cleveland builders and gurus please help

[blackstallion12]

I am going to be building a cleveland 4 bolt main with 4v heads in the future. I would like to use the heads so I dont want to be told to use aftermarket sets. I have access to a machine shop and all work will be done free and personally so no service bills.

I would like to know some of the cleveland builds you guys have put together
*Cams, intake, pistons, compression.
*Dyno#s?
*ET's?
*Experience, Joy, Regrets?

I have an Idea for my build Please comment
(mostly track, little street) (68 mustang 3000+lbs, 4 speed, 3.5 and 4.30 9" rearends)

Comp cams 308r solid roller cam (3000-7000rpm)
edelbrock Torker (3000-7000)
Forged flat tops (11:1)
stock crank rods (balanced and upgraded fasteners)
750 dp holley
heads will be 4v heads with screw in studs, guide plates. I dont know weather to go with stock 2.19 intakes or step up to 2.25? Do I need porting?

Also Im not sure of the ignition system? I dont know a whole lot about ignition I know it must work effectively to 7500rpm. HEI or points?


My father doesnt think this build will be streetable but i have a similar setup in a 289 that i drive everyday... Wont this motor make alot more torque down low just because of more displacement? Will it drive on street? I want a badass cleveland with the stock heads!!!

I am open to all comments and suggestions. However I am sure about building a Cleveland NOT a Windsor. And I would like to use the heads.

 

[rbohm]

nice combination...........................





for a healthy race motor. your proposed combination will be rather doggy on the street until the rpms get above 2500. the 4bbl heads are not the best for low rpm operation to begin with, and with the cam you are thinking about, things will only be worse, even with the 4.30 gears. this combination is a better one to be using for vintage class racing than anything on the street.

 

[EP429]

If you use said heads, look into torque plates. They fit into the intake runner to help the lack of air velocity.
I'd also dump the Torker and try a more feasible cam profile.
Just my .02, not saying your combo wouldn't give me a grin during WOT, just would be no fun for a driver

Another thing to note is the 289 is by nature happiest at high RPMs, Clevelands can dig lower down in the curve to supply that seat of the pants feeling

 

[mystic 96]

cleveland fan

cool another guy whos building a cleveland...i put one in my 89 coupe no prob..(headers where kind of costly at the time..headman where the only ones doing it at the time..(7 yrs ago)..anyway..its was a 72 block from a torino..70 closed chamber heads..you did not say if yours where closed or open..(closed are much better for racing) no porting is needed ..the ports are huge and good for well over 7,000 ..I turned mine 7800 b4 shift w/a 6 sp richmond,,,just make sure you use good valves and good seats..stock valve size is no prob..no need to go bigger ..i had crane gold race 1.72 rockers and the hardened 7/16 crane pushrods...as far as the block goes the cranks are very strong and can turn turn turn (remember its still a s/b even thought some people dont think so cause the heads are so large,,use a good main stud and head stud (arp) and dont worry about a girdle (line bore a must ) the rod jornals are large and if u can afford it have then turner down to a chevy rod size,,(slows down the brg speed) and is just better on the rods..you say you are using st rods...you might better get something better unless they are cj rods,,.i used eagle h bead (about 400.00)..now for pistons ..forged u say ??? they are usually pretty noisy (piston slap) the walls on a cleveland are thin..noise = wear,,i used a set of JE pistons..they are light and very strong //good for 600hp..try not to go over .040 on the bore on whatever you use..now comes the only real problem with a cleveland...oiling..you need to install an ext line from oil pressure adapter next to the filter to the back of the motor (behind the intake on top there is a pipe plug ..take it out a put like an a/n fitting and use a braded of hyd hose to go from there to the adapter where the oil pressure switch would go (go buy a brass adapter to use both)i used a crower 633 lift solid w/313 dur (3500-7500 rpm range...but roller is better..and use aa good double roller t-chain(cloyes makes a great billet one....keep the rod clearance alittle loose and install oil restrictors on the main caps for the crank if you are using a solid ...they usually dont have good oil pressure b/c of the oiling design but you can get a spring from moroso to increase oil pressure w/ a hv pump..i uses the same intake you are and used an 830 holley cause they are cheaper that a 750 dp plus they have annular discharge boosters x4..use a good ign system like an 7al or 6al2 box and msd small cap dist (easer so you dont have to cut the bottom of the air filter housing if hood clearance is a prob..36-38 deg total timing +or- 2 deg is good ..timing curve need to come on w/cam specs..i have built about 5 of these already w/ help from a great machine shop and have had a very reliable motor..this car ran 11.80 at 119mph and drove it for several years b4 i lost a rocker arm ,,lost the lifter and lost oil press.and well you know the rest.......have fun.........just do it right the first time...clevelands cost .

 

[palerider94]

try this site.

Ford 335 "Cleveland" Series Engine Forum

 

[blackstallion12]

Mystic... that sounds like a killer build and thank you for that. So I am happy to hear that head porting isnt nessecary. So you said you drove the car for several years? Did it see any street use or was it only a track car? And Forged pistons arent recommended? use Hyper's? I have heard they are pretty noisy until the engine is warm and this caused premature wear and engine damage?

 

[D.Hearne]

And Forged pistons arent recommended? use Hyper's? I have heard they are pretty noisy until the engine is warm and this caused premature wear and engine damage?

This used to be true of the older forged pistons that required a larger clearance to the walls, but the newer pistons run tighter clearances (such as was used in the 87-up 302 HO's)

 

[Hack]

try this site.

Ford 335 "Cleveland" Series Engine Forum

This.

There's even an engine build forum where people list the parts and performance of their Cleveland builds. The 4V heads can use a little light cleanup. You can see quite significant gains just with minor work.

The chamber volume of the CC 4V heads is 68 cc normally. You may not be 11:1 unless the block has been decked and/or the heads milled. What is your dynamic compression ratio with the cam you've selected? 11:1 is a little much for iron heads running pump gas.

With a 4 speed and 3.5 gears on the street your build could be a lot of fun. The 750 carb might be a little small.

Edit: the stock valve size is plenty big. Make sure you buy a decent set of 1 piece SST valves though. The stock valves are known for coming apart at higher revs.

 

[dodgestang]

Change the rotating assembly to a stroker crank, piston, rods and it should be just fine on the street.

 

[blackstallion12]

See thats the thing... when looking up camshafts they recommend a compression ration, stall comverter (gear box), motor upgrades, vehicle weight ext. But what do they mean by compression ratio? is it the static compression? Cause There are about a dozen forged piston choices for my build and I found several that will produce 11:1.

 

[dodgestang]

See thats the thing... when looking up camshafts they recommend a compression ration, stall comverter (gear box), motor upgrades, vehicle weight ext. But what do they mean by compression ratio? is it the static compression? Cause There are about a dozen forged piston choices for my build and I found several that will produce 11:1.

Static compression for Cam. The larger the overlap the more forgiving it will be to street fuel.

I run 10.8:1 in my 410 with 4v open heads and it runs on 93 just fine without pinging and goes to 7500.

 

[pabear89]

My C build started with a good deal on a D2 4 bolt block that already had the bottom end balanced and 12.5 TRW raised top pistions.
The heads are open chambered(with temactor bump removed) 2.19/1.91 Ferrea valves with double springs
7/16 screw in studs and 3/8 guideplates with 3/8 pushrods and 1.73 fullroller rockers, double roller chain with Mallory dual point mech dist.
High vol oil pump in a 7qt pan
Cam is Comp's 282S soild lifter
Intake Holley Strip Dom
Carb Holley 750 Vs
Headers are Hooker super comp
Hawks alum flywheel with kevlar clutch surounded by Lakewood sheild.
Toploader 4sp with 3.50

Don't have any dyno runs on it yet but in my 3500# Mach1 the tires cry anytime I want them to.

 

[blackstallion12]

Thank you guys!!

DODGESTANG: Do you race your car? If so what do you usually run.. I know mine wont be near the same realm just curious.

PABEAR89: Do you street drive your cleveland...

TO EVERYONE: How much of a difference does an aluminum flywheel make? I know it would be GREAT for quicker revs and I would love to run one but will that absolutely make the car non-street?

 

[D.Hearne]

TO EVERYONE: How much of a difference does an aluminum flywheel make? I know it would be GREAT for quicker revs and I would love to run one but will that absolutely make the car non-street?

It will make the car harder to get moving off the line in normal driving. And combined with your build, I'd absolutely never consider one for the street. Your clutches will have extremely short lives in normal street driving too.

 

[pabear89]

Thank you guys!!

DODGESTANG: Do you race your car? If so what do you usually run.. I know mine wont be near the same realm just curious.

PABEAR89: Do you street drive your cleveland...

TO EVERYONE: How much of a difference does an aluminum flywheel make? I know it would be GREAT for quicker revs and I would love to run one but will that absolutely make the car non-street?

Yes it is street driven and I don't have any problems pulling off from a stoplight or start her rolling with the alum flywheel.
I did have a 750DP on it for a while, But the 750VS is better for keeping it streetable. With the Dp'er if I went more than halfway on the gas petal it would start the street tires crying and the local law seem to frown on that.

 

[dodgestang]

DODGESTANG: Do you race your car? If so what do you usually run.. I know mine wont be near the same realm just curious.

Start
YouTube - Fixed the header leak again....first start

Idle
YouTube - Fixed the header leak again....after first drive

Disco (I mean race)
YouTube - 1965 mustang 11.52 at 118 SSOTN Fall 2008

Best time slip to date
http://www.dodgestang.com/emAlbum/a...nty Show and Go/_overlay/timeslips5302009.jpg

I also drive to the office on nice days (120 mile round trip)...I fill it up when I leave the house...and fill it up when I leave the office to go home It only has been getting 12-13 lately MPG and that's with an AOD.