357w: would you do it again??

[ras50gt]

While filling up at the gas station, a 85 gt pulled in. Ugly imo, but sounded mean and healthy. Had a chance to talk to the owner for a few minutes and he opened his hood. 357w, afr heads and a on3 turbo. He said he loves everything about this combo for a street car although the turbo took some effort and patience to fit. He use to own a 89 with a 408w that became mostly a track car.

I think the 357w with a turbo or supercharger could be a good fit. He did suggest I consider the dart 347 route only cause adding a power adder will be easier fitment wise.

 

[JD1964]

What about the substantially heavier rotating mass of the 351 compared to the 302? On a car with a power adder I suspect the lighter mass would be a benefit. On NA, you want as many cubes as possible and a heavier mass might help the inertia delivery when shifting into higher gears on full throttle. What specifically are the pros and cons of lighter and heavier rotating masses?

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

What about the substantially heavier rotating mass of the 351 compared to the 302? On a car with a power adder I suspect the lighter mass would be a benefit. On NA, you want as many cubes as possible and a heavier mass might help the inertia delivery when shifting into higher gears on full throttle. What specifically are the pros and cons of lighter and heavier rotating masses?

One of the heaviest engines ever built helped Ford win Lemans over one of the lightest ( Ferrari) for 5 years straight.

 

[ras50gt]

I have spent way too many nights racking my brain on which engine to build... but here are my thoughts. Based off this, tell me what you think is best for me:
- The majority of people here say 351w block. 8 or 9 out of 10 say 408w. However, reading through forums these cars are mostly track cars, 10-11 second cars, using slicks, pushing well over 500-600 hp or more. Seems like a 408 with decent heads, intake, cam will get into high numbers quickly.
- I don't want a track car, I don't care about being the fastest on the street. I will be working on this car but I don't want to have to fix broken parts constantly because of too much power. I just want a fun, strong, nice sounding, run with some of the fast cars kind vehicle.
- I keep returning to the idea of a stock block 331 but with good heads (TF 190 or similar), intake, cam, etc the stock block is the weak point and a future power adder may be out of the question.
- Enter, the dart shp block. Looking at about $2k more from most builders, is it worth it? Would probably skip the 331 and go 347 or 363. Like the idea of fitment being more straight forward compared to the 351w. Can run a stock hood. Could easily add a power adder later on (I already have a paxton 1220sl). May sell the paxton to put toward the block.
- When I posted this, my goal was 450-500 hp. After searching/reading through the forums, the 400 hp range might be the ticket. Seems like this power level has a balance of fun/streetable/reliable and although I realize power equals less gas milage some people have gotten decent mph too.

So, final thoughts:
- Should I remove the stock block 331 out of the running? I feel like investing in good heads, intake, etc just for the block to split would suck.
- 357w or 393w with trick flow 11r heads?
- Dart Block 331-363. Will it be overkill to go this direction?

 

[2000xp8]

I personally never understood a 331 at all.
You "could", do a NA 347 in a stock block and theoretically (if you don't blow it up, which you shouldn't) use the rotating assembly in a future dart build.
Use good heads, custom cam, good intake, should net you 400rwhp.
My stance on the 351 surely hasn't changed.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

This is just pure craziness.

If your goal as you have stated is to have reliable, fun, fast power, then there is no reason you should even bother with a dart block. A 347 using a stock block will net 400 hp N/A without even trying.
it’ll be reliable, it’ll be fun, and it’ll be fast. The reliability thing goes out the window IF you decide to add power beyond that.
( But you have said that is not your intention)
Conversely, a 351 with little more than a .030 overbore will provide the same HP at that bore, but with more torque due to the longer stroke. No stroker kit required, and a foundation that will exceed your power goals safely should you wake up one day and decide to plop down a bunch of money on some forced induction system later.

Why are you even talking about a Dart block? A 351 doesn’t automatically have to become a 408......but it can.

 

[ras50gt]

Well if I want to do it right the first time, why not talk about a dart block? The consensus is if I did a 347 short block with decent heads, cam and intake you can easily hit 400 hp. So if I do decide to grow from there such as boost, the block is the limiting factor. I understand a dart block might be overkill for my current goals.

Anyways, I see the advantage of going 351 based. I'm wondering what kind of power I can expect from a 408w with TFS 11R 190 heads, mild cam, most likely TFS intake?

Most of you say go 408 but can a 408 be built "mild". Once again, I don't want 500+ hp right now.

 

[nickyb]

Well if I want to do it right the first time, why not talk about a dart block? The consensus is if I did a 347 short block with decent heads, cam and intake you can easily hit 400 hp. So if I do decide to grow from there such as boost, the block is the limiting factor. I understand a dart block might be overkill for my current goals.

Anyways, I see the advantage of going 351 based. I'm wondering what kind of power I can expect from a 408w with TFS 11R 190 heads, mild cam, most likely TFS intake?

Most of you say go 408 but can a 408 be built "mild". Once again, I don't want 500+ hp right now.

Yes,yes.You Can build a one h.p. Per c.i. Easily so 408c.i.=408h.p. You won't need killer heads or super expensive parts to do so. I suggest you research somebuilds,look up some 351 swap info,price parts and see if you can realistically do that build.

 

[Monkeybutt2000]

I vote a stock block 331 or 347. Get the rotating assembly balanced. It's mostly vibes and harmonics that split these blocks.Look up Chris Watsons stock bottom end turbo car. My 331 ran hard,even untuned and small injectors. You keep the rpms at a reasonable level a stock block will live a long time.

 

[a91what]

I tune alot of SBF stuff, at least one a week without ever seeing the car. If you want to spin high rpm, do what we do to our race motors.. [small guys here so no big money stuff] spend the money and do an internally balanced rotating assembly. An IB build will be sling less wieght around at 7500 rpm than a 28oz at 5500.
Thats the secret, we throw 2 stages of nitrous at our stock block 331 and shift at 7500. [Grudge car so no real # posted] but we could run in the 5 index 1/8th mile.
I dont care what or how you build it, a bad tune will wipe anything out.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

Well if I want to do it right the first time, why not talk about a dart block? The consensus is if I did a 347 short block with decent heads, cam and intake you can easily hit 400 hp. So if I do decide to grow from there such as boost, the block is the limiting factor. I understand a dart block might be overkill for my current goals.

Anyways, I see the advantage of going 351 based. I'm wondering what kind of power I can expect from a 408w with TFS 11R 190 heads, mild cam, most likely TFS intake?

Most of you say go 408 but can a 408 be built "mild". Once again, I don't want 500+ hp right now.

You make absolutely zero sense.

Here,....I’ll write slowly.

You don’t have to make some heathen 351 based build Just because it’s a 351. A .030 over 351 with the right heads, intake, and cam will trip all over itself to not make your modest HP goals. Why the 408 number keeps entering the conversation every time you consider the bigger engine baffles me.
And for the record,..the “majority” have recommended a 393.

if you want simple horsepower, there is no substitute for cubic inches ( I should coin that phrase,...it has a certain ring to it. )
Furthermore, having big power is all relative...There’s a long pedal on the floor that controls that. You don’t have to smash it to the floor, just because it‘ll go there.

Consider the big picture. Out one side of your mouth, you are saying that you “ Don’t want more than 400 hp”. while out the other, you’re talking about Dart blocks and stokers. The one cancels out the reason for the other.

IF ( I capitalized that to intimate that you may decide to change your mind)
If, you decide that you wanna step it up, then you also have to decide how big of a shoe you wanna try on.. Cuz the shoes gotta fit If you’re gonna wear it.
If you have a 400 hp combo, and for whatever reason, you decide thats not enough, a 351 based block will safely take you to the 700 hp range. If you choose a stock block 5.0 to make your 400, this is where the need for the Dart block enters the fray.

Again,....let’s review.

COMPLETE 351 JY engines are what???.....300-500?
BARE Dart blocks are...2 GRAND?
How hard is this?
Lets all go outside now, and do something harder than choosing an engine to make 400 hp, with potential for almost twice that for a fraction of what a stroked Dart block combo will cost....like, fall off a log.

 

[revhead347]

You make absolutely zero sense.

Consider the big picture. Out one side of your mouth, you are saying that you “ Don’t want more than 400 hp”. while out the other, you’re talking about Dart blocks and stokers. The one cancels out the reason for the other.

He's saying he wants a good running N/A engine (not some lopy vibration machine that doesn't make power until 6000rpms) with room for a power adder if he chooses to do so later on.

Here's the other part, 351 is bigger, makes adding a power adder a lot more difficult. The main advantage to a 351W block is that it has enough meat in the bottom to be drilled for 4 bolt mains, which you guessed it, is expensive. It's still stronger than the 302 if you leave it 2 bolt main, but not a whole lot. Still almost always cheaper to get the 4 bolt 302 block in there.

Kurt

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

He's saying he wants a good running N/A engine (not some lopy vibration machine that doesn't make power until 6000rpms) with room for a power adder if he chooses to do so later on.

Here's the other part, 351 is bigger, makes adding a power adder a lot more difficult. The main advantage to a 351W block is that it has enough meat in the bottom to be drilled for 4 bolt mains, which you guessed it, is expensive. It's still stronger than the 302 if you leave it 2 bolt main, but not a whole lot. Still almost always cheaper to get the 4 bolt 302 block in there.

Kurt

I disagree with that. A 351 doesnt need 4 bolt mains at the power level this guy is shooting for. If he is in fact saying that " He wants a good running N/A engine" , then he'd get that easily with the stock block stroked to 347. He'd get that easily leaving the 351 at .030 with a good induction system, but with the added room to push that engine easily 100-150 hp past 5.0 fail point.
A fox engine bay easily accommodates a 351, it's not like trying to jam a 460, or a 4v mod motor in there, but there are plenty of those swaps with power adders floating out there. Compared to that..the 351 looks tiny.

 

[revhead347]

I disagree with that. A 351 doesnt need 4 bolt mains at the power level this guy is shooting for. If he is in fact saying that " He wants a good running N/A engine" , then he'd get that easily with the stock block stroked to 347. He'd get that easily leaving the 351 at .030 with a good induction system, but with the added room to push that engine easily 100-150 hp past 5.0 fail point.
A fox engine bay easily accommodates a 351, it's not like trying to jam a 460, or a 4v mod motor in there, but there are plenty of those swaps with power adders floating out there. Compared to that..the 351 looks tiny.

I would agree with your assessment. But in my mind from a cost based perspective, the 302 block makes more sense. Over and over again, I find that the 4 bolt main 302 block gets in the car and running cheaper than the stock block 351w. Not to mention faster. I've seen so many 351w swaps circle the drain for years, because there are so many aggravations. Especially when it's someone's first swap. The 302 block swap is a two weekend affair for a first time swap. I get that the 351w fits in the stock engine bay fine, until you put a power adder on it. Keep in mind all these bolt on power adders are for 302s, not 351s. So that's another hassle to get that to work. When I have to work on my friend's turbo 351, it's always a hassle. All those pipes running right around the spark plugs, and the turbo is just crammed in there.

And yeah, stock 351w blocks are generally considered good for 750hp at 6500 rpms, but manufacturing on these engines is not consistent. Sometimes you put one together, and the block cracks at 400hp N/A. Not to mention the whole roller lifter hassle; I mean you are going to want a roller cam. You have to find a specific year range to get a bolt in lifter kit to work. If it's not that year block, you end up blowing huge money on link bar lifters that have no advantage over the stock 302 lifter setup. You spend the money on a 4 bolt 302 block once, built right, and it's going to be good for 1000hp. It's a lot of piece of mind.

I also noticed that the profile picture shows the car with a stock hood on it. I know it's possible to get a 351w to fit under a stock hood, but it's not ideal, and it's a rare accomplishment. So right off the bat, you are looking at a few hundred for a hood, and then paint. Which unless you know someone that can paint, it's a few hundred as soon as someone has to put the paint in the sprayer. Of course it never matches, and you pay extra for blend work. That alone almost cancels out the up front cost for a 4 bolt Dart block.

Kurt

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

I would agree with your assessment. But in my mind from a cost based perspective, the 302 block makes more sense. Over and over again, I find that the 4 bolt main 302 block gets in the car and running cheaper than the stock block 351w. Not to mention faster. I've seen so many 351w swaps circle the drain for years, because there are so many aggravations. Especially when it's someone's first swap. The 302 block swap is a two weekend affair for a first time swap. I get that the 351w fits in the stock engine bay fine, until you put a power adder on it. Keep in mind all these bolt on power adders are for 302s, not 351s. So that's another hassle to get that to work. When I have to work on my friend's turbo 351, it's always a hassle. All those pipes running right around the spark plugs, and the turbo is just crammed in there.

And yeah, stock 351w blocks are generally considered good for 750hp at 6500 rpms, but manufacturing on these engines is not consistent. Sometimes you put one together, and the block cracks at 400hp N/A. Not to mention the whole roller lifter hassle; I mean you are going to want a roller cam. You have to find a specific year range to get a bolt in lifter kit to work. If it's not that year block, you end up blowing huge money on link bar lifters that have no advantage over the stock 302 lifter setup. You spend the money on a 4 bolt 302 block once, built right, and it's going to be good for 1000hp. It's a lot of piece of mind.

I also noticed that the profile picture shows the car with a stock hood on it. I know it's possible to get a 351w to fit under a stock hood, but it's not ideal, and it's a rare accomplishment. So right off the bat, you are looking at a few hundred for a hood, and then paint. Which unless you know someone that can paint, it's a few hundred as soon as someone has to put the paint in the sprayer. Of course it never matches, and you pay extra for blend work. That alone almost cancels out the up front cost for a 4 bolt Dart block.

Kurt

Kurt, Kurt, Kurt,......

This is where we need to do a Stangnet challenge.

Id bet you.....

*If I had the funding to build an engine I could give a rats red bunion hole to own....

That I could build a 500hp 351 w, survivable as a DD so much cheaper than a Dart based 5.0 it wouldn’t even be close.

 

[a91what]

I dont understand all this expensive talk...
I will say it again, the cost of rotating assembly and heads are void.. have to buy those either way.
Ok so the link lifters cost $360... and an intake and swap headers. I shopped around and got all of it for 1k.

I have tuned countless junkyard 351 turbo engines. That stop making power when we max out the 78mm turbo at 25psi.

2 bolt main. All day. If your buying a rotating assembly buy it IB (internally balanced) cost is 200 over 28oz. Now the harmonic issue of the sbf is a non issue.

Enjoy

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

I dont understand all this expensive talk...
I will say it again, the cost of rotating assembly and heads are void.. have to buy those either way.
Ok so the link lifters cost $360... and an intake and swap headers. I shopped around and got all of it for 1k.

I have tuned countless junkyard 351 turbo engines. That stop making power when we max out the 78mm turbo at 25psi.

2 bolt main. All day. If your buying a rotating assembly buy it IB (internally balanced) cost is 200 over 28oz. Now the harmonic issue of the sbf is a non issue.

Enjoy

did my tune show up ok Obi?

 

[a91what]

did my tune show up ok Obi?

Yes it did, guy I was working with lost the clutch so I will take a look at it soon

 

[revhead347]

Kurt, Kurt, Kurt,......

This is where we need to do a Stangnet challenge.

Id bet you.....

*If I had the funding to build an engine I could give a rats red bunion hole to own....

That I could build a 500hp 351 w, survivable as a DD so much cheaper than a Dart based 5.0 it wouldn’t even be close.

Maybe you could. First timer, not likely. I have watched so many people go down the 351w rabbit hole in the last 26 years, I've lost count. On your first attempt, you are better off calling Woody at Ford Strokers and having him tell you what you need and send it to you. The price is within nickels and dimes either way IF you can get the 351 under the stock hood. If not, the 351w is going to cost a good chunk more.

Kurt

 

[ras50gt]

Maybe you could. First timer, not likely. I have watched so many people go down the 351w rabbit hole in the last 26 years, I've lost count. On your first attempt, you are better off calling Woody at Ford Strokers and having him tell you what you need and send it to you. The price is within nickels and dimes either way IF you can get the 351 under the stock hood. If not, the 351w is going to cost a good chunk more.

Kurt

Revhead, appreciate your insight and for not sounding like a douche. Some people don't realize that forums are a useful way for others to learn who may not have the experience or knowledge.