347 + Kenne Bell = stock block?

[Daggar]

Ahhh...Good point...I'd never considered that before...Make perfect sense though...

So i guess my options are to

(a) build a 302/306, which shouldn't have the same problem getting fed by the smaller blower or

(b) Would i experience the same problem with a 331 that i would the 347?

(c) sell the 1.5L, get the Blowzilla and continue my pursuit of the 347.

The 302 vs. 347 should be about -40hp if I'm not mistaken, so that's not a huge loss i guess, especially for a daily driver that still stands to be well into the 400hp range...And my heads and other bolt ons would still work...

Either way I'd be better served to build a Dart block vs a stock 2 bolt right?

Also, any references for a relatively cheap Dart or R short block?

The thing that needs to be kept in mind is that twin screw blowers are positive displacement super chargers, meaning that it displaces a specific amount of air per revolution. Pressure is just a byproduct. Even a 306 built up to flow a lot of air (i.e. large heads, cam, etc) can tax the smaller blower. The 1.5L was setup to feed a stock 5oh with restrictive heads, exhaust, throttle body, and so on. You will top out the 1.5L at around 450 HP regardless of the rotating assembly that you have beneath it. If you plan to make significantly more power than that, then consider upgrading to a Blowzilla. If not, there's really no reason to spend the extra cash on a Dart. I just spent about $2k on a bare Dart block. That's about the going rate. The Ford 4 bolt block from what I understand can be had for about the same or a little less money but requires a considerably larger sum of money to get machined. Fix yourself on what kind of HP you want to make and between Rick91GT and myself, I think we can help recommend a good blower/engine combo to fit the bill (assuming you want to stay with a twin screw). For centrifugals, there other folks here on SN that can help you better. My personal preference for street centrifugals is Procharger.

 

[NicD]

I would love to be in somewhere around 450 to 500 rwhp, still be able to pass the sniffer every other year, be a daily driver, and run on 91 octane...(realistic?)...

I'd prefer to go with the Kenne Bell - i've had turbos in the past and couldn't stand the lag and centrifugals lag the same way turbos do...

I don't have exhisting relationships with a machine shop or a Ford performance mechanic, thus my preference to "mail order" a short block...

I already have the items i listed in my first post, but have a few buddies that would be more than happy to take them off my hands, so feel free to include them or not...

And of course i'd like to keep cost down, certainly not upgrade for the sake of upgrading, but am willing to spend what it takes to reach my hp and reliability goals...

And again, thanks for the help...Seems like I learn something new 3 times a day here on StangNet...

 

[Daggar]

If you will be satisfied with 400 RWHP then that's definitely doable on the stock block so long as the tune is perfect. Keep your AFRs and all the other stuff you have and maybe plan on a block similar to a CHP 306, a custom blower cam, a 75mm TB (intake restrictions are huge with screw type blowers), and a custom tune or PMS.

Also:

Give Bob Kennedy a call at Kennedy's Dynotune and see what can be done about getting a bypass valve put on the blower you've got (I'm not sure that it can be done). If you plan on running more than 9lb pulley then you're likely going to need it. If the air discharge temps end up becoming a problem because of the size of the blower and the rate that you're trying to turn it then you might also want to talk to him about water/methanol injection. The 1.5L is not very efficient above the 8lb pulley but Bob has installed and tuned a TON of these things and let you know for certain if you're going to need the larger blower or not.

www.kennedysdynotune.com

 

[txstang84]

You need to remeber that when you get an aftermarked block its goning to need to be machined, the R block needs much more machining than the Dart block, i had my dart block machined for around 400 bucks with freeze plugs and all

hey guys, i noticed both you and daggar mentioning something about requiring more machine work on the R block? what all else aside from the standard (bore, hone, cleaning, cam bearings (special FRPP pn's) and freeze plugs) is included in that? I know the notches need to be cut for a stroker kit, but that's something I feel comfortable doing in my garage with a die grinder and a carbide bit...or i don't feel like doing it, I can pay my machinist $60 for him to do it.

these are things of which I was not aware-none of the crew I pal around with have quite the greenbacks to lay down on a block...not yet anyway

 

[Daggar]

hey guys, i noticed both you and daggar mentioning something about requiring more machine work on the R block? what all else aside from the standard (bore, hone, cleaning, cam bearings (special FRPP pn's) and freeze plugs) is included in that? I know the notches need to be cut for a stroker kit, but that's something I feel comfortable doing in my garage with a die grinder and a carbide bit...or i don't feel like doing it, I can pay my machinist $60 for him to do it.

these are things of which I was not aware-none of the crew I pal around with have quite the greenbacks to lay down on a block...not yet anyway

Great question. One that Rick will be able to answer much much better than I. I've given him a heads up. He'll be on in a little bit to post the specifics.

 

[shttygtstang]

hey guys, i noticed both you and daggar mentioning something about requiring more machine work on the R block? what all else aside from the standard (bore, hone, cleaning, cam bearings (special FRPP pn's) and freeze plugs) is included in that? I know the notches need to be cut for a stroker kit, but that's something I feel comfortable doing in my garage with a die grinder and a carbide bit...or i don't feel like doing it, I can pay my machinist $60 for him to do it.

these are things of which I was not aware-none of the crew I pal around with have quite the greenbacks to lay down on a block...not yet anyway

i think i read some where that the deck hight was thicker on the r block but im not 100 %

 

[txstang84]

by that, do you mean that i would need to have the block decked? as long as it's the same height, i'm fine with that...

 

[Rick 91GT]

Sorry Andy couldn't get on till this morning...

The R-block or any of the Ford blocks are a lot rawer then a DART, the cam tunnel, align hone, all need to be machined, on top of all the work. They also need plugs put in certain areas and be machined flat...

The DART blocks come with more machine work done from the factory, it still requires the lifters bore, bores, and deck to be done, just like a Ford Block. I also always check the align hone but have yet to have any issues.

I typically spend $450+ on machine work just on the block for a DART style motor, the last R302 we had done was in the $1000 range on a buddies motor. The decks are thick on both motors so you can deck them to your exact needs. The bores on the DART are .010" undersize so you pay for boring no mattter if you go 4.0" or 4.03".

The DART is a better design as well! You can bore them further, they feature true priority oiling in the mains, and they are stronger.

I have a World Man-O-War block on the way for a customer, this will be my first World block. DART is just behind in getting blocks out, but I do have a 4.125" bore 8.2 deck block on the way for another customer, I also have a 4.0 bore, 8.2 deck DART Sportsman on order for a certain Kenne Bell motor

 

[Daggar]

I also have a 4.0 bore, 8.2 deck DART Sportsman on order for a certain Kenne Bell motor

Daymn Yo! I bet that setup is gonna be sick!

 

[Don 95Vert]

First off, with a 1500 you won't need a dart block or R block - a stock block will work fine. You probablywon't make enough power to hurt the block under normal cir***stances if it's in good shape. However even an NA motor making decent power can hurt a block, so never say never. (why in the world is the word filter flagging the word cir***stances - maybe I should spell it sirkome stanses)

I had a 1500 on my stock 302 with 90k miles on it and ran it till about 120k miles and never had a problem and my heavy Vert ran 11.9/116 at 12# of boost.
Then I slapped a 2200 on it with a Flowzilla and really did nothing else to the car except for the 4R70W swap, a Kennedy's cam and at 13# of boost with water alcohol it ran a best of 11.1/123 at 3700#. At 140k miles I decided to swap in the current 393 with a turbo and we took the old 302 engine out. Everything still looked new - you could still see crosshatch in the cylinders.

The other thing to consider is a KB on a 5.0 will never be a dyno queen - other style blowers will usually always put out more PEAK power - but it's torque and power under the curve that gets you down the track. I think the most mine ever did on the dyno was 405 RWHP - but I was more interested in track times.

As mentioned a 1500 on a 347 just won't cut it. You'll get a serious boost drop off above 3500 or so because the air requirements of the engine will exceed the blower's ability to output it. A 2200 would be OK for this. The practical limit of boost is 12# - above that you are so far out of the abdiatic efficiency range of the blower that as mentioned, you are heating the air. The practical limit for boost on ANY KB, even a 2200 on a 5.0 without water/alcohol injection is probably 12# anyway - the aircharge temps just get too high. With water alcohol you can probably go to 15 or so, but you are taking an expensive chance that the tiny spray nozzle won't clog.

Over at www.corral.net there is a guy who is adding an intercooler to his KB with a 347 - check it out: http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=648301 with an IC, a 5.0 can start making '03 Cobra numbers...

Good Luck!!

Don

 

[Daggar]

A couple of those shade tree intercoolers looks kewl as hell. Will have to wait and see if either of those guys makes any real headway on the Dyno.

 

[NicD]

So a 306 with the 185cc AFR's, a moderately agressive cam, and the 1.5L KB at 8psi is doable and should put me around 400rwhp?

If i opted to run the Blowzilla at 8psi would the block allow me to run more boost with the same combo if i wanted to upgrade in the future?

You guys have been most helpful...Thanks again...

 

[Daggar]

The stock block starts getting "iffy" at over 400 RWHP. The better the tune is, the better chance the block has to survive. It's no guarantee though.

The Blowzilla will not be working as hard to make 8 psi as the 1.5L will. Blower discharge temps with the larger unit will be lower as well.

 

[NicD]

Good stuff...

I was thinking about using Swanson Performace down in Torrance, CA for the tune...

I think I'll try the 306 and 8lbs from a 2.2L...I don't drive particularly hard (sure, i say that now ) and it'll probably never see the track...Of course that's not a safeguard to cracking the block, but i feel comfortable with it all the same...

Thanks for helping me work this stuff out with my combo...

Hey, one last question if you happen to know anything about the CA sniffer...

I shouldn't have the same concerns about passing emissions tests with the 306 as I did with the 347 right? A custom cam and emissions legal heads and exhaust should keep me legal? I mean, we are talking about a basically stock engine block so my concern should be more with the bolt ons right?

 

[txstang84]

good info Rick-much appreciated...i was planning on one day building up a 4-bolt block, and was not aware (until now reading what you mentioned plus reading the WHOLE description on the FRPP website)

 

[Marine4u123]

I can tell you from experience that the Kenne Bell 1.5 is too small for a 347 stroker motor. I ended up with only 316 rwhp and was dumbfounded. I sold the Kenne bell and bought a S-Trim w/ power pipe. Did you buy the AFR heads that are smog legal? I know there are two versions out there. Mine is not smog legal. I think you'll be happy with the 306 and 1.5 Kenne bell. I sold my polished 1.5 kenne bell for 2100 with the blowzilla bypass valve system on ebay just to give you a heads up on the resale value.

 

[Daggar]

Good stuff...

I was thinking about using Swanson Performace down in Torrance, CA for the tune...

I think I'll try the 306 and 8lbs from a 2.2L...I don't drive particularly hard (sure, i say that now ) and it'll probably never see the track...Of course that's not a safeguard to cracking the block, but i feel comfortable with it all the same...

Thanks for helping me work this stuff out with my combo...

Hey, one last question if you happen to know anything about the CA sniffer...

I shouldn't have the same concerns about passing emissions tests with the 306 as I did with the 347 right? A custom cam and emissions legal heads and exhaust should keep me legal? I mean, we are talking about a basically stock engine block so my concern should be more with the bolt ons right?

The only thing you really need to be concerned with on the sniffer and the Blowzilla is that the 2.2L doesn't have a CARB exemption. So... take the CARB plate off your 1.5L when you sell it and put it on your Blowzilla. The larger blower isn't going to change your smog numbers at all but the inpector might look for the exemption number.

How you do with the sniffer check will largely depend on the tune. If you're able, get two tunes done. One just for the inpection lanes and another to optimize power.

 

[NicD]

Are the 42lb injectors overkill with me running 8psi from either unit? Would i be ok with 30lb'ers?