Engine 351 Swap Headache

[joetrainer31]

So I'm doing the 351 swap, and getting ready to put on the oil pan for the swap (from Latemodel restoration), when I noticed that a stock 351 oil pump will not fit inside the pan.

I called latemodel about the issue and got 2 different answers from 2 different people. They sell a 351 swap pump one guy told me. However, in small writing the site says that it will not fir the swap pan. The other guy said to use a 302 oil pump, but I dont think it will clear the crank. Any ideas? I'm stuck and Latemodel has no idea how to resolve the issue.

 

[Dacon]

Most guys use a standard volume 302 pump from what I've read (was looking into 351w strokers before looking at boost) but I don't have any experience with it.

Found this, no clue how accurate it is, and assuming the FMR (fords) pan is similar to what you got from LRS. Also, most guys note very little PSI difference from a high volume to standard, with temps not changing.

A high volume oil pump WILL NOT clear the FMS pan. If you want to run an HV pump, you must either modify the pan, or buy a Canton or similar pan, for many dollars more. The modifications just include cutting down the front drain bolt, and welding on a corner to the pan to clear the pump housing.

 

[joetrainer31]

Most guys use a standard volume 302 pump from what I've read (was looking into 351w strokers before looking at boost) but I don't have any experience with it.

Found this, no clue how accurate it is, and assuming the FMR (fords) pan is similar to what you got from LRS. Also, most guys note very little PSI difference from a high volume to standard, with temps not changing.

Thank you for the info. At this point I simply do not care if its high volume or not. Actually, I never did care about that because with my mild build its splitting hairs. As a side note, the LRS swap oil pan is the FMR pan kit.

What boggles me is that there is no possible way that other guys use a standard 302 oil pump. It is at least 1" shy of clearing the crank. It simply doesn't fit. I'm still stuck with no option for an oil pump.

Any other ideas? Surely someone has solved this issue before.

 

[Dacon]

Read a thread this morning (different forum), some guys had fit issues with FRP pan + stock pump, others did not. Post 8, and post 16 on how they hammered/grinded it to a fit - http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/661114-problems-351-fox-body-oil-pumps.html

 

[joetrainer31]

Read a thread this morning (different forum), some guys had fit issues with FRP pan + stock pump, others did not. Post 8, and post 16 on how they hammered/grinded it to a fit - http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8-engine-tech/661114-problems-351-fox-body-oil-pumps.html

Ok. I read the thread. Its was helpful. It seems that some have fitment issues and some do not. There must be casting variations in the pans and/or pumps from unit batch to batch. I didn't want to have to grind a pump or dimple a pan, but its looking like the only options.

I know one thing, a 302 oil pump, which is what parts suppliers keep trying to sell me, will in no way clear a 351 crank. Thanks for the link!

 

[Dacon]

Long shot, what about finding a wrecked 351w crown vic and trying it's pan/pump?

 

[joetrainer31]

Long shot, what about finding a wrecked 351w crown vic and trying it's pan/pump?

I think you might be onto something. I was just informed by Late Model Restoration that the 351w swap pan kit from Ford is from a 1991 Crown Vic w/351. Thus, the pump for that year/make/model should fit too.

Now, i'm not totally tossing Late model under the bus because they have been very helpful during the built, however, it took several tries to get the fitment question answered. I had 3 reps telling me 3 different answers including the use of a 302 oil pump!

I've got the Crown Vic oil pump on the way. I'll update on fitment. One lesson that can be gleaned from this is to personally check part fitment because sometimes the parts guys simply do not know what works vs what doesn't -even the guys at Late model.

 

[Dacon]

LRS, won't deal with them again... ignorant and arrogant customer service. While calling to complain (missing pieces) and being told to buy them locally at my own cost they would not resend. I said I would never buy another part from them... their reply on the phone after trying every way to explain they weren't at fault (they were) was "We're sorry you think our relationship is so fragile you would let this one experience prevent you from ordering again" Seriously? How the is that a proper, professional and mature response to a valid complaint?

AM seems to be much easier to deal with, but with availability of parts it's tough to go with one or the other all the time. SummitRacing tends to have a lot asd well, always hear good about Summit but I've never tried them.

 

[joetrainer31]

LRS, won't deal with them again... ignorant and arrogant customer service. While calling to complain (missing pieces) and being told to buy them locally at my own cost they would not resend. I said I would never buy another part from them... their reply on the phone after trying every way to explain they weren't at fault (they were) was "We're sorry you think our relationship is so fragile you would let this one experience prevent you from ordering again" Seriously? How the **** is that a proper, professional and mature response to a valid complaint?

AM seems to be much easier to deal with, but with availability of parts it's tough to go with one or the other all the time. SummitRacing tends to have a lot asd well, always hear good about Summit but I've never tried them.

Bingo! The [only] pump that will fit under the Ford 351 swap oil pan and clear the crank is an oil pump from a 1991 Crown Vic 5.8L. It must be a standard volume pump because the high volume pump will not fit.

When I say "fit," I mean without grinding the pump or shaping (i.e., hammering) the pan. The pan is from a '91 Crown Vic so it only makes sense that the pump fits. The issue is, nobody bothers to give out that little gem of info.

Just for future reader's benefit, NO, a 302 pump from a Mustang, or any other 302 pump WILL NOT clear a 351 crank. Please don't let other Stangers or parts guys tell you it does.

 

[revhead347]

Good info to know. What you are experiencing is normal. Getting things to fit under the oil pan seems to be the most common problem I run into putting engines together.

Kurt

 

[joetrainer31]

Good info to know. What you are experiencing is normal. Getting things to fit under the oil pan seems to be the most common problem I run into putting engines together.

Kurt

I also went ahead and installed offset steering rack bushings because some guys seem to have the oil pan hit the rack while others do not. I didn't want to be one of those guys whose pan hits. Plus, they are urethane so they will stiffen things up.

 

[revhead347]

Also good info to know. Everything in the oil pan needs 1/4" of clearance. Masking tape over any questionable areas, apply play-doh to the tape and test fit the oil pan before you finalize your build. A big ass hammer can correct most oil pan clearance issues.

Kurt

 

[joetrainer31]

New Question: My valve covers do not fit now that I've installed Proform 1.6 RRs. Before I had Crane 1.72 and they fit fine. I switched rockers because I'm going to be using an E cam in my dmog legal 351. If I use the 1.72 the lift will be .538. I'm thinking that's too high for a daily driver. The 1.6 keep the lift at .498.

What valve covers will fit the rockers and still fit under my GT40 intake manifold?

 

[revhead347]

The Trick Flow valve covers fit. They give you maximum rocker clearance with maximum intake clearance. Most importantly, they clear the stock alternator location on an SN95. You have to drill your own hole for the oil fill tube.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-block...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2344725d7f&vxp=mtr

Kurt

 

[joetrainer31]

The Trick Flow valve covers fit. They give you maximum rocker clearance with maximum intake clearance. Most importantly, they clear the stock alternator location on an SN95. You have to drill your own hole for the oil fill tube.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-block...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2344725d7f&vxp=mtr

Kurt

Thanks Kurt. That's good to know. I ended up using the stock valve covers and putting my Ford/Crane 1.7RRs back on. I didn't want that much lift on the street (w/E303), but time is of the essence. The 1.7RRs fit fine.

 

[joetrainer31]

The Trick Flow valve covers fit. They give you maximum rocker clearance with maximum intake clearance. Most importantly, they clear the stock alternator location on an SN95. You have to drill your own hole for the oil fill tube.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-block...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2344725d7f&vxp=mtr

Yep, the 1.72 RRs will not work with the "E" cam. They reach too far fwd on the valve stem and started to mushroom a stem. I noticed it just as it was beginning to happen. Only a little bit of the stem started to wear, but I could see how it was going to end up.

So, we R&R'd the RRs for a set of Scorpion 1.6RRs (endurance series). They are lower profile than their race series, 28oz lighter, and most important -the right ratio. However, they still will not fit under the stock valve covers. I need to find those trick flow valve covers you talked about. Does Trick Flow sell them, or are they discontinued items only to found on eBay? We need to resolve this car today. Thanks in advance.

Joseph

Kurt