351W/408 stroker swap into an 87 GT. Everyone welcome, teach me!

[5.0 HOtrain]

. I've not considered the TFS heads, because everyone says AFRs are better

Now what if the TFS heads were poontang would you not consider it just because everyone said whackin off was better , sorry couldnt resist.
mike.

My #'s speak for themselves, pump gas, box stock parts, 29* total timing. Do what you like, it's you're $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[408stroker5.0]

I would go with a Deep Sump Oil Pan no question's asked. Especially if your using a HV Oil Pump. Now you say your worried about ground clearence with a 7QT. Aftermarket Pan..... Don't worry about it. I run a 7QT Milodon Oil Pan in my 408 Stang and the rear sump is pretty much flush with the front crossmember. In fact the BBK header's I'm using sit Way lower then the oil pan does which pretty much mean's the header's are going to take the beating before the oil pan ever does. As for heads.... I'd say AFR is the way to go, Flow number's show it, but the Trick Flow's almost may seem like the better bang for the buck (????) as they are definetly an awesome head as well and aren't too far behind the 205's. It's really your call, either head will make great power.... I coudn't stop drooling over my 205's when I got them... really nicely designed/built head.

 

[astronut1885]

Yeah, the TFS heads are nice, but I want to get the best performance I can. I wish I could get a comparison for my app, because if it's like 10hp, then I'd gladly save the 500 and buy the TFS heads. By the way, I'd probably run heavily ported/polished 185s, not 205s, so I could get a higher compression. I don't know if I need a HV oil pump. I replaced my stock one on my 302 with another stocker, and I get good pressure. Is a HV pump something that should be used on a 393 stroker? Also, can a windage tray and mains girdle be used together?

 

[astronut1885]

Guys, here's a biggie- I've located sources for most of what I need, except one key thing- the stroker kit. Where can I get a QUALITY, heavy duty stroker kit? I want to have a 351W block bored .30 over, and honed and all that crap, so that a kit will go right in. I know eagle makes good stuff, as does scat, but I'm nowhere near knowledgable enough to make a good decision. Give me some links, advice, etc.

I just checked the link given above for ADperformance. The Scat9000 kit they list seems to be exactly what I want, all forged, and the price is alot less than I expected. I assume with these kits that you have to bore the block, right?

 

[5.0 HOtrain]

FWIW, from what i've seen on the here and on the corral, my heads match most, better some (AFR combo'd strokers) Just what i've seen.
mike.

Peak dyno #'s arent everything though.

 

[408stroker5.0]

Company's like D.S.S. & FRPP make Windage Tray/Girdle setup's out there and they are a really nice set up.... the only problem is they are BIG buck's. I made my own girdle/windage Tray combo. I started off with a Probe Main Girdle, and then ordered up a Universal (Trim/Bend To fit) Uni-Directional Windage Tray Screen from Moroso. I had to order longer ARP Stud's as well. (I forget the length but I believe they were actually BBD Head Studs) Basically I formed and cut the screen to contour to the girdle and clear all the rod's and crank and oil pan and then bolted it down to the main stud's. The girdle went on first and torqued down, and then the tray on top of that using it's own nut's and washer's, so not to affect the main cap torque reading's. It turned out excellent although took over 1/2 a day to build the damn thing.
As for an HV Oil Pump... you'll get mixed opinion's about them were ever you go. The down side to the HV Pump's is they do take a bit more HP to turn and they do bring the oil temp up. Not only that if you don't have a higher then 5QT capacity oil pan the pump can suck all of the oil out of the pan before it's returned if at higher RPM's for an extended amount of time. On a Stroker like your's you could go either way.... I used an HV because they do seem to make a bit more oil pressure then a stock volume pump does (Not a Whole Lot but enough to make a difference) and they do help the engine in oil supply at higher RPM's.

 

[astronut1885]

Yeah, I'm going to do some homework on that. The TFS R heads are cheaper than the AFRs, so I dunno, but that's something to decide on later. BTW- I noticed your #s are flywheel, so you have any RWHP numbers yet?
On the oil pump- I rarely see RPMs above 4k on the street, and I doubt I'd push more than 5600 beating on it. I want to use the FRPP pan, and that's only 5qt, so I guess the HV pump isn't for me.
On the girdle/windage tray- I'm not so good on the fabrication, and I wouldn't want to screw something up down there near the rotating assembly. Which offers a more distinct advantage, the windage tray or the girdle? Obviously the girdle strengthens the bottom end and ties together the cap area, and the windage tray can stop oil slosh into the rotating assembly which is good and can cut parasitic HP loss. If it were me, I'd opt for the girlde and find my extra few HP elsewhere. What do you guys think?

 

[408stroker5.0]

I've alway's liked Scat Product's... never had a problem with them. Just so you are aware astronut1885 the Scat 9000 is not a Steel Crank, it's actually a cast crank, thus the excellent price. Don't worry about it though, the 9000's are rated up to 700HP and are an excellent crank by all mean's. I'm currently using the 9000 in my 408 combined with Scat H-Beam's and SRP Forged Piston's. Now if your thinking of maybe throwing some juice at her or some sort of power adder in the future then you will want to go with a Forged Steel Crank by all means. The Scat 9000 would most likely hold up but it would be on the edge.

If you don't want to do the fabricating deal, then by all mean's go with a girdle. It's a must have on any higher HP Stroker. It's not that the fabricating the tray is difficult, it's just time consuming. It would be pretty hard to screw something up. Basically all the forming, cutting etc. etc. is done before the block is even sent to the machine shop to avoid debris and all kind's of other crap falling into the finished rotating assy.
Oh Yeah.... trust me.... even if you mostly will be driving this thing on the street, you will see be seeing upward's of 6000-6500RPM's know matter what you do.

 

[astronut1885]

I'm not big on power adders at all. This car is intended to be a street machine with occasional strip use. I'd be more than happy to hit 500 RWHP, and I think my planned combo can get me there. Nitrous is definitely out, I am scared of the stuff, and turbos are too much work. At best I'd get a small blower if the motor wasn't enough, which I highly doubt.

BTW- What's the difference between forged and cast?

Another question- When people stroke a 306 out, they say that the 347 stroker has less longevity because of the steep rod angles during the stroke. They say the 331 is a much more stable motor all around. When stroking the 351, is there any difference between the 393 or the 408 as far as durability? If it isn't an issue, then perhaps I could go with the 408 and get a few more ponies there.

 

[408stroker5.0]

From what I know there is no durability issues between the 393 or 408. Alot of the durability issues has to do with the piston design as on most stroker's the side skirt length is shorter because of the longer rod, which can cause the piston to kind of rock in the cylinder wall's. 351W stroker's aren't really known for having a huge problem with that of course depending on what piston you use. One way to kind of help prevent piston rock is to have the piston's coated... I had this done on my 408 as well mainly because the coating act's as an anti friction as well. Another thing to watch for is with what piston you use. For a street engine you want the oil ring to be above the piston pin hole, not through it as this causes oil loss so keep that in mind as well. All Piston's manufacture's have there own design so insure you do your homework as too which piston is best for your application.

My saying is if your going to do a 393 you mine as well do a 408... or hell maybe even a 418.

 

[BlackFox5.0]

BTW- What's the difference between forged and cast?

Cast is molten metal poured into a mold, when it's solid again it's machined.

Forged it the same thing, but while it's curing, it is pressurized. Speaking on the molecular level, it packs all the molecules together, nice and tightly. Thus making it's stronger under high stress conditions. I've seen magnified pictures of cast and forged, and the differences are amazing.

 

[astronut1885]

Now a 418, is that due to a bigger bore, or a bigger stroke? Also, when doing a stroker motor, does the block need to be bored .30 over like a 302 does?

 

[408stroker5.0]

All type's of engine's need to be bored depending on what kind of shape the cylinder wall's are when it come's time for a rebuild or build up. Basically the amount needed to machine is determined till the cylinder wall's are clean of scratches, groove's, rust, etc. etc. etc. and you have a nice smooth finish. Some engine's may not even require machining and can stick with a std. piston .30 oversize is definetly the most common bore diameter used today and is usually the easiest piston diameter to find stock on through most retailers. Say you were to buy a Scat 408 Stroker Kit.... 408 will be the c.i.d. if you use a 4.030 diameter piston. If you go with .20 then the c.i.d will go down a bit. If you go with .40 then the c.i.d will go up a bit.

418 uses a longer stroke then a 408. The increased stroke does not come from a different bore diameter... they both use 4.030.

 

[astronut1885]

Ah, so the longer stroke then. That's what makes that ugly rod angle they talk about with 347s. I dunno, either 393 or 408. I'd go .30 overbore to meet the standard and make my life easy, and thereby leave some wall left if I ever needed to rebore in the far future. I know the 408 kit can be had forged for a few hundred more, and I'd prefer the beefier crank myself. More homework...

 

[BlackFox5.0]

You really only want to bore the clyinders, if you have to. Overboring, like 408Stroker said, fixes ridges at the top of the clyinder from the rings, and other imperfections. If a standard size pistons fits, then why do you have to overbore? As long as there is not excessive play with the piston and there is no ridge at the top, then you could get away with just honing. Getting a high mileage block from a junkyard however would most likely need to be bored, since there should be excessive wear, and a ridge at the top.

 

[9 Deuce GT]

To answer your question about a HV oil pump, they will not fit in the FRPP swap pan without modification to the pan. I would just go with a standard pump because of stories I have read about the pan being sucked near dry. Also, what type of rockers do you have: pedestal or shaft mount? That may play into your head choice. I think most TFS heads only come in shaft mount style. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[9 Deuce GT]

I think I answered my own question about your rockers after I visited your site, unless you had the P heads converted.

 

[408stroker5.0]

You are incorrect..... they come preped for stud mount, like most other aftermarket cyl. heads.

 

[9 Deuce GT]

Hey 408, maybe I had a long night at work, but isn't shaft and stud mount the same thing, or do I need sleep? Probably need to get sleep!

 

[408stroker5.0]

No.... shaft & stud mount are totally different. Basically the name explain's it all.... Shaft mount uses a shaft that goes across the head to mount the rocker's were as stud uses a stud to mount the rocker's. Most old Mopar's (340, 440 etc.) came factory with shaft mount rocker set up's. Factory Ford head's use a pedestal mount set up for the rocker's and machining has to be done to the head's in order for stud's to be used.