351W f4te engine block - what would you pay?

[final5-0]

Well.. you are pushing or over 300rwhp with your set up and personal tune on a 302. 347 is obviously 47c.i over that .. all things equal you would think that equates to 350rwhp..but for arguments sake in favor of the 347, tell us what your ideas would be to get it 50rwhp over that with the same drive-ability? I figure this is as good as any thread to discuss that on.

edit - for the sake of the thread - Grady and I and the original poster pretty much agree on "street-able" so lets stay on topic with that..

Well

Not only have I not attempted such a feat ........

I don't have the data from sufficient research that would allow
me to offer comments that I feel would be worth much in our
discussion here

I feel the additional 50 cubes would make not quite as tall of an
order like it would be to seek 350 from the smaller 302

Another thing to think about is the 347 would be b&b so that would
give you a few free hp you would not get with the smaller OEM 302

The important thing to remember here is the focus is not on

Can you make 400 to 450 rwhp from a 347

It is about how close to stock like drivability can you achieve

My common sense tells me I'd need to focus research around those
with 347's who have laid down 450. Contact them and try to get
realsitic or as they say ... from the horses mouth ... info from them

Most likely ... I'd jump back in the self tuning community as those
peeps have done ... or ... they are doing what I would be seeking
to do

I can say this

Mike, I think his SN name is Green92LX but I can't be sure, has a
347 that he tunes with a PMS

Don't know how much power he has made but maybe some info
could be found there

Bottom line is ... you just gotta do the Due Diligence that is a must
before you embark on a project such as that :Word:

AND

This red neck Texan ain't a trust worthy source to use as info

Grady

 

[final5-0]

So what about a 393 stroker? Stroker crank, 351 rods, 302 pistons......sounds pretty desireable and simple to build. With some good breathing heads and supporting pieces, this 351 roller block should makes some pretty impressive numbers, not? Should easily put out over 400 HP you would think??

All you gotta do is talk to Keith and Chris

They've been down that road

Grady

 

[kck6894]

I have a 400+rwhp 347 I used to have in my 94 Cobra. It's the combo that's in my 91 now. It actually still uses the 94 Cobra computer and my same PMS.

I used it as a DD and tuned it myself with a PMS for several years.

I'd say the worst problems I had were related more to the pro-shifted Trememc and the Detroit locker.

I had it down pretty well to the point where it drove good in town and on the highway without any real major headaches. When you'd pull into a parking spot somewhere it would want to buck on you pretty bad, but I think that had more to do with the locker ratcheting than the tune.

The 90mm Throttle body and the 42lb injectors being a little smaller probably would have helped a little. They are both a little over kill but made good power at the track

The kooks headers leaked really bad around the collectors and I couldn't manage to get them sealed for quite some time. Before they started leaking I managed to get 20mph on the highway (60mph highway cuz I live in the sticks ) with 4.56 gears.

At it's peak my Cobra was running 11.32 @ 119 mph with low 1.5 60's. I don't really know actual dyojet numbers. I pretty much that exact same combo on a mustang dyno the other day in my fox but I know the numbers were skewed because I'm pretty sure it wasn't calibrated right. It was a bread new dyno they just got and hadn't had much experience using it yet. Free dyno time is free dyno time though right?

 

[Adam95GT]

Holy Poop.

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[johnny_munyak]

Im gonna work backwards...


One thing that i've seen over the years is that 302 parts on a 351 make 302 power. You'll have better torque due to the stroke.

With the above comment, I assume you are referring to ported/polished stock cylinder heads or the like (GT 40s, GT 40p's, etc) and 5.0 camshafts like the E303?

Suggestions??

 

[nmcgrawj]

So what about a 393 stroker? Stroker crank, 351 rods, 302 pistons......sounds pretty desireable and simple to build. With some good breathing heads and supporting pieces, this 351 roller block should makes some pretty impressive numbers, not? Should easily put out over 400 HP you would think??

Are you going to use the stock roller block's rods? In reality, its just as simple as pretty much any other stroker. Its just "easier" if u already have the "football" rods that older 351's had.

 

[nmcgrawj]

With the above comment, I assume you are referring to ported/polished stock cylinder heads or the like (GT 40s, GT 40p's, etc) and 5.0 camshafts like the E303?

Suggestions??

no no no. Those parts, even ported and polished, are small for a 302. Im talking about AFR 165s, twisted wedge heads, performer/street intakes. AFTERMARKET parts you see on 302 combos. Those parts have no business near a "well performing" stroker/351w combo. They will make decent power, but not optimal power the shortblock could make.

check out hardcore50 for a more broad selection. Do some searches for whichever stroker you are considering. It gets too confusing for me when u get into cross sectional area, port length, etc etc. LOL Thats why i prefer to pay ed c. or jay allen, or another professional to break it down for me

 

[Pokageek]

"The 90mm Throttle body and the 42lb injectors being a little smaller probably would have helped a little. They are both a little over kill but made good power at the track"

Herbert, did you have any trouble with those 42's tuning down low or startup? Any trouble fouling plugs? Did you have the PMS that took over the stock puter or did you have the one that kicked in at 4000rpm? Thanks.

 

[nmcgrawj]

"The 90mm Throttle body and the 42lb injectors being a little smaller probably would have helped a little. They are both a little over kill but made good power at the track"

Herbert, did you have any trouble with those 42's tuning down low or startup? Any trouble fouling plugs? Did you have the PMS that took over the stock puter or did you have the one that kicked in at 4000rpm? Thanks.

There's no PMS model to my knowledge that can completely take over the stock computer...i believe the lowest point for standalone is 2,000rpms.

I tuned a 351 in my car with 42s with the PMS thats....2 generations old i believe. My standalone was at 4,000 but i had zero problems getting it to run extremely well.

 

[kck6894]

"The 90mm Throttle body and the 42lb injectors being a little smaller probably would have helped a little. They are both a little over kill but made good power at the track"

Herbert, did you have any trouble with those 42's tuning down low or startup? Any trouble fouling plugs? Did you have the PMS that took over the stock puter or did you have the one that kicked in at 4000rpm? Thanks.

The PMS has a "start fuel" table in it that lets you add or remove fuel on start up to account for the big injectors. Once I got it dialed in it stated every time right on time just like it was stock. I never had any problems with fouled plugs at all.

My 1st gen PMS went stand alone at 4K the new one goes stand alone at a specific RPM I set above 2K. For normal driveability and tuning running on the stock computer and tweeking it works better than the stand alone IMO. I've tried tuning it both ways and it was better when it wasn't in stand alone for the low end daily driving. Up high once it goes stand alone it seems to work great.

 

[95Vert383AOD]

OK so i read bout one page of this....I don't know bout the rest of ya'll but......

I live in the north east. Things rust fast and hit the junk yard even faster. Meaning they go to the crusher that much faster. Not many people around here drive cars more than 15 years old unless they have been babied or restored. SALT AND SNOW KILLS. I had trouble finding a ROLLER motor myself a couple years back. I payed $650 for one that ran fine with 106k on it. Sure i payed more than i could have if i searched around. But my rockers cost more than my junk yard motor. All those extra pieces that come with the motor that you may or may not use also helps alot!!!

Why did i get the roller motor???
Well im building a street motor! To push the early 351 block to the limit would make a horrible street car. Just ask folks who are at the 500hp with the roller block. (NASTY CAM LOPE VERY LOUD) Also when i build something i like to adjust and assemble it once. Roller motor means no cam break in period. No waiting for the wheel less lifters to grind down (making shavings) to the cam. I wanted a motor that i could build and drive it like it was OEM for 150,000+ miles.

Any of you roller motor guys have to pop valve cover gaskets off to re-adjust Rockers after 30k miles? Didn't think so. The original poster said he was looking at a roller motor that runs with over a quarter million miles on it.....I bet those lifters are stock too. Who here knows someone with 250k on FACTORY flat tappets?

Now on the other hand....
If you want to run a higher lift cam and play near 800hp You can do that with the early blocks. But with technology (roller cam) you get less friction which i hear is good for another 20hp because of the reduced friction.

Theres also the small base circle cams you can use. This works...but i believe theres drawbacks to this such as the physical thickness of the cam shaft and if you do run the higher lifts .650+ You will eventually wipe cam lobes (with flat tappet) which = More adjustments and more disassembly...reassembly.

Either way you'll make enough power to give yourself a closed casket funeral. I just like to "Set it and forget it" no Ron Popeil

Bottom line....a Roller 351 makes a great daily driver...I used to drive 100+ Miles a day to and from work. Over 30k on the motor now and no issues. Not saying i would never build an early blocked small base circle motor....but if i really wanted that much power i would get a EFI 460 out an ambulance along with the computer and make an EFI 460/514 Trickflow makes heads and intake for the 460. That will be my next build.

Chris,

Sorry i haven't been around...ive been disgusted that someone hit my stang so ive been dumping money into my new Towncar until Insurance fixes the stang.

 

[nmcgrawj]

OK so i read bout one page of this....I don't know bout the rest of ya'll but......

I live in the north east. Things rust fast and hit the junk yard even faster. Meaning they go to the crusher that much faster. Not many people around here drive cars more than 15 years old unless they have been babied or restored. SALT AND SNOW KILLS. I had trouble finding a ROLLER motor myself a couple years back. I payed $650 for one that ran fine with 106k on it. Sure i payed more than i could have if i searched around. But my rockers cost more than my junk yard motor. All those extra pieces that come with the motor that you may or may not use also helps alot!!!

Why did i get the roller motor???
Well im building a street motor! To push the early 351 block to the limit would make a horrible street car. Just ask folks who are at the 500hp with the roller block. (NASTY CAM LOPE VERY LOUD) Also when i build something i like to adjust and assemble it once. Roller motor means no cam break in period. No waiting for the wheel less lifters to grind down (making shavings) to the cam. I wanted a motor that i could build and drive it like it was OEM for 150,000+ miles.

Any of you roller motor guys have to pop valve cover gaskets off to re-adjust Rockers after 30k miles? Didn't think so. The original poster said he was looking at a roller motor that runs with over a quarter million miles on it.....I bet those lifters are stock too. Who here knows someone with 250k on FACTORY flat tappets?

Now on the other hand....
If you want to run a higher lift cam and play near 800hp You can do that with the early blocks. But with technology (roller cam) you get less friction which i hear is good for another 20hp because of the reduced friction.

Theres also the small base circle cams you can use. This works...but i believe theres drawbacks to this such as the physical thickness of the cam shaft and if you do run the higher lifts .650+ You will eventually wipe cam lobes (with flat tappet) which = More adjustments and more disassembly...reassembly.

Either way you'll make enough power to give yourself a closed casket funeral. I just like to "Set it and forget it" no Ron Popeil

Bottom line....a Roller 351 makes a great daily driver...I used to drive 100+ Miles a day to and from work. Over 30k on the motor now and no issues. Not saying i would never build an early blocked small base circle motor....but if i really wanted that much power i would get a EFI 460 out an ambulance along with the computer and make an EFI 460/514 Trickflow makes heads and intake for the 460. That will be my next build.

Chris,

Sorry i haven't been around...ive been disgusted that someone hit my stang so ive been dumping money into my new Towncar until Insurance fixes the stang.

Chris, i dont think you are aware that you can make a early 351 block roller capable by getting the linked bar lifters from crane. They are expensive (about $450) but you then have a hydraulic roller setup.


And if u guys checked that thread on hardcore, u can get those high HP numbers out of the old blocks....but for how long. It depends on the owner and how long you want to push your luck....to get it to last a long time, stick with lower HP numbers not close to the block's limit.

 

[johnny_munyak]

Well.....I did pick up the truck. The so called lifter tick I had assumed it to be was not lifter tick at all......It is a broken manifold bolt on drivers side. The motor runs excellent. The whole truck runs great! Until the motor is required, it will remain a daily driver.

As for the motor, it will eventually make its way into my 95 Mustang GT. Now it is just to decide on what the engine will get in regards to H/C/I. I could use my thumper GT40s with the bigger stainless valves, but may want to take some weight off of the front since the motor is heavier. AS for cam, I hear the Ford F303 is good starting point?

I still feel that for the $900, it was a good score? I can strip the truck and turn the box into a trailer and haul the rest for junk and still be ahead of the game....

 

[nmcgrawj]

Thats a horrible score for around here....from what it sounds like i guess your opportunities are extremely limited around you....so yea, anything is a good score at that point. But to think about it, you're over half way to a dart block, and you still need yours to be machined if you stroke it. (im unware of dart block prepping costs/needs)


And GT40s?! What happened to those high HP figures we have been discussing?

Until you figure out what heads you will be using and what intake, then you figure out what cam will pull it all together. I wouldnt run a letter cam....personally i'd go custom but i dont know what your cash looks like. The AFM cams put down some good numbers....but they are damn near just as expensive as a custom cam.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I could use my thumper GT40s with the bigger stainless valves, but may want to take some weight off of the front since the motor is heavier. AS for cam, I hear the Ford F303 is good starting point?

Bigger valves or not....modified E7TE's are no where near enough head for a deep breathing 351W. Even a set as good as Thumper460's.

 

[nmcgrawj]

Bigger valves or not....modified E7TE's are no where near enough head for a deep breathing 351W. Even a set as good as Thumper460's.

Exactly. Look at the lightning HP numbers that had 351w's.....pretty much 302 power (302's with properly sized parts that is)

 

[johnny_munyak]

Ok....then I"m all ears. Gotta start somewhere? If ya don't like the GT40....even ported ones, then gimme a suggestion....same with cam.

I'm glad to hear that 351 roller blocks are falling from the sky where you are, but around here they aren't....especially in fully operational running trucks that could be plated and driven. To me, it wasn't a bad deal. I could probably sell it tommorrow and get my money all back....or even a year from now.

As for being half way to a dart block, I doubt it. By the time I'd buy the block and get it shipped here, it would easily cost me double, maybe more. Sure it wouldn't need machining, but there is nothing saying that the motor I have willl need much either. Won't know until I get into it.

Like I said, I'm all ears for what you guys think will get me into the 400-450 HP zone streetably and reliably.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I think a set of AFR 185's would be about perfect for a street driven daily driver. They'll move enough air to provide excellent torque and horsepower across the entire RPM range and still (with a well matched intake and cam) allow torque figures and drivability in the lower ranges to be very livable. A good set of aluminum heads can be worth 50-70hp alone over a set of prepped stockers....and more yet when matched to proper supporting components. Add a Trick Flow intake and a nice dual pattern grind to the mix and power increase of 100hp+ isn't unheard of, or uncommon.

 

[Pokageek]

I think a set of AFR 185's would be about perfect for a street driven daily driver. They'll move enough air to provide excellent torque and horsepower across the entire RPM range and still (with a well matched intake and cam) allow torque figures and drivability in the lower ranges to be very livable. A good set of aluminum heads can be worth 50-70hp alone over a set of prepped stockers....and more yet when matched to proper supporting components. Add a Trick Flow intake and a nice dual pattern grind to the mix and power increase of 100hp+ isn't unheard of, or uncommon.

:Word:

 

[nmcgrawj]

Ok....then I"m all ears. Gotta start somewhere? If ya don't like the GT40....even ported ones, then gimme a suggestion....same with cam.

I'm glad to hear that 351 roller blocks are falling from the sky where you are, but around here they aren't....especially in fully operational running trucks that could be plated and driven. To me, it wasn't a bad deal. I could probably sell it tommorrow and get my money all back....or even a year from now.

As for being half way to a dart block, I doubt it. By the time I'd buy the block and get it shipped here, it would easily cost me double, maybe more. Sure it wouldn't need machining, but there is nothing saying that the motor I have willl need much either. Won't know until I get into it.

Like I said, I'm all ears for what you guys think will get me into the 400-450 HP zone streetably and reliably.

Honestly, start doing your own research on what combos people run. Learning and knowing what it takes, or atleast having a general idea, is better than getting 2-3 opinions in this thread. Take a look at hardcore50, do some searches, find some 351 combos and the results.

There's no way you should be talking about 400-450hp and GT40s in the same sentence....unless u are talking about boost or nitrous lol. Do what it takes to learn, do some searching on all the forums, so you dont make mistakes and regret purchases. Then, after you have an idea, come back and ask more detailed questions.



OR go to a custom cam guy, have them set u up with heads and an intake (and a cam obviously) to meet your goals.....and dont look back.




Besides, i told you that 302 parts on a 351 make 302 power....GT40s are on the smaller end for 302s, that should tell u something