least 20% --> the 351 comes out a winner in my book - as I stated originally in this thread. Especially NA stroker..but I may be a little bias. Just don't make quick decisions, watch out for internet "here-say" and find a good builder if you want less headache. The 351 conversion does have some bumps to watch out for. A good search will help you there.

p.s. I forgot to mention that if Rick does the work, he will get the block for you and make sure it is up to par for your goals. He threw my first one out bec it was not up to standard. Like he said, they all have variations of quality.

 

[final5-0]

Makes sense. You'll find Grady is one of a few knowledgeable people on this site that can back up their point from personal experience and factual data. He used to toy around with them old school set ups.

Yes ... I did hose around with a lot of that old school stuff

but

While genreal ... all around principles apply to older stuff
as well as the 5.0 and Windsor of today

We gottta remember that after you get the sb built and sitting
on the stand ... that is the point where things get different

These days unlike the old days ..................

1) We got M U C H better heads to choose from :Word:
2) We got a two piece intake with long runners (great torque)

and most important of all

3) We got a little silver box which allows us to tune to perferction

It would be so much fun to take a NA 347 planned out for about 400 rwhp
and see how close you could tune it to stock like drivability

And that is something I have not had the good fortune to do
so
I do wanna make it clear my ramblings above are ... Just That

I kinda sorta think you could have 400
and
Pretty good street manners to boot

Who knows
Maybe one could squeeze out a bit more

Perhaps Wes or Don Lasota could shed more light on the possibility

Grady

 

[Pokageek]

Well.. you are pushing or over 300rwhp with your set up and personal tune on a 302. 347 is obviously 47c.i over that .. all things equal you would think that equates to 350rwhp..but for arguments sake in favor of the 347, tell us what your ideas would be to get it 50rwhp over that with the same drive-ability? I figure this is as good as any thread to discuss that on.

edit - for the sake of the thread - Grady and I and the original poster pretty much agree on "street-able" so lets stay on topic with that..

 

[johnny_munyak]

So what about a 393 stroker? Stroker crank, 351 rods, 302 pistons......sounds pretty desireable and simple to build. With some good breathing heads and supporting pieces, this 351 roller block should makes some pretty impressive numbers, not? Should easily put out over 400 HP you would think??