351 Cleveland Into 302 Fuel Injected

[Chuckman]

Now, companies like Trick Flow have started to make aftermarket C heads... And those are badass.

There is a reason why all the big race heads (svo/yates/chi) are all cleveland based, the basic canted valve design is just superior to an inline head, but just uber expensive and somewhat hard to find (and you can still build an inline pretty damn fast too). The tfs stuff may finally help solve that problem, but I haven't seen any good reviews/buildups with them yet.

 

[NIKwoaC]

There is a reason why all the big race heads (svo/yates/chi) are all cleveland based, the basic canted valve design is just superior to an inline head, but just uber expensive and somewhat hard to find (and you can still build an inline pretty damn fast too). The tfs stuff may finally help solve that problem, but I haven't seen any good reviews/buildups with them yet.

One of the Mustang mags a while back did a 408 Clevor with all the Trickflow stuff and it made decent power. Nothing earth-shattering, but it was a cool build.

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_1111_408ci_clevor_part_3_tuning_big_steam_dream/

 

[ZombiePopper]

The ONE reason I can think of for building a clevor....
Cool factor.
Which, really, a LOT if the stuff we do to our cars is for "cool factor".
But, anyway, its an option if someone didn't want/have the cash for aftermarket heads.

 

[jrichker]

The ONE reason I can think of for building a clevor....
Cool factor.
Which, really, a LOT if the stuff we do to our cars is for "cool factor".
But, anyway, its an option if someone didn't want/have the cash for aftermarket heads.

If you can get Cleveland heads for $50-$75 a pair, it could be worth it. The last Ebay auction I saw, the heads started at $250 or so. That makes it much less attractive.

Do check out http://www.pricemotorsport.com/ if you have any interest at all in Cleveland engines. They have adapter plates to mate an EFI intake manifold to Cleveland heads or Cleveland heads and block.

The heads will need to have hardened valve seats installed to be used with unleaded fuel. That adds $275-$400 to the cost. Then you need adapters to mate your EFI manifold to the Cleveland heads - see http://www.pricemotorsport.com/ for the adapters. The 2V adapters are $255, the 4v adapters are $267. If you use the 4V heads, you need a set of port stuffers to reduce the port volume in increase the flow velocity - that adds $112 plus maybe $150 worth of machine work to install the stuffers. Then you need to modify the heads and block to make the water passages line up. New push rods and gaskets are needed too.

Totals: ( I’m sure that I have missed some things)
2 V Heads
$75 heads
$350 machine work
$225 manifold adapters
$650
If you paid $350 for the heads, that works out to $1000, and a good set of used Trick Flows or AFRs could be had for that price

4V heads
$75 heads
$350 machine work valve seats
$267 manifold adapters
$112 port stuffers
$150 port stuffer machine work
$924
If you paid $350 for the heads, that works out to $1274, which is close to the price range for a new set of AFR's


If you have to change the pistons, this isn't a bargain. If you can run the 2V heads and stock pistons (don't know if this is possible), it could be a cheap upgrade.

 

[rbohm]

If you can get Cleveland heads for $50-$75 a pair, it could be worth it. The last Ebay auction I saw, the heads started at $250 or so. That makes it much less attractive.

Do check out http://www.pricemotorsport.com/ if you have any interest at all in Cleveland engines. They have adapter plates to mate an EFI intake manifold to Cleveland heads or Cleveland heads and block.

The heads will need to have hardened valve seats installed to be used with unleaded fuel. That adds $275-$400 to the cost. Then you need adapters to mate your EFI manifold to the Cleveland heads - see http://www.pricemotorsport.com/ for the adapters. The 2V adapters are $255, the 4v adapters are $267. If you use the 4V heads, you need a set of port stuffers to reduce the port volume in increase the flow velocity - that adds $112 plus maybe $150 worth of machine work to install the stuffers. Then you need to modify the heads and block to make the water passages line up. New push rods and gaskets are needed too.

Totals: ( I’m sure that I have missed some things)
2 V Heads
$75 heads
$350 machine work
$225 manifold adapters
$650
If you paid $350 for the heads, that works out to $1000, and a good set of used Trick Flows or AFRs could be had for that price

4V heads
$75 heads
$350 machine work valve seats
$267 manifold adapters
$112 port stuffers
$150 port stuffer machine work
$924
If you paid $350 for the heads, that works out to $1274, which is close to the price range for a new set of AFR's


If you have to change the pistons, this isn't a bargain. If you can run the 2V heads and stock pistons (don't know if this is possible), it could be a cheap upgrade.

thats one of the problems with the clevor, you do have to change pistons to a cleveland style piston, and they are a bit more expensive than windsor style pistons. in the end aftermarket windsor heads are the better way to go as you dont need all the adapters and machine work done.

 

[revhead347]

I think the Trick Flow heads outflow all of the Cleveland heads by a lot. The Cleveland heads are the 2v, 4v and 8v heads. The 8v heads flow really well, but were only sold in Australia. A good set of those costs thousands.

Kurt

 

[90lxcoupe]

Flow numbers don't tell the whole story. Cleveland heads are a better design. Look at yates stuff. Most of the windsor stuff, with the exception of high ports, begin to stall after .600 lift and are useless without a ton of port work. They work fine on your run of the mill street 331 or 347 but when you get into bigger camshafts the heads will really bottleneck things. Like others said, the canted valves are the key. If windsor heads were that great NASCAR would have been building windsor based motors instead of C3 and D3 stuff.

 

[rbohm]

Flow numbers don't tell the whole story. Cleveland heads are a better design. Look at yates stuff. Most of the windsor stuff, with the exception of high ports, begin to stall after .600 lift and are useless without a ton of port work. They work fine on your run of the mill street 331 or 347 but when you get into bigger camshafts the heads will really bottleneck things. Like others said, the canted valves are the key. If windsor heads were that great NASCAR would have been building windsor based motors instead of C3 and D3 stuff.

and if you are building a high rpm race engine, then i would say go with the yates head as it is in fact the best head for that kind of racing. but for a street engine, or for engines that are not going to be turning 9500rpm for four hours, the windsor heads are the better way to go.

 

[RangerJoe]

My father-n-laws 4V heads, which are going on his 408 Clevor, flow 361/270 at .700. They are extensively modified, but he picked them up bare from the machine shop for $500.

Joe

 

[rbohm]

My father-n-laws 4V heads, which are going on his 408 Clevor, flow 361/270 at .700. They are extensively modified, but he picked them up bare from the machine shop for $500.

Joe

there is no question that the cleveland heads can flow a massive amount of air, the 4V heads especially, in fact ford was going to put those heads on the 400 until the government started tightening the emission laws. but remember that the 4V head was designed for high rpm flow, and they just dont work that well at low speeds, unless you reduce the size of the ports.

 

[RangerJoe]

there is no question that the cleveland heads can flow a massive amount of air, the 4V heads especially, in fact ford was going to put those heads on the 400 until the government started tightening the emission laws. but remember that the 4V head was designed for high rpm flow, and they just dont work that well at low speeds, unless you reduce the size of the ports.

Lol. Yeah, I think he is planning on 7500 rpms. Race motor only, 13:1 compression and 110 octane.

Joe

 

[ZombiePopper]

Agreed,
If you buy JUST the Cleveland heads, it could be more expensive than aftermarket heads.
But they way to do it is; buy an old vehicle with a 351c in it, part the car and scrap the rest and you'd have made money PLUS you'd have the 351c heads to boot.

 

[revhead347]

If you have C heads with a C engine, why not just use the whole C engine? Why bother putting them on a Windsor? Bottom line is that they are iron heads, and they aren't cheap. That's why you are better off with aftermarket aluminum heads.

Kurt

 

[90lxcoupe]

and if you are building a high rpm race engine, then i would say go with the yates head as it is in fact the best head for that kind of racing. but for a street engine, or for engines that are not going to be turning 9500rpm for four hours, the windsor heads are the better way to go.

Thats not true. With the right camshaft and valvetrain you can build a very streetable yates combination that makes peak power right around 7500 rpms.

 

[revhead347]

You guys know they do make an aluminum canted valve Cleveland head now. Flows like crazy, and honestly a lot cheaper than trying to track down a set of 4v heads.

Kurt

 

[srtthis]

Thats not true. With the right camshaft and valvetrain you can build a very streetable yates combination that makes peak power right around 7500 rpms.

yup we spin the nitrous car to 8800 but we are few and far between. a different cam would make bring the RPM window way back!
most guys are shifting 7800-8000.

that motor with a streetable all motor cam would make killer power!

 

[84Ttop]

^^ Exactly what he said!

 

[84Ttop]

There is a reason why all the big race heads (svo/yates/chi) are all cleveland based, the basic canted valve design is just superior to an inline head, but just uber expensive and somewhat hard to find (and you can still build an inline pretty damn fast too). The tfs stuff may finally help solve that problem, but I haven't seen any good reviews/buildups with them yet.

Haven't seen any higher hp build ups with the TFS stuff yet? I've been able to make 1327 rwhp with the 225 R head and that's with the factory cnc ports untouched. Changes over this winter should yield results in the 1500 rwhp range.

 

[srtthis]

Haven't seen any higher hp build ups with the TFS stuff yet? I've been able to make 1327 rwhp with the 225 R head and that's with the factory cnc ports untouched. Changes over this winter should yield results in the 1500 rwhp range.

based on the MPH and weight we are roughly in the same HP range as your expecting

 

[Chuckman]

Haven't seen any higher hp build ups with the TFS stuff yet? I've been able to make 1327 rwhp with the 225 R head and that's with the factory cnc ports untouched. Changes over this winter should yield results in the 1500 rwhp range.

The r head is still a wedge (windsor) head, tfs came out with cleveland heads a couple years ago (powerports). Theyre not nearly as well documented as the wedge stuff yet