408W ... carb or injected ... opinions

[ttribe]

I am building a 93 mustang, plan is to have it capable of dipping into the 9s. I am completely stuck between Fuel Injection or Carb. My pocket book tells me to go carb, but I have never owned a carberated vehicle. I have owned various fuel injected vehicles supercharged, nitrous, turbo, etc. So i do appreciated a well tuned EFI system. A good EFI system is expensive, and requires professional tuning, etc. I have an good friend, long time mod racer wanting me to go Carb for simplicity and the fact that he can easily tune it because he is familiar.

I want opinions from whoever has experience in this.

this vehicle is not a daily driver nor is it street legal, however i will street drive it now and then when i need an adrenaline fix or going to a car show, etc.

I am mostly interested in the drivability of a dialed-in carberated car compared to a injected car, etc.

 

[goodfastncheap]

I have both kinds of cars, and I am sure there will be other opinions about this, but for drivability in a 9-second(!) car, EFI probably wins hands down, especially if you invest in your tune. But for pure performance/cost, you can't beat a well-tuned, properly sized carb. I'd go with the carb if your foot will be on the floor most of the time.

 

[86bluecobra]

If its a money issue then carb'd wins everytime.

 

[BlooDReigN]

I'll tell you from experience...doing EFI on a 351 stroker is kind of a pita...But I think it's worth it. It all depends what you want out of the car...I personally think carbs are good if:
A)it's an all out race car
B)you are old and stubborn in changing your ways
C)you are cheap and/or lazy

IMO, EFI is much easier to deal with once you get the car set up how you want it, and is just much more flexible and precise. Sure...it makes the swap a little harder, but it's one more thing that helps set you stand apart from the rest too, because there really isn't ALOT of guys with fuel injected 408's...most guys seem to go carb.

 

[bluevenom867]

Ill tell you this,its hard to find a NA motor that make more power with EFI than a carb.

A good carb and single plane intake set-up with a 200hp plate kit would send that into the 9's no problems. Carb would probably be either a 850 or 950 mechanical secondary ( I would lean toward the bigger one if you can get one with annular boosters).

 

[Modular2v]

If you are looking for PURE Performance for a decent price carb wins hands down. Effeciency goes to the efi! Im going to have my car running 10s for less than 7k dollars(including price of the car) with my carb setup.

 

[DemonGT]

id say if the EFI is still in the car then use it, i went EFI with mine and im glad i did

 

[gunmetal5.0]

Carbed.

 

[gunmetal5.0]

Carbed.

+1

 

[795.0pacecar]

Holley Carb: $300
Victor Jr, Carb intake: $270
Holley blue Fuel pump: $130
Fuel line kit: $100
Throttle cable: $70
MSD Distributor: $290
Decent MSD ignition: $230
2 hours of dyno time for tuning about: $200

Total: 1590


EFI stuff
Victor intake: $590
Tb: $130
Fuel pump: $110
Injectors: $250
Mass air meter: 200
Dyno tune $400

Total: 1680

You're only talkin about a $100 difference here and consider these are all brand new parts. I'm sure theres stuff I missed on both sides here, but to me, its worth a couple hundred extra to have a car that drives well on the street.

 

[Dean85GT]

For a race car though the option of "on the fly" tuning a carb offers is hard to beat, especially since all it costs is a couple bucks in jets and whatnot.

 

[gunmetal5.0]

Holley Carb: $300
Victor Jr, Carb intake: $270
Holley blue Fuel pump: $130
Fuel line kit: $100
Throttle cable: $70
MSD Distributor: $290
Decent MSD ignition: $230
2 hours of dyno time for tuning about: $200

Total: 1590


EFI stuff
Victor intake: $590
Tb: $130
Fuel pump: $110
Injectors: $250
Mass air meter: 200
Dyno tune $400

Total: 1680

You're only talkin about a $100 difference here and consider these are all brand new parts. I'm sure theres stuff I missed on both sides here, but to me, its worth a couple hundred extra to have a car that drives well on the street.

I recognize your valid point pace but I do have to say a carbed car can be built a lot cheaper than that, A LOT. Very high numbers and I know because i've done it, and I didn't cut any corners or do a jimmy rig job.

 

[86bluecobra]

Holley Carb: $300
Victor Jr, Carb intake: $270
Holley blue Fuel pump: $130
Fuel line kit: $100
Throttle cable: $70
MSD Distributor: $290
Decent MSD ignition: $230
2 hours of dyno time for tuning about: $200

Total: 1590


EFI stuff
Victor intake: $590
Tb: $130
Fuel pump: $110
Injectors: $250
Mass air meter: 200
Dyno tune $400

Total: 1680

You're only talkin about a $100 difference here and consider these are all brand new parts. I'm sure theres stuff I missed on both sides here, but to me, its worth a couple hundred extra to have a car that drives well on the street.

Kinda flawed logic here because if you are serious about building a 408 stroker your efi set up is also going to included new fuel pressure regulator, a MSD ignition, a msd dizzy, a tweecer, etc etc etc. Its not a 100 dollar difference. It is a little closer to 1000+ difference.

 

[795.0pacecar]

Why would it include that? You dont need that stuff, the stock ford ignition will work fine, I did forget the distributor, however you could get a reman efi 351 distributor and put a steel gear on it. You also dont need a tweecer but you do need a tune and once you have a good tune you wont need to tune "on the fly" because the EFI will still adapt to changes, the stock fuel lines will support the power of the N/A 408. An adjustable fuel pressure regulator is useless, the computer will cancel out and changes in fuel pressure by changing the duty cycle on the injectors.

My numbers are high on both sides because Im not taking into account used parts because that is a variable that will just add to the argument, however just like with carb stuff, you can get EFI stull used and cheap.

 

[86bluecobra]

Personally I would not use stock fuel lines on a 408 stroker. You are going to be able to make more power (well atleast in carb'd form) then the factory lines will be able to deliver. How many 408 build ups do you read with 500 + hp N/A. True maybe not the friendliest street cam but still with a street cam in them 450+ is going to be easy if you are buying the right heads. And I do think you are going to have to have those other parts if you are gong to want to come close power wise to a carb'd set-up with an efi 408.

 

[795.0pacecar]

Most street carbed 408s I have seen put down 410-430rwhp. The stock fuel lines have been proven to support up to 500hp. The stock ignition will work fine, there is very little if any hp to be had by using an aftermarket ignition on an EFI car.

Im not saying a carb will cost more or wont make more power than a similar EFI combo. I am saying the power difference wont be huge assuming both are properly set up and tuned, and the EFI car will have better street manners.

 

[bluevenom867]

86bluecobra is right on with his thinking,I would not use stock fuel lines to feed a N/A 408 stroker,unless it wasnt making good power

You need 3/8" (-06AN) for fuel injection and 1/2" (-08AN) for carb,minimum size for 500hp or more (IMO,you might be able to get by with less by using a larger pump,but this would seem to put more strain on the pump to overcoem the restriction).

Also,the stock Ford ignition WILL NOT KEEP UP with much anything over 10.0:1 compression,you'll get miss firing on the top end do to lack of suffecint spark energy.If you ever put some spray to it,that could be disasterious.

Also,a word on cams.....streetable is whatever you want it to be. Our .734/.726 284/296 @ .05 111* LSA solid roller is streetable to me,others might not even think thats possable to run in a small block.The best "streetable" cam I had was just over .600 lift with about 26x/27x @ .05 on a 112* LSA in a 408 with ported TFS TrackHeats and a matching Victor Jr. intake with a 950cfm Race Demon RS (annular booster).Exhaust was nothing special,BBk 1 3/4 headers with a 3" exhaust.It made good power,ran into the 6.80's on motor befor the vacuum pump,with no tuning of any kind.Im sure with some tuning and the vacuum pump we added later,it would have gone into the .60's,maybe into the .50's (thats deep 10's on motor in the 1/4 mile).That motor was set-up to win True Street down here on a big hit from a fogger,I would planing on high 8's,but we changed it to race Drag Radial at our local track just about a week after we got it runing just right,lol.

edit: The cam that was in the 408 was a hydrualic roller cam with Crane lifters,just to not confuse anyone.

 

[vristang]

this vehicle is not a daily driver nor is it street legal, however i will street drive it now and then when i need an adrenaline fix or going to a car show, etc.

I am mostly interested in the drivability of a dialed-in carberated car compared to a injected car, etc.

You will not drive the car on the street, yet you are most concerned with drivability?

If drivability really is your top concern, then EFI is the answer.
The car will start/run the same regardless of season, temperature, humitidy, elevation, etc.

Is this really a concern for a track car?

You need to clarify your goals, as this ambiguity has lead to everyone who has posted above to interpret your goals differently...


My 'opinion' is that the percieved power difference between carb and efi has more to do with the intake runner design than whether or not injectors are used...


My thoughts,
jason

 

[bluevenom867]

You will not drive the car on the street, yet you are most concerned with drivability?

If drivability really is your top concern, then EFI is the answer.
The car will start/run the same regardless of season, temperature, humitidy, elevation, etc.

Is this really a concern for a track car?

You need to clarify your goals, as this ambiguity has lead to everyone who has posted above to interpret your goals differently...


My 'opinion' is that the percieved power difference between carb and efi has more to do with the intake runner design than whether or not injectors are used...


My thoughts,
jason

The carb better atomises the fuel,and the fuel coming out of the carbs boosters/venturi is cooler than that of EFI do to the pressure.But,EFI counters this slightly with the fact that sense the injectors are placed closer to the heead runners,that more of the intake spacer is reserved for airflow.

Personaly,for the track,the carb wins most always,mechanical injection is a differant matter however,out of thous two (mechanical inj. vs. carb)I would go with injection.

 

[2002BLGT]

I have had my lightning lower intake for a while , planning on doing a 408 by this winter , but now I think I am going to build something a little wilder than I had originally planned and go with a trickflow EFI or spyder EFI intake , if anybody is interested in this lightning lower I have to bolt a cobra or GT40 upper on for a milder combo PM me .......I was going to build something for low end torque , but now I think im going all out with AFR225s and probably a Victor EFI so this intake just wont flow what I wanna do