Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.
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What about phenolic material, easy to shape and work with.
Hdpe plastic is gasoline safe and good to 250* temps I doubt your intake surface will get above engine temp.
Hdpe plastic is gasoline safe and good to 250* temps I doubt your intake surface will get above engine temp.
I was searching eBay for both lots of options there Amazon probably has it as well. I think most cutting boards are made from hdpe as well.
Or try here...
www.acmeplastics.com
They have a cut to size option I did a 1"x36"x12" sheet of hdpe cost was 66$ I don't know how much you need.
Power.plastics on eBay has phenolic material cut to size and you pay by the square foot. I would check with them.
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huh,......Cutting board. Who knew?
Ordered from Amazon Prime....093" thick,...12 wide, 24 long, rated for exposure to solvents, and will withstand temps up to 285 F. $33 bucks...shipped. What a deal.
I only need it 5" wide...I'll have to cut it w/ my circular saw. This'll mean that there'll be enough extra to build a second one if I screw up the first one.
Says that stuff is machineable with carbide cutting tools....router,..die grinder...(there's gonna be white shavings all over the place)
Ordered from Amazon Prime....093" thick,...12 wide, 24 long, rated for exposure to solvents, and will withstand temps up to 285 F. $33 bucks...shipped. What a deal.
I only need it 5" wide...I'll have to cut it w/ my circular saw. This'll mean that there'll be enough extra to build a second one if I screw up the first one.
Says that stuff is machineable with carbide cutting tools....router,..die grinder...(there's gonna be white shavings all over the place)
Curious to see how this runs without an intake. Will it be gutless down low, or will Mike prove his mad scientist skills yet again? Until next week, on the next episode of As the World Turns.
It''s a perfect world.
These are the gutted version of what came to me this afternoon. Main throttle shaft, linkage, throttle blade shafts, all removed. I'm gonna be able to do exactly what I wanted to do. The injector bosses will work, the main throttle shaft isn't hardened, so It can be cut and drilled. The upper hole was for an air injection system probably for EGR, but will become my vacuum ports.
What wont work as well is that there are only 3 bushings between the 6 throttle bodies. One on each end, and one in the middle. When I cut through that shaft to extend it between the throttle bodies, there wont be support between several of the inner units. Obviously wasn't a problem with the factory system,.. and it might not be an issue if I can get the sleeves that will go over the cut shaft to fit tightly enough,...but that'll be one more item that I have to get perfect, or the shaft will wobble.
A wobbly shaft might bind somewhere... and it would be bad to have a wobbly shaft. (I'm leaving myself wide open here)...
The other issue is that I can direct mount the throttle bodies,but how thick does the plate have to be to adequately transition from the 1.3" x 2" oval bottom of the throttle body to the round 1.625" opening at the port entrance....and given that there will be some of the round port on the head "cut off" on the top and bottom, am I better off going back to putting a tube between the head, and the throttle body to aid in that transition?. I really want to keep it simple and clean and just use a single plate.... I wonder if I can make this out of something other than metal?
I got the rod back this afternoon,....Put the piston on it, and stuffed it in the hole...Now the short block is assembled.
I got to figure out the TB dilemma and move forward..I don't really want to give up the integral injector mount boss that are built into the throttle bodies....................Decisions, decisions.
You can do all sorts of dopey Shizen with port injection. Jaguar did in the Le Mans 3442 cc D type Jags in 1956. Rack and Pinion operated Slide throttle injection.
Ha ha ha
He He He
My name is little John
The Sheriff put me in a Rack
And now Im Very Loonnnngggg.
Nothing to have the injectors pointing to the back of the class, either. I spent a lot of time there....
Reading car books on Lemans Conquering Jaguars...
The Chryler Valiant Hemi 265's had 2.2 sq inches of port, and 2.4 sq inches of 45 mm Weber DCOE per runner. 40 mm Chokes were a 1.575" diameter pink point, making the area 1.95 sq inches.
Sectional changes, an independent runner can stand, especially if its flowing air, or water/meth and atomised gas via your injectors.
At the 400 horsepower level, the port area of a 265 Hemi doesn't need to change, the cam specs, carbs or EFI units just get bigger, DCOE 50's and 46 mm venturis with the rev range going up from the 5300 to 5400 rpm band with 6500 possible at 295 hp net, to a power band at 6800 rpm, with 7000 rpm possible.
Gila Monster is now 2.07 sq inch at the port, with an average of 2.2 sq inches at the port runner. It's all good. A lot better than the stock Falcon X flow set up. 56% more area without hurting the injector postion or the ported heads short turn radius. So the port area is now perfect for 400 hp. Basically like three quarters of a stoked out 331 cubic inch 550 horsepower Holden 304 V8 but with in line six configuration.
My horsepower idols are bluster free blokes who know the value of development. Jack Braham. Phil Irving. Larry Perkins
Larry Perkins went slide throttle, and about 550 hp with his 1993 Holden VP AVESCO racers.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk5n2LsH7G8
That was done with small port heads and a 5 liter block running to 7500 rpm, with power at 7000 rpm.
Today, a 355 GM Holden engine based on a 1969 308 block with Ford style heads easily makes 470 to 530 easy horsepower at 6500 rpm and 485 lb-ft at 4500 rpm, with a cam similar to yours , same valve springs, same kind of scary oil windage, and a reputation for toughness and a glorious Windsor V8 type sound.
Your six will be a straightened out Bent Eight without any GM influences, except the valve gear, porcupine head; your BMW ITB's add to a seriously hot rodded list of parts. Only it doesn't run hot.
I get the same vibe with similar poundage valve springs, similar small port heads making it all gell together. You won't loose as much pwer as you think, and the torque is hard to upset and lose in a long stroke in line six. Even with "peach ports" designed for a 24 valve, siamesed runner twin cam BMW M3 six.
Everything is peachy. Millions of peaches....
And the hits keep on coming...I'm at the point where I can't stop spending money.
That #5 rod bugs me. I'm thinking that it's a sign. A proverbial tap on the shoulder by the little red dude that rides there...
" Go ahead! Run it...You'll be fine! ( yuk yuk),
...Nothing to worry about! ( yuk yuk) Pour the coal to it,...what are you.....a wuss?"!!!
And since I'm not a wuss,..I'm pretty sure that the suspect #5 rod will decide to let go, and swing away....right up until it tries to go through a hole that it won't fit through,....and finds a way to do it anyway.
So I have several Months in front of me before cruise in season...a set of new stock forged rods can be had for 140.00 on eBay,....what possible reason would I have for not buying these things? ( other than no extra money)
They are half the price of a set of reconditioned rods from a parts warehouse..all I'd have to do is change my bolts over, have them weight matched to the existing rods, resized, and pressed onto my piston pins ( I'll omit having them bushed)
Those processes will probably be another 150 bucks, but I'll have the rods,...and that can wait.
But,......it'll be all good after that.
Then I can tell the little red dude to go phck himself.
That #5 rod bugs me. I'm thinking that it's a sign. A proverbial tap on the shoulder by the little red dude that rides there...
" Go ahead! Run it...You'll be fine! ( yuk yuk),
...Nothing to worry about! ( yuk yuk) Pour the coal to it,...what are you.....a wuss?"!!!And since I'm not a wuss,..I'm pretty sure that the suspect #5 rod will decide to let go, and swing away....right up until it tries to go through a hole that it won't fit through,....and finds a way to do it anyway.
So I have several Months in front of me before cruise in season...a set of new stock forged rods can be had for 140.00 on eBay,....what possible reason would I have for not buying these things? ( other than no extra money)
They are half the price of a set of reconditioned rods from a parts warehouse..all I'd have to do is change my bolts over, have them weight matched to the existing rods, resized, and pressed onto my piston pins ( I'll omit having them bushed)
Those processes will probably be another 150 bucks, but I'll have the rods,...and that can wait.
But,......it'll be all good after that.
Then I can tell the little red dude to go phck himself.
Correction....The seller accepted an offer for 90.00 shipped.....Which begs to ask...
How could I not do this?
How could I not do this?
I appreciate that Joe.....
How did it work so well in this configuration then?
Same throttle bodies, bolted directly to the head.
Connecting rods fail due to expansive loads as a result of excessive RPM. Dumping 15 psi on the rod is considered compressive. Harder to control stretch as opposed to being compressed.
It doesn't have to have boost to spin to 6000 rpm...Especially considering that Ford intended these rods to ever see north of 4500.
I appreciate that Joe.....
How did it work so well in this configuration then?
Same throttle bodies, bolted directly to the head.
I dont see any throttle bodies... You must be off your meds again, Mike.
Would the distance of the runner in the head factor in?
What is the difference between the run in your head and the head the vb came off of?
What is the difference between the run in your head and the head the vb came off of?
If it's a half an inch...But I'm not thinking that's what Joe is talking about.
Something about making a long tube to negate sonic booms, and shock waves...
Forgetting all of the side draft webers ever installed:
like these:
or these:
Or the injected ITB versions like these from Ferrari:
or Jag:
or the actual culprits from the actual engine they were on....
This is for you @95BlueStallion ...hopefully you can visualize the concept now that I've posted a before and after pic of the same engine.
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Everything has an Engineering Effect, but not all Effects are significant.
See the crazy mess my 4.1 liter engine was in the two pictures below.
Flitched up like Frankenstien, but it worked great, and made a poor 2-bbl to six intake port intake manifold work better than any other....
My 1984 Falcon used the same X-flow head as CMA's,
and I used 1/2" aluminum "anti reversion" spacer plates to cheap out on a 500 cfm 2-bbl Holley to the stock Weber ADM 34 2V intake manifold.
The intake runners held 35% of the engine volume,
1435 cc's or 87.5 cubic inches on a 250 in line six engine. The runner volumes though, heck, they varied from 12 inches (cylinders 6 and 1) to 3.5 inches (cylinders 3 and 4). Just adding half a dozen aluminum plates with just and extra 10.8 cc's per intake runner, added just 65 cc to the total runner volume, about 36.6%, or 1500 cc's.
It helped idle, mid range, top end, and that was on a log type intake. I also added a half inch spacer to the bottom of the 4412 Holley 2-bbl throttle body with a undevided intake runner, which added another 44 cc's to the intake manifold, for 1544 cc's total. 37.6% of the engines capacity.
Then I added another 4412 Holley adaptor under that, this time 3/4" deep, for another 66 cc. 1610 cc intake runner plenumb volume.39% of the engine.
Then I added a 1-1/4" plate on top of the Holley 2-bbl carb base, and made another 1-1/4" plate, for another 220 cc's.
1830 cc's or 44.6% of my 250 cubic inch engines capacity. All the time it fixed up and improved idle, mid range, and peak power.
Ford's standard EFI runner was about 13 inches long, and 2.3 liters, or 56% of the engine capacity.
The fact is, you can run any thing, and its what happens at the free entry point to the independent runners that governs the power peak and mid range torque.
International FIA Group 1 from 1966 to about 1990 (Group A or early SCAA Trans AM racing) allowed some intake changes, but the engine bay and hood had to remain the same as the stock homolgated 50, 250 or 5000 production cars. In 1987, Holden Australia found the same thing that David Vizard did in 1977 with Independent Runner carbs on Ford SOHC's and A series 1275 Mini and Austin Healy Sprites....a flate plate on top of the intake bell mouths and a metal box to surround them defined the minimum runner volume.
After running a 13" runner Twin Throttle Body engine from 242 to 288 hp on its prodcution Group A engines, it could go to 490 hp on the dyno as an un corked race engine, and 690 hp with a 395 cubic inch stoker under it. The downgraded Chevy LS-1 type intake manifolds still made 248 to 315 hp with even longer runners.
Its all about the Total Combination. You build the Total Combo, then test it untill you get the piece of crap to run. Then you keep optimising it. You don't optimise each individual component, and then end up with a Triumph of Enginnering over Design. "Build it and then he will come" is an invitation to horsepower, not just a Field of Dreams vision.
When Enzo Ferrari was busy making V12 alloy 1.5 and 2 liter engines, everyone else was sure Mr Smith was gonna be plowed under finacially. Hindsight is 20-20. Vision is invisable to some.
Some people just can't see Shoeless Joe Jackson.....
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Look... (And please, don't take this the wrong way.).....I appreciate both of your thoughts here...But between you flooding me with indirect solutions to a direct potential issue,..and Joe waving the red " You're gonna hate that" flags....I'm now the guy caught in a revolving door.
Here is a fact: I don't wanna keep doing junk over.
#1. If there are negative reversion issues that'll come as a byproduct of attaching the TB's directly to the head, that's fine...but please,..Between the two of you will somebody tell me what they think about how BMW did it on their engine with success. I need to understand how so many examples of direct TB injection, and the scores of Webers carbs placed either directly over or beside the intake port didn't suffer from all of this calamity before I find it out the hard way.
#2. If I have to scrap my cutting board sandwich idea, and go back to a tube between the head then thats fine too, I really kinda wanted to orient them straight up in the first place...but that'll mean using a "j tube" to drop the runners under the row of ITB's and turning the tube 90 degrees into the port from there...in effect..ill have probably 12" of additional runner before the port entrance.
( it'll also mean that I'll have to weld up the injector bungs that'll now be on that plate bolted to the head)
Or...
#3. I can use a 90*, or 45* bend and turn a much shorter version up directly from the port..probably adding 2-3" of runner length.
Ideally it'd be great if I could make the tube transitions adjustable, and use silicone couplers so I could adjust the runners simply by removing or adding rubber. Then I can make stacks that are attached directly to the head, and to a plate attached to the bottom of the ITB's...and simply insert or remove whatever length of tubing is required until I get the engine to do what I want it to.
The problem with that is I don't have that much room between the head and the brake booster to be all that adjustable in reality.
Or....
#4. If the problem can be solved with a common air box placed on top of the row of ITB's mounted directly to the head,..( Cause that's the way it is on the BMW engine) then I can do that too...Solves the " What am I gonna do for an air cleaner"?, and "Do I really want the engine breathing all of this hot under hood air?" issues perfectly.
Here is a fact: I don't wanna keep doing junk over.
#1. If there are negative reversion issues that'll come as a byproduct of attaching the TB's directly to the head, that's fine...but please,..Between the two of you will somebody tell me what they think about how BMW did it on their engine with success. I need to understand how so many examples of direct TB injection, and the scores of Webers carbs placed either directly over or beside the intake port didn't suffer from all of this calamity before I find it out the hard way.
#2. If I have to scrap my cutting board sandwich idea, and go back to a tube between the head then thats fine too, I really kinda wanted to orient them straight up in the first place...but that'll mean using a "j tube" to drop the runners under the row of ITB's and turning the tube 90 degrees into the port from there...in effect..ill have probably 12" of additional runner before the port entrance.
( it'll also mean that I'll have to weld up the injector bungs that'll now be on that plate bolted to the head)
Or...
#3. I can use a 90*, or 45* bend and turn a much shorter version up directly from the port..probably adding 2-3" of runner length.
Ideally it'd be great if I could make the tube transitions adjustable, and use silicone couplers so I could adjust the runners simply by removing or adding rubber. Then I can make stacks that are attached directly to the head, and to a plate attached to the bottom of the ITB's...and simply insert or remove whatever length of tubing is required until I get the engine to do what I want it to.
The problem with that is I don't have that much room between the head and the brake booster to be all that adjustable in reality.
Or....
#4. If the problem can be solved with a common air box placed on top of the row of ITB's mounted directly to the head,..( Cause that's the way it is on the BMW engine) then I can do that too...Solves the " What am I gonna do for an air cleaner"?, and "Do I really want the engine breathing all of this hot under hood air?" issues perfectly.
Won't a common air plenum take away from the aesthetic? In my mind I imagined 6 velocity stacks on the side of the engine, looked bitchin. (I guess those would be hard to filter)
I see alot of stacks come with some kind of replaceable mesh filter. They also sell foam prefilters that attatch over the mesh filter for daily use.
I see alot of stacks come with some kind of replaceable mesh filter. They also sell foam prefilters that attatch over the mesh filter for daily use.
There are these little bug eye screens that sit on little short velocity stacks that is in my wish list on Amazon..
The look you are envisioning is the same look I'm going after....its been the same one I've wanted since I saw my very first set of Webers on a 289..and there are little foam pre filter socks that tie onto these.
And, yes, a plenum box will detract from that look..the ITB's become " tubes" ...I have that already.
Uneducated suggestion
Copy what bmw has and use the 'velocity stack' like pictured.
Damn the reversion.
Copy what bmw has and use the 'velocity stack' like pictured.
Damn the reversion.
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