Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.
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Meh,....we all have our opinions, and our likes/dislikes. You were being pissy because I jumped off of the neolithic-era ford I-6 i’d been so vainly trying to make do what it wasn’t intended to do.
I’d have never lost you for a minute had there been a SOHC or Barra six in the plan. And there would’ve if it was as easy to get stuff for as it has been for it’s Little Japanese Kid-brother.
And after weighing that option it was a no-brainer.
I’ve started drilling the holes that are spec’d for the valve body. Only one of them didn’t seem right, but I double-triple checked the location..it’s where they want it to be.
Unlike the same modifications I made to the 4r70w, where the instructions detailed how to wire in the necessary toggles for 4th gear, and converter lock up, A 4l80e will manually shift through 4 gears, and only the converter needs the toggle to lock it up.
The problem is.....Unlike the ones that came with the 4rkit, there are no instructions included detailing how to wire that on the 4l80 version.
So I called them last week.
I don’t know if any of you have spoken to any of the guys at transgo, but these guys are all about 100 years old. Last week, I got ahold of the trans Yoda that runs the place. He tells me something about the Lock up solenoid being PWM, and that you had to add a resistor of some “unknown value” “maybe” in parallel ( I don’t remember what he told me) to condition the incoming voltage so you won’t burn the solenoid up when forcing it to stay on.
I told him I wasn’t ready for that step at that time, and asked if it would be ok if I called him when I actually had the trans open.
He said that’d be fine.
And now, one week later, I’m there.
So I call them..Turns out ol trans Yoda has had a heart attack. * Yoda voice ( Unfortunate he was, get well he must).
I get some Duke Transwalker instead. Annnddd as luck would have it, isn’t automatically familiar with all of the tweaks and jinkies required to make certain things do certain sht.
He has to look at his notes....he has to to cipher and compute...he gets out his book, he gets out his scientific calculator. “ Oh yeah! You’ll need to install a 1/2 watt 15 ohm resistor wired in series, doesn’t matter which leg, and that’ll condition the incoming signal enough so it won’t burn up the solenoid.”
“ In series? I thought old dude told me in parallel”.
“ Nope, in series”.
“ And it doesn’t matter whether I’m applying 12v or a gnd signal to that line that has the resistor on it?”
“Nope.”
“ Cause the way it’s wired now for the 4r70, I’m switching it to ground.”
“Don’t matter”.
So this leaves me conflicted. The One thing I do NOT want to have to do is drain that damn trans to replace a burned up lock up solenoid after I get that big bitch up in there..
I’m sure one of you electro-geniuses can tell me if Duke Transwalker is steering me down a a path to the dark side....
@a91what, @jrichker ?
Unlike the same modifications I made to the 4r70w, where the instructions detailed how to wire in the necessary toggles for 4th gear, and converter lock up, A 4l80e will manually shift through 4 gears, and only the converter needs the toggle to lock it up.
The problem is.....Unlike the ones that came with the 4rkit, there are no instructions included detailing how to wire that on the 4l80 version.
So I called them last week.
I don’t know if any of you have spoken to any of the guys at transgo, but these guys are all about 100 years old. Last week, I got ahold of the trans Yoda that runs the place. He tells me something about the Lock up solenoid being PWM, and that you had to add a resistor of some “unknown value” “maybe” in parallel ( I don’t remember what he told me) to condition the incoming voltage so you won’t burn the solenoid up when forcing it to stay on.
I told him I wasn’t ready for that step at that time, and asked if it would be ok if I called him when I actually had the trans open.
He said that’d be fine.
And now, one week later, I’m there.
So I call them..Turns out ol trans Yoda has had a heart attack. * Yoda voice ( Unfortunate he was, get well he must).
I get some Duke Transwalker instead. Annnddd as luck would have it, isn’t automatically familiar with all of the tweaks and jinkies required to make certain things do certain sht.
He has to look at his notes....he has to to cipher and compute...he gets out his book, he gets out his scientific calculator. “ Oh yeah! You’ll need to install a 1/2 watt 15 ohm resistor wired in series, doesn’t matter which leg, and that’ll condition the incoming signal enough so it won’t burn up the solenoid.”
“ In series? I thought old dude told me in parallel”.
“ Nope, in series”.
“ And it doesn’t matter whether I’m applying 12v or a gnd signal to that line that has the resistor on it?”
“Nope.”
“ Cause the way it’s wired now for the 4r70, I’m switching it to ground.”
“Don’t matter”.
So this leaves me conflicted. The One thing I do NOT want to have to do is drain that damn trans to replace a burned up lock up solenoid after I get that big bitch up in there..
I’m sure one of you electro-geniuses can tell me if Duke Transwalker is steering me down a a path to the dark side....
@a91what, @jrichker ?
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A resistor in series is going to have a voltage drop across it.
E=I×R I dont know what the impedance of the solenoid is so I have to assume its somewhere between 10 and 30 ohms. This will bring the solenoid voltage down to a range of 5-8v roughly.
From there it's all about power used... by lowering the voltage you decrease the wattage at the device. Loads in series add the ohmic values E/R=I so more resistance is less total current in the circuit. This is true because source voltage is the sum of the voltage drops according to Mr Kirchhoff...
Of course the math follows a set of laws set forth by George Simon Ohm but this would not be possible without Charles de Coulumb and Andre Ampere pioneering ahead of him.
If you place the resistor in parallel with the circuit then the total impedance for the circuit will decrease and it will draw more current with no change to the voltage current or power across the solenoid.
In short dont wire it in parallel.
Also be careful when wiring, if you step on the wire you can crush the amp ears... they dont like that, also dont forget to tape the end of the wire up or all the ohms will pour out and you will have to get a bucket of ohms and soak the wire overnight.
E=I×R I dont know what the impedance of the solenoid is so I have to assume its somewhere between 10 and 30 ohms. This will bring the solenoid voltage down to a range of 5-8v roughly.
From there it's all about power used... by lowering the voltage you decrease the wattage at the device. Loads in series add the ohmic values E/R=I so more resistance is less total current in the circuit. This is true because source voltage is the sum of the voltage drops according to Mr Kirchhoff...
Of course the math follows a set of laws set forth by George Simon Ohm but this would not be possible without Charles de Coulumb and Andre Ampere pioneering ahead of him.
If you place the resistor in parallel with the circuit then the total impedance for the circuit will decrease and it will draw more current with no change to the voltage current or power across the solenoid.
In short dont wire it in parallel.
Also be careful when wiring, if you step on the wire you can crush the amp ears... they dont like that, also dont forget to tape the end of the wire up or all the ohms will pour out and you will have to get a bucket of ohms and soak the wire overnight.
I’m assuming you think I understand any of that.
I’m also assuming the last couple of lines was some sort of electro-geek humor.
I think dude said that it was a 30 ohm solenoid. I’m guessing I can somehow put an ohm meter on the two socket pins and confirm that? If so, and I wire in a soldered 15 ohm resistor ( covered in shrink wrap to prevent the ohms from pouring out), I ground one end to the case, and I toggle 12v to the leg with the resistor installed,..and I get.......????????
And how will reduced constant voltage to a solenoid that was designed to pulse guarantee that it will be enough voltage to keep the path to the clutches open to make that sht work?
Bunch of stuff on for tomorrow...
Plan 9 from outer space details that I focus totally on modding the trans.
In order to remove the front pump to get it out, and get to the forward drum assy, The trans has to be removed from the engine stand, and stood vertical so I won’t upset the clutch pack alignment when that drum is removed.
Now, when you go online and see how these guys are doing that, Low budget Larry is standing the transmission on end in some small trash can..How in the phck he got that trans into that trash can is one thing,.......How he’ll get it out is another thing completely.
Professional trans dude has a bracket that is mounted to his bench that fits into the two holes that are built into the trans for that purpose. Once bracketed and clamp-U-lated to that fixture, the trans spins horizontal, upside down, and vertical with one finger.
Im thinkin I prefer that method of working with the trans to the trash can method.
That means that some part of my day will be dedicated to building that bracket.. and I’ll use the engine stand as a “ fixture” to hold the bracket...that holds the transmission.
The adapter was supposed to be here last Monday, but there was some issue with the bull sht order process...( can only place orders through the website, even though I was talking to the guy) Anyways,..the order got missed the first time around, and replaced days later...Finally shipped out on Tuesday,..will be here tomorrow.
I won’t be ready for it anyway...I expect the trans mods to take up the majority of the day....One things for sure,..I’m not starting anything with an open transmission on the bench.
So,..we’ll see how it goes. What gets done, gets done.
Plan 9 from outer space details that I focus totally on modding the trans.
In order to remove the front pump to get it out, and get to the forward drum assy, The trans has to be removed from the engine stand, and stood vertical so I won’t upset the clutch pack alignment when that drum is removed.
Now, when you go online and see how these guys are doing that, Low budget Larry is standing the transmission on end in some small trash can..How in the phck he got that trans into that trash can is one thing,.......How he’ll get it out is another thing completely.
Professional trans dude has a bracket that is mounted to his bench that fits into the two holes that are built into the trans for that purpose. Once bracketed and clamp-U-lated to that fixture, the trans spins horizontal, upside down, and vertical with one finger.
Im thinkin I prefer that method of working with the trans to the trash can method.
That means that some part of my day will be dedicated to building that bracket.. and I’ll use the engine stand as a “ fixture” to hold the bracket...that holds the transmission.
The adapter was supposed to be here last Monday, but there was some issue with the bull sht order process...( can only place orders through the website, even though I was talking to the guy) Anyways,..the order got missed the first time around, and replaced days later...Finally shipped out on Tuesday,..will be here tomorrow.
I won’t be ready for it anyway...I expect the trans mods to take up the majority of the day....One things for sure,..I’m not starting anything with an open transmission on the bench.
So,..we’ll see how it goes. What gets done, gets done.
No, that would be don't let the magic smoke out. The pygmies in Taiwan that put the magic smoke in are on strike. There's no more magic smoke left to replace yours if you let it out. Unless you can find a can of IBM Magic Smoke on Ebay.
Seems to me with a MS3, and a SSR, you could set an input switch that triggers a PWM output to the SSR and modulate that bicht. I'd need a week without DOS XX to read and confirm. Maybe someone sober can point you in the correct direction.
The above will also work, if you want to use a pwm output to do so we can do that.
The solenoid is not an issue, the high current pwm circuits can handle that solenoid directly.
The solenoid is not an issue, the high current pwm circuits can handle that solenoid directly.
- Mar 2, 2015
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The issue is the solenoid is only built to see reference voltage that would be modulated by the TCM. In other words...12v would be too much for it to handle. The max volts would be somewhere around 8v....better if as close to 5v as you can get. Seeing as though it is pwm...you could program the ms to handle that. Ofcourse, then you would be going back into that thing. You'd need to wire the switch as an input to MS..and have the MS send out the PWM at a certain duty cycle. That would remove the factor of burning up the solenoid.
* I have no idea what I'm talking about....I know even less about how to do it.
Drpppie beat me to it....I type too slow. My pointer finger can only move but so fast.
* I have no idea what I'm talking about....I know even less about how to do it.
Drpppie beat me to it....I type too slow. My pointer finger can only move but so fast.
@CarMichael Angelo
@a91what
The main advantage of PWM is that with a simple variable resistor you can get a wide range of voltages.
Since you asked...
Pulse Width Modulation explanation
Buy PWM modules off the shelf"
Generic, all type: https://www.google.com/search?sourc...QaSAQIxMJgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab
Or
Amazon.com Amazon product ASIN B00M6Q8WZ6View: https://www.amazon.com/Generic-Pulse-Modulator-Control-Controller/dp/B00M6Q8WZ6
@a91what
The main advantage of PWM is that with a simple variable resistor you can get a wide range of voltages.
Since you asked...
Pulse Width Modulation explanation
Buy PWM modules off the shelf"
Generic, all type: https://www.google.com/search?sourc...QaSAQIxMJgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab
Or
Amazon.com Amazon product ASIN B00M6Q8WZ6View: https://www.amazon.com/Generic-Pulse-Modulator-Control-Controller/dp/B00M6Q8WZ6
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Thanks for all the info guys, it appears that new Dude at Transgo can indeed be taken up on his advice.
My usual routine...( it’s all a “perfect world” when i’m back to my usual routine), is to get up on my day off, get a cup of coffee, and sit down for the time it takes o drink that. During that time, i’m here, sharing a plan or a gripe. By the time 2nd cup is gone, this thing gets put down, and i’m on a mission.
Either to have a good, or bad day.
The bad day comes as a result of an unexpected obstacle(s), miscalculation, or a blatant phck up on my part. You might look at this and think,..no Mike, you make your own luck...Obstacles are to be expected. You need to make them part of the plan. Miscalculations are the result of not fully embracing the “ measure twice, cut once” work ethic, and blatant phck ups come when trying to jam too much of what can’t be done into your timetable. And when you fully adopt that plan....then the only day you’ll have is a good day.
As it should be.
*And which one of you positive thinkers just sent me that “mind vibe” that made me write all of that positive goo above?
Either to have a good, or bad day.
The bad day comes as a result of an unexpected obstacle(s), miscalculation, or a blatant phck up on my part. You might look at this and think,..no Mike, you make your own luck...Obstacles are to be expected. You need to make them part of the plan. Miscalculations are the result of not fully embracing the “ measure twice, cut once” work ethic, and blatant phck ups come when trying to jam too much of what can’t be done into your timetable. And when you fully adopt that plan....then the only day you’ll have is a good day.
As it should be.
*And which one of you positive thinkers just sent me that “mind vibe” that made me write all of that positive goo above?
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- Mar 7, 2002
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I blame @General karthief as a general rule. It usually works to keep me out of trouble, and sometimes I'm even right.
I guess living by the rule that “what gets done is all I should expect”, seems like a low standard to me.
All day long I dicked with the trans mods, and excepting the time it took to bracket to allow me to flip the trans, got seemingly little done to show for it. And after spending all day bent over various trans parts, I can safely say that a 4l80e is a mutherfcker to work on.
Unlike a 4r70w, the case is way deeper and the clutches and drums are huge. Consequently, they are heavy as hell, especially when all you have for leverage to hold those parts are the tips of your fingers.
That have to be lowered into an 18” deep hole....carefully.
The valve body concerns me. A couple of the mods didn’t go together nicely. One of them is unserviceable should it need tweaking. ( A plug, stuffed into one of the passages that can’t be seen much less accessed)
It sits in the lower left corner of this pic...the thing fought me for an hour..Theres a cap with a pin, a screen with a spring in the middle...I can’t even imagine what it’s purpose is.
The trans had to come apart to a 75-80% level to get to that drum that needed the spring upgrade.
that center ring had to be compressed to allow access to the center snap ring that released that hub. Then, 16 springs had to be pried out of that thing, and then the new stronger ones put back in place. When I was done, the thing was so stiff, the process I used to get it apart wouldn't even come close to working. I had to make a spring compressor out of a piece of threaded rod. This is the “after“ pic.
The trans is mostly back together..The pump will need a new gasket, front and and lip seal,..none of which were provided in the kit. I‘ll see if I can find them locally tomorrow and have #1 son pick them up for me, elsewise I‘ll be stopped from doing anything on Sunday.
The adapter came in..It’s almost a shame. actually almost too pretty to have to hide out of sight. In addition to this flywheel, there is a 1/2” adapter plate that bolts to the tail of the 2jz.
On one hand,..having a gutted trans case wouldve made it easy to put the adapter on the back of the engine, and place that empty case in the tunnel to determine if I was gonna be able to make that giant pig fit,..But I don’t want to take the whole damn thing apart. Especially since once that adapter plate is bolted on the back of the engine i’ll be able to know in a minute if I’ll have a prayer of making it fit.
All day long I dicked with the trans mods, and excepting the time it took to bracket to allow me to flip the trans, got seemingly little done to show for it. And after spending all day bent over various trans parts, I can safely say that a 4l80e is a mutherfcker to work on.
Unlike a 4r70w, the case is way deeper and the clutches and drums are huge. Consequently, they are heavy as hell, especially when all you have for leverage to hold those parts are the tips of your fingers.
That have to be lowered into an 18” deep hole....carefully.
The valve body concerns me. A couple of the mods didn’t go together nicely. One of them is unserviceable should it need tweaking. ( A plug, stuffed into one of the passages that can’t be seen much less accessed)
It sits in the lower left corner of this pic...the thing fought me for an hour..Theres a cap with a pin, a screen with a spring in the middle...I can’t even imagine what it’s purpose is.
The trans had to come apart to a 75-80% level to get to that drum that needed the spring upgrade.
that center ring had to be compressed to allow access to the center snap ring that released that hub. Then, 16 springs had to be pried out of that thing, and then the new stronger ones put back in place. When I was done, the thing was so stiff, the process I used to get it apart wouldn't even come close to working. I had to make a spring compressor out of a piece of threaded rod. This is the “after“ pic.
The trans is mostly back together..The pump will need a new gasket, front and and lip seal,..none of which were provided in the kit. I‘ll see if I can find them locally tomorrow and have #1 son pick them up for me, elsewise I‘ll be stopped from doing anything on Sunday.
The adapter came in..It’s almost a shame. actually almost too pretty to have to hide out of sight. In addition to this flywheel, there is a 1/2” adapter plate that bolts to the tail of the 2jz.
On one hand,..having a gutted trans case wouldve made it easy to put the adapter on the back of the engine, and place that empty case in the tunnel to determine if I was gonna be able to make that giant pig fit,..But I don’t want to take the whole damn thing apart. Especially since once that adapter plate is bolted on the back of the engine i’ll be able to know in a minute if I’ll have a prayer of making it fit.
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- Mar 7, 2002
- 9,432
- 5,380
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The 4L60 goes together the same way, but is lighter. Consequently, the most common failure on the 4L60 (in my experience) is the damned sun shell breaking, which is one of the last parts in line, so a full tear-down is in order to replace it when it happens. Loading all the crap for a GM transmission through the front is SO much fun, isn't it?
Tell me about it. My hands are all cut up, especially my fingertips. Theres so much blood in the trans, i’m concerned that i might be diluting the trans fluid.The 4L60 goes together the same way, but is lighter. Consequently, the most common failure on the 4L60 (in my experience) is the damned sun shell breaking, which is one of the last parts in line, so a full tear-down is in order to replace it when it happens. Loading all the crap for a GM transmission through the front is SO much fun, isn't it?
- Mar 7, 2002
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I think i should just be like the rest of the new guys that pop up on here and pay some mechanic to work on this piece of sht.
Remember a couple of days ago when I was saying something about how I should re-evaluate my work plan, adopt a measure twice, cut once work ethic, and lower my expectations for what I could get done in a work day in order to come out of a days work with some sense of satisfaction?
That's bunk.
I slowed down...I re-read the instructions...And even after all of that...I omitted sht. I still made mistakes,...I still has to fix phck ups..
I left out filters in the valve body,....I had to take it apart. I forgot to add back a roll pin that held the 2/3 shift valve in a certain position,...I had to take it back apart. I omitted a spring,..(which I discovered while watching a Youtube video,) fortunately remedied while the pump was out. I drilled a “ too big“ hole in the front pump that had to have a restriction put back in the hole to bring it back down to the right size..
And this is just pertaining to the trans mod kit...
I think i’m better off scrapping this car, buying an S 550, and focusing only on the things that can be improved with a screwdriver, a lug wrench, and my wallet.
Remember a couple of days ago when I was saying something about how I should re-evaluate my work plan, adopt a measure twice, cut once work ethic, and lower my expectations for what I could get done in a work day in order to come out of a days work with some sense of satisfaction?
That's bunk.
I slowed down...I re-read the instructions...And even after all of that...I omitted sht. I still made mistakes,...I still has to fix phck ups..
I left out filters in the valve body,....I had to take it apart. I forgot to add back a roll pin that held the 2/3 shift valve in a certain position,...I had to take it back apart. I omitted a spring,..(which I discovered while watching a Youtube video,) fortunately remedied while the pump was out. I drilled a “ too big“ hole in the front pump that had to have a restriction put back in the hole to bring it back down to the right size..
And this is just pertaining to the trans mod kit...
I think i’m better off scrapping this car, buying an S 550, and focusing only on the things that can be improved with a screwdriver, a lug wrench, and my wallet.
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