66 coupe electrical issues

[red66er]

Hey guys, and gals, I'm a newbie to this forum and I could really use some help. I just rebuilt my wife's 66 coupe and I can't get it to turn over. New additions to it are a new powermaster starter and alternator. A new pertronix flamethrower distributor and coil.
When I go to turn over the engine it just clicks once. The battery is new, the starter relay(or solenoid) is brand new. The lights inside the car turn on without any issues when the battery is hooked up. When I go to try and start it, nothing but one click.
I thought it was a short somewhere but I haven't been able to find it if it is and I do have the grounds done properly.
I have been frustrated for 3 days over this. I need the brain power of others to resolve this. HELP.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Az Pete]

Jump the battery post on the solenoid to the front small post on the solenoid and see if that cranks the engine. If that works, then turn the key to run and see if it will start by the same method.

Could have a bad connection or bad ign. switch.

 

[ARPM]

What you describe can be one of a few things. The first is the batt cable terminals. If that's ok then the solenoid for the stater. I have purchased brand new ones and the have failed out of the box. Then is the cable from the solenoid to the starter and last the starter it self. To discard the solenoid just take a jumper cable from the + of the batt to the solenoid post that has the cable going to the starter. Make sure the car is in park because this bypasses the neutral safety switch and will start in all gears.If it starts your solenoid is bad Also to test the solenoid take a jumper cable or screwdriver and make contact from the solenoid terminal that has the thick cable to the + plus side of the batt to the small terminal that's on solenoid towards the front of the car. If it starts the solenoid is ok and you may have a problem on the wiring that goes to the switch wich also is wired in series with the neutral safety switch.

 

[65 fastback]

The battery is new and all interior lights, ect work correctly, right? I think the battery is fine.

The alternator is new and has not even come into play yet, as it will just recharge your battery as you drive.

If the problem was with the coil or distrubuter, the car would turn over, just not fire.

That leaves the solenoid and starter as the two most likely causes.

...When I go to turn over the engine it just clicks once...

This makes me think the solenoid is bad. This is a cheap part, stop by and buy another solenoid and try that.

Also, which starter do you have? Is there a solenoid on the starter? If so, make sure you have wired it correctly.

Also, it might be worth pulling the starter out and getting it tested for free at AutoZone or similiar. If the starter tests OK, then buy a solenoid. If the starter fails, but a cheap rebuild for $25.00.

Tim

 

[red66er]

Thanks for the input. Let me go a little further here. The car is a manual 3 speed if that makes any difference. Also, I did buy a new solenoid and it did the same thing as the one I had in the car.
This car was purchased many years ago and it was obvious that the previous owner had some electrical work done.

Also, this may sound stupid but where is that neutral safety switch that ARPM refers to. I have seen that in the schematics but can't seem to find it in the car?

 

[red66er]

Hey 65 fastback.
yes you are correct in what you stated about the lights and all.

The starter is a brand new powermaster xs. It has a "bat" terminal and a "switch" terminal. According to their instructions they say to run jump wire from the "switch" terminal to the "bat" terminal and run a wire from the "bat" terminal to the battery.

I did this to the "T" and still nothing. Is it possible that if I had something incorrectly grounded in the beginning that I could have burned up the new starter?

Jeff

 

[red66er]

Update.
I just jumped the battery right to the "switch" post on the solenoid. The solenoid just clicked when I touched the battery cable to the post.

This is the new solenoid I just got today.

What I'm afraid of is that I don't have something hooked up right and it might be frying the solenoid.

Jeff

 

[ic237]

Hey 65 fastback.
yes you are correct in what you stated about the lights and all.

The starter is a brand new powermaster xs. It has a "bat" terminal and a "switch" terminal. According to their instructions they say to run jump wire from the "switch" terminal to the "bat" terminal and run a wire from the "bat" terminal to the battery.

I did this to the "T" and still nothing. Is it possible that if I had something incorrectly grounded in the beginning that I could have burned up the new starter?

Jeff

If you have a multimeter do this. Attach a wire from the battery post to the positive side solinoids coil(its the small post closest to the battery). The solenoid's contacts should close. When it does check to see if 12v is coming out of the solenoid. If it does, touch the starters post (not the cable or the nut, the actual post) with the red lead. If there is 12v on the starter's post then its something with the starter. If you fried the starter you would definitely smell it and see the smoke.

 

[red66er]

Thanks IC237.
I need to find my multimeter. Misplaced it and haven't found it yet. I will definitely try that. From what you are all saying is that by doing this, it should tell me if I have a bad solenoid or bad starter.

I never did smell any smoke or see any smoke of any kind. When I first hooked everything up, 3 days ago, I did blow a fuse that was in the "accesory" slot of the fuse panel.

Since rewiring a couple of things this has not happened again.
Does this info come into play at all?

Jeff

 

[ic237]

Thanks IC237.
I need to find my multimeter. Misplaced it and haven't found it yet. I will definitely try that. From what you are all saying is that by doing this, it should tell me if I have a bad solenoid or bad starter.

I never did smell any smoke or see any smoke of any kind. When I first hooked everything up, 3 days ago, I did blow a fuse that was in the "accesory" slot of the fuse panel.

Since rewiring a couple of things this has not happened again.
Does this info come into play at all?

Jeff

What exactly did you rewire?

 

[red66er]

Well originally I had the new starter "switch" wire running to the "switch" side of the solenoid and the "bat" side of the starter running to the battery. In an earlier post I explained what I did there. I also ran a direct wire from the "ignition", the actual ignition, to the coil instead of using the one from the harness. According to pertronix the one in the harness has a resistance wire which actually affects the coil.

Since the Powermaster alternator has a built in voltage regulator they tell you to unplug the regulator that is near the front of the car because this will affect the new alternator. So I did that.

I think that's about it. I hope that makes sense and helps to solve the problem. I'm not an expert by any means with this stuff. Still learning.

Jeff

 

[ic237]

Well originally I had the new starter "switch" wire running to the "switch" side of the solenoid and the "bat" side of the starter running to the battery. In an earlier post I explained what I did there. I also ran a direct wire from the "ignition", the actual ignition, to the coil instead of using the one from the harness. According to pertronix the one in the harness has a resistance wire which actually affects the coil.

Since the Powermaster alternator has a built in voltage regulator they tell you to unplug the regulator that is near the front of the car because this will affect the new alternator. So I did that.

I think that's about it. I hope that makes sense and helps to solve the problem. I'm not an expert by any means with this stuff. Still learning.

Jeff

I see, I think you might need to replace your coil with an aftermarket one. If your giving your stock coil the full 12 it wont last too long. I did the same setup but with a msd balster 2 coil. It can take the full 12v without damage. Or what you can do, is keep the pink wire and just run the new wire to the pertronix module.

Unplugging the regulator isnt a big deal since you didnt hook up the other end. I would just do the opposite, its better to have it plugged up and in place than bouncing unfused 12 volt harness around. All you really need to do is toss the 4 wire harness at the atlernator. And just run the right size wire to the starter solenoid, I dont know if you have an ammeter but it wont work after unpluggin the end.

If you cant find your dmm, you can pick one up for 10 bucks at the auto store or walmart.

 

[red66er]

I guess I didn't make that clear. I do have an aftermarket pertronix coil.

One thing I just did was to take out the ignition switch inside the car. It was pretty darn hard to get out and when the cylinder did come out the insides were in about 20 pieces. I hope that this is the problem and all I have to do is replace it.
I suppose it's possible that the busted up insides were causing the key to short things out somehow.

Now, while I'm waiting for a new ignition cylinder to arrive how can I start the car and drive it with out the ignition. I know technically I shouldn't do it but we are just itching to start this up and drive it.

 

[mtlman22]

yes it is possible, but being since u touched all the wires i would check all the terminals and engine ground

 

[ARPM]

Thanks for the input. Let me go a little further here. The car is a manual 3 speed if that makes any difference. Also, I did buy a new solenoid and it did the same thing as the one I had in the car.
This car was purchased many years ago and it was obvious that the previous owner had some electrical work done.

Also, this may sound stupid but where is that neutral safety switch that ARPM refers to. I have seen that in the schematics but can't seem to find it in the car?

The neutral safety was probably eliminated. See if the car starts in all gears, if it does then it was eliminated at sometime. Below is the correct wiring for powermaster starters. This diagram assumes you are still using the original coil wire that has resistance on it. The factory solenoid it's just to apply full 12vdc to the coil when starting only. If you have the coil + terminal connected directly to a 12vdc switched source it will still work. In here the factory solenoid it's not used to start the car cuz the powermaster starter already has a solenoid built in.

 

[ic237]

The neutral safety was probably eliminated. See if the car starts in all gears, if it does then it was eliminated at sometime. Below is the correct wiring for powermaster starters. This diagram assumes you are still using the original coil wire that has resistance on it. The factory solenoid it's just to apply full 12vdc to the coil when starting only. If you have the coil + terminal connected directly to a 12vdc switched source it will still work. In here the factory solenoid it's not used to start the car cuz the powermaster starter already has a solenoid built in.

Why on earth would someone wire a starter that way? I didnt know manual transmission came with a nuetral safety switch.

 

[ARPM]

Why on earth would someone wire a starter that way? I didnt know manual transmission came with a nuetral safety switch.

Why is that?. There is absolutly nothing wrong with that diagram. The Power master starter has a solenoid built in to it, so using the factory solenoid to start the car it's doubling the application plus you’re adding a possible additional point of failure. I have seen many Ford replacement solenoids fail out of the box. The only reason to keep the factory solenoid in there is just to supply the coil with full 12vdc at start to bypass the resistance wire that drops the voltage to about 8vdc, there after the car switch takes over with that wire is supplying about 8vdc to the coil. So, if the car has a cable already with full 12vdc you can just eliminate the factory solenoid but remembering to use an electric terminal stud to connect the wires to the alternator and main going to the fuse box inside the car . Many people install this wire when replacing the factory coil with Pertronix and MSD units. I have installed 6 or 7 Power Master Starters to a few friends here exactly like this. All are working flawlessly up to today.

Regarding the neutral safety switch, I don't know about USA cars but all manual drive transmissions from 66 and up here (And South America Exports) had a neutral safety switch/reverse. These were also used on the T5. I also remember an ECO issued by Ford to install a "Protection Cover plate" because the contacs were getting road debris,and dust. Check this thread
Classic Mustang Forum + Classified Ads :: View topic - Neutral safety switch with manual transmission?

I have seen a few of them in shows here on the island. These cars are documented as "Exports to Latin America" and in the 60's all new cars sold by Ford here were those only (And also Taunus,Simca Anglias and Cortinas). That changed in the mid's 70 cuz we were included as "Domestic" there after.

You will be surprised to see 64-66 mustangs with a fresh air vent at the passenger side almost identical to the driver side one. Again this was because most of these cars didn't have Heaters (No need in 100 degree temps) and just a few were A/C that dealers installed here. I know, I was there and working for FORD at that time.

 

[ic237]

Simple, The Power master starter has a solenoid built in to it, so using the factory solenoid to start the car it's doubling the application plus you’re adding a possible additional point of failure. I have seen many Ford replacement solenoids fail out of the box. The only reason to keep the factory solenoid in there is just to supply the coil with full 12vdc at start to bypass the resistance wire that drops the voltage to about 8vdc, there after the car switch takes over with that wire is supplying about 8vdc to the coil. So, if the car has a cable already with full 12vdc you can just eliminate the factory solenoid but remembering to use an electric terminal stud to connect the wires to the alternator and main going to the fuse box inside the car . Many people install this wire when replacing the factory coil with Pertronix and MSD units. I have installed 6 or 7 Power Master Starters to a few friends here.

Regarding the neutral safety switch, I don't know about USA cars but all manual drive transmissions from 66 and up here (And South America Exports) had a neutral safety switch/reverse. These were also used on the T5. I also remember an ECO issued by Ford to install a "Protection Cover plate" because the contacs were getting road debris,and dust. Check this thread
Classic Mustang Forum + Classified Ads :: View topic - Neutral safety switch with manual transmission?

I have seen a few of them in shows here on the island. These cars are documented as "Exports to Latin America" and in the 60's all new cars sold by Ford here were those only (And also Taunus,Simca Anglias and Cortinas). That changed in the mid's 70 cuz we were included as "Domestic" there after.

You will be surprised to see 64-66 mustangs with a fresh air vent at the passenger side almost identical to the driver side one. Again this was because most of these cars didn't have Heaters (No need in 100 degree temps) and just a few were A/C that dealers installed here. I know, I was there and working for FORD at that time.

That pretty cool thanks for the scoop. I never been a manual trans kinda guy. But for some reason I always thought safty switches were for autos. Learn something new every day.

As for the starter , I havent messed with a power master but typically a solenoid on a starter uses alot of current. Somewhere in the ball park of 15 to 30 amps in my experience. In my world the solenoid is used to lighten the load on the ignition switch. 15A to 30A vs 200ma.

 

[grainboy]

I tried to use a mini starter from a late model fox, and even jumping the bat side to the power side of the starter motor, I had the same result, click, but no start. I replaced with my non-solenoid starter, and havent had trouble since. Two solenoids work in theory, but not in actuality in my case. just my 2C.

 

[zigmont]

I have a similar setup aftermarket starter with a built in solenoid on my 65. All I did was take the cable off the starter side of the original solenoid and move it to the battery side. I then attached a new 14 AWG wire from the starter side of the original solenoid down to the small terminal of the new starter solenoid. When you energize the original solenoid it will send 12 volts down to the new starter solenoid and crank the car. This way you can keep that "original look" of having the original solenoid in place if that is what you want. Also, you dont have to figure what to do with all of the other wires on the original solenoid. Just leave them where they are.
So far as neutral safety switches are concerned, to my knowledge, US made manual transmission cars have never had a "neutral safety switch" later model manual transmission cars do have a "safety switch" wired through the clutch pedal so it has to be depressed for the starter to energize