don't forget the 255 in the early fox body cars. what a weak kneed little worthless nothing of a v8. my little brother had one in his 82 GL hatchback it sucked pretty bad. later on he installed an msd dizzy he got from a buddy and the performance increased 100% with no other changes but it was still pretty weak.
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yeah gas mileage was awesome with those but i don't think it was very good trade off for the lack of power. maybe if you put in a slightly hotter cam and EFI it would wake it up but what would be the point? well, actually, now that i think about it maybe it wouldn't be so bad to have one afterall with gas prices the way they are.
Learning curve? The Cleveland's no more complicated than any other pushrod V8. And it's extremely similar to the Chevy big block, same valves, and rockers. The timing cover extension of the block was based on the Olds V8's. Don't let your thinking that it's some kind of strange beast stop you from using one. The only part that will cost you more with one over a Windsor is head work, and that's due to the compound angles of the valves, it takes a machinist longer to set up with some operations.65ShelbyClone said:
65ShelbyClone
Founding Member
D.Hearne said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm no more afraid of a Cleveland than I am a Windsor
. I was just thinking that others who do think they are a strange animal may not be as willing to answer questions for fear their knowledge won't apply. Carterjs doesn't know enough about the two engines at this point to choose on his/her own, so I suspect there will be other questions down the road. Believe me, it's hell when no one answers a question you really need a response on. I have asked many that no one was able or willing to answer and it took me many hours of research and sometimes trial and error to answer them myself. My turbocharged and fuel injected lawn tractor engine is an example(but I did it!). I have a 2-bolt 351C sitting in various places as parts. If it hadn't been overbored and underground with open chamber heads, I'd be looking to rebuilt that instead of the standard bore/bearing 351W I have. Doesn't mean I'm not keeping an eye out for 351Cs, though.
65shelbycone;
you had asked why long (connecting) rods for a stroker build. The reason is more torque. though at some expense to fast reving. This is due to the fact of decreased piston to cylinder wall friction that is intrinsic with longer rods, as well as a slight increase in volumetric efficiently, which, as David Vizard,engine builder,dyno expert and author, declares, "comes about because the longer rod delays peak piston speed, and thus peak air demand, till later in the stroke, when the intake valve is open further"; in other words, the pistons in a long rod engine have a bit more dwell time at TDC and BDC, even more when coupled with a longer stroke, and this lets valve events "catch-up" to piston and crank position better, while decreasing frictional losses at the same time. A nice "win-win" for the engine builder.
Longer rods work well in standard stroke engines, too - you just need the right pistons. In a 351w, most stroker kits above 383 CID come with longer rods, but check to be sure, though this is not likey as big a factor as it is in Chevy strokers , where the 400 sbc rod has a poor rep for premature bore wear and noise.
More or less, if you are replacing pistons and rods anyway; well, mine will be longer than stock.
Just my 0.02
cowboy33713
you had asked why long (connecting) rods for a stroker build. The reason is more torque. though at some expense to fast reving. This is due to the fact of decreased piston to cylinder wall friction that is intrinsic with longer rods, as well as a slight increase in volumetric efficiently, which, as David Vizard,engine builder,dyno expert and author, declares, "comes about because the longer rod delays peak piston speed, and thus peak air demand, till later in the stroke, when the intake valve is open further"; in other words, the pistons in a long rod engine have a bit more dwell time at TDC and BDC, even more when coupled with a longer stroke, and this lets valve events "catch-up" to piston and crank position better, while decreasing frictional losses at the same time. A nice "win-win" for the engine builder.
Longer rods work well in standard stroke engines, too - you just need the right pistons. In a 351w, most stroker kits above 383 CID come with longer rods, but check to be sure, though this is not likey as big a factor as it is in Chevy strokers , where the 400 sbc rod has a poor rep for premature bore wear and noise.
More or less, if you are replacing pistons and rods anyway; well, mine will be longer than stock.
Just my 0.02
cowboy33713
Hack
15 Year Member
The magazine Hot Rod isn't the greatest source of automotive knowledge around, but they dispelled the long rod myth for me. They did two engine builds, one with short and one with long rods. They did this earlier this year, so it's fresh on my mind. There was no difference between longer and shorter rods is the long and short of it.cowboy33713 said:
I wouldn't sacrifice the piston ring pack or spend a bunch of extra money for a longer rod, but there's certainly no harm in having a longer rod.
Howdy:
Too bad you don't know what issue of Hot Rod that was in; I'll try to look it up, though. It all sells more mags. What kind of engine did they build?
For me, the decreased loading of the cylinder walls and thus decreased wear will be reason enough to give myself the avantage of longer rods when I build my 351w stroker; a longer stroke causes other changes in geometry that should not go uncorrected, and longer rods help, even before other proported gains.
cowboy33713
Too bad you don't know what issue of Hot Rod that was in; I'll try to look it up, though. It all sells more mags. What kind of engine did they build?
For me, the decreased loading of the cylinder walls and thus decreased wear will be reason enough to give myself the avantage of longer rods when I build my 351w stroker; a longer stroke causes other changes in geometry that should not go uncorrected, and longer rods help, even before other proported gains.
cowboy33713
Hack
15 Year Member
I totally agree with your cylinder wall loading statement and it's a great reason to go with longer rods if available.cowboy33713 said:
IIRC Hot Rod built two identical big block Chevies - identical except for rod length. I'm sure the fact that it wasn't Ford engines will not surprise anyone.
OK, I guess we have gone from which is better... 351W or 351C? To talking about the 351W and stroking it 
I agree with most if not all here, the Windsor is the way to go. But, (I might be stirring the pot) does anyone have any more input which is better? Or even better, input on the 351C! The only experience I have with the Cleveland was in High School back in the 80's. It was a 2V in my 73 Mustang Grande, me and a buddy rebuilt it and put an Eldebrock intake and Holley 600 on it. It worked out OK, but I expected more from it. Then again I was a teenager and I didn't know squat about motors. I'm sure the motor was fine, it was the rest of the package that suffered... FMX transmission and open diff. 8" rearend. The build on the 351C was pretty easy for a couple of teenagers that didn't know sheet! But I must admit if I could find a kit that would allow me to EFI a Cleveland I might consider it. Does anyone know if such and animal exists?
I agree with most if not all here, the Windsor is the way to go. But, (I might be stirring the pot) does anyone have any more input which is better? Or even better, input on the 351C! The only experience I have with the Cleveland was in High School back in the 80's. It was a 2V in my 73 Mustang Grande, me and a buddy rebuilt it and put an Eldebrock intake and Holley 600 on it. It worked out OK, but I expected more from it. Then again I was a teenager and I didn't know squat about motors. I'm sure the motor was fine, it was the rest of the package that suffered... FMX transmission and open diff. 8" rearend. The build on the 351C was pretty easy for a couple of teenagers that didn't know sheet! But I must admit if I could find a kit that would allow me to EFI a Cleveland I might consider it. Does anyone know if such and animal exists?
65ShelbyClone
Founding Member
Nemesis67 said:
Neither is really better than the other; you can do the same things with both. The Cleveland has much larger ports and valves as standard and the main bearings are smaller and better suited for high rpm use. The 4V Cleveland has closed-chamber heads and even larger ports than the 2V. Both have canted valves whereas the Windsors have inline. The blocks are quite a bit different from 351Ws, but the bellhousing and motor mounts are the same. I have remnants of a 2V 351C lying around I guess I could snap some pics of. I already have some somewhere....
There aren't any long-runner EFI intakes for Clevelands, but you can get carb-style intakes with injector bungs. Somewhere in my bookmarks is a site documenting the buildup of an EFI Pantera.
Nemesis67 said:OK, I guess we have gone from which is better... 351W or 351C? To talking about the 351W and stroking it
well if you wanna compare pure stock to pure stock, the cleveland will almost always come out on top because the heads glow so much better than any stock windsor head ever did. with the new aftermarket windsor heads the difference is no longer as big as it once was, however the aftermarket is starting to catch up for the clevelands again and there are all kinds of parts for them now. there are also EFI conversions out now as well, www.massfloefi.com is one and edelbrock is supposed to be working on proflo system as well. there are some good aftermarket cleveland heads out as well, edelbrock is making some and there is another company called CHI from down under that is big time into cleveland heads too. another option for EFI on a cleveland is the holley commander 950 pro-jection system you can even use the ignition control feature as well by using a TFI dizzy from an EFI truck 460 engine.
anymore, it really comes down to personal preference and what you have laying around. if the car had a cleveland originally and you want to keep it but just update with late model goodies like better heads and EFI, even a roller cam, it's all possible now although it's pretty pricey most of the stuff is pretty even with teh aftermarket windsor stuff except the heads, they are pretty expensive
Hack
15 Year Member
The Cleveland's big advantage is canted valves. In 2003 when Nascar allowed the Ford engines to be upgraded, the change was made to a Cleveland style head. Also, CHI Cleveland-headed Fords have dominated the Engine Masters competition put on by Popular Hot Rodding magazine.
The Windsor is more common, so if you are doing a mild street build with cast iron heads you can get by a little cheaper. The Cleveland with factory 4V closed chamber iron heads will out perform it, though.
The Windsor is more common, so if you are doing a mild street build with cast iron heads you can get by a little cheaper. The Cleveland with factory 4V closed chamber iron heads will out perform it, though.
69gmachine
Member
One of the biggest problems with the Cleveland blocks is they had a lot of problems with core shift. That coupled with the thin wall casting causes many of them to overheat when bored over the standard .030. The quality of the Windsor blocks is generally much better. Then there is availability. The Clevelands went out of production in '74, the Windsor in '96, so it's a lot easier to find a rebuildable Windsor core. IMO you definitely need to do a sonic inspection before putting $ into machining a 40+ year old Cleveland block. And last, the cast in timing cover make a stock Cleveland block heavier than a stock Windsor block.
As far as heads go, I don't think it's fair to claim the Yates head as a "Cleveland" head. You can't bolt up a stock intake or exhaust system to them, you can't use stock length pushrods or head bolts, and even the cant was changed so you can't use stock pushrod guide plates either. They are racing heads and require dedicated racing parts, same as if they went on a Windsor block. On the other hand, there are at least 2 aftermarket Cleveland aluminum heads now that will bolt up to stock intake and exhaust manifolds, and do retain the original valve cant.
On the plus side, the smaller main journals generate less friction and all of the blocks were cast with bosses for 4 bolt mains, although most only came with 2 bolts. If you want the uniqueness factor, go Cleveland, but be prepared to pay for it.
As far as heads go, I don't think it's fair to claim the Yates head as a "Cleveland" head. You can't bolt up a stock intake or exhaust system to them, you can't use stock length pushrods or head bolts, and even the cant was changed so you can't use stock pushrod guide plates either. They are racing heads and require dedicated racing parts, same as if they went on a Windsor block. On the other hand, there are at least 2 aftermarket Cleveland aluminum heads now that will bolt up to stock intake and exhaust manifolds, and do retain the original valve cant.
On the plus side, the smaller main journals generate less friction and all of the blocks were cast with bosses for 4 bolt mains, although most only came with 2 bolts. If you want the uniqueness factor, go Cleveland, but be prepared to pay for it.
Hack
15 Year Member
My source:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us30439.htm
Yes, you are right. Ford has been running Cleveland style heads for a long time. However, they were recently allowed to replace their existing heads with a "new" head, and they are still going to be using a Cleveland style head. I had it wrong.
However, my point was that canted valves are superior to inline valves. Even 35 years after the Cleveland was introduced, the basic design is still the preferred choice.
69gmachine - I have read a lot about Clevelands, and there may be core shift, but there also is in every other block cast in the 70s. I have never heard of overheating problems. Also the Cleveland block is stronger than a Windsor block.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us30439.htm
Yes, you are right. Ford has been running Cleveland style heads for a long time. However, they were recently allowed to replace their existing heads with a "new" head, and they are still going to be using a Cleveland style head. I had it wrong.
However, my point was that canted valves are superior to inline valves. Even 35 years after the Cleveland was introduced, the basic design is still the preferred choice.
69gmachine - I have read a lot about Clevelands, and there may be core shift, but there also is in every other block cast in the 70s. I have never heard of overheating problems. Also the Cleveland block is stronger than a Windsor block.
65ShelbyClone
Founding Member
69gmachine said:
From what I have seen, the "maximum effort" heads like Yates usually do not come finished or ready to install unless they are on a Yates-built lease engine. The limited number of sellers I have seen for them had prices approaching $15,000 and that I suspect was their more mainstream finished stuff, not hush-hush secret NASCAR parts.
Hack said:
That does seem to be the case, but the Windsor has the benefit of more people splitting them and finding the definite failure point. Clevelands seem to have weak cylinders more than anything(thin-wall casting and core-shift remember). I have heard of some pulling rear webs out, but don't know if that is the rule or exception. I've heard of some in the 750hp range breaking and some at 900+ alive and well.
Hack said:
cleveland block stronger than a windsor? not a snowball's chance in hell. i've split cylinder walls in cleveland blocks before but i've never split a windsor block. clevelands are notorioulsy thin especially in the cylinder wall area. that's why it is very recommended to have a cleveland block sonic checked when boring over .030. even .030 can cause overheating problems in a cleve.
Hack
15 Year Member
Are you a pro builder? How many Clevelands vs. how many Windsors have you built? Why so many? Were they race engines, or did they just not last long? How much hp did each make? Are you saying you've built 2 or 3 or more Clevelands that split cylinder walls? Possibly after the first problem you had you should have figured out how to prevent it from happening again.bnickel said:
Not sure about your personal experience, but generally engine builders say that the C is stronger. There is always a possibility of a single block here or there having problems, but that doesn't mean they are all the same. I've heard of Cs bored 0.060" and more without problems in high rpm performance builds. Race engines should probably be partially filled, though.
The C might not be a lot stronger, but they are at least close. A factory-headed C can make a lot more power than a factory-headed W, enough power to endanger the block. That is probably where the myth of a weak Cleveland block comes from.
