AFR vs. Trickflow cylinder heads

bluevenom867 said:
What the hell, TFS TW is only 5cc big intake runner.Plus there as cast and most come out with a little smaller than 170cc (like 169/168cc).That really isnt much considering the AFR 185cc are 15cc bigger and have the same size valve, they flow more because there ported, but yet the TFS TW was only 10hp behind and with less compression.Highbredcloud, if you wanna talk BS about how your AFR heads are so great, then why didn't MM&FF compare the TFS TW to the AFR 165cc?They had to put it in the same group as the AFR 185cc, and I know for a fact that the AFR heads flow more (not the 165cc), but the TFS TW hav the special bowl desine.You forget to mention bowl work as one of the thing I said to "clean up" and that also mean removing casting flaws in the run and then going over it with 80 grid cartrage roll to smooth out the rough spots.The exhaust would get a gone over with a polishing head until there like glass smooth.And the AFR 165cc/AFR 185cc are only avaliable in 58cc and 64cc.Um, hate to say it but, the TFS TW flows 251cfm at .550 on the intake and was only a few cfm behind on the exhaust.I want to know what TFS test flow with.AFR flow benched there head on a 4.060 bore with a 1 3/4 header.How many of you out there run your motor .060 over?Not that many, so you lose some flow right there.AFR also shows that the AFR 165cc emission legal heads flow less, by about 5cfm on both sides, than non emission AFR 165cc, so there would be a differance in power.So, I still say

AFR 165cc<TFS TW

Calm down...relax...start breathing...I'm not the one talking BS...the facts are right there if you are willing to take your time to actually research the topic...IT has been proven time and time again that AFR's make more power under the curve than the TW's...NOTICE how I said under the curve and not just peak HP...I do agree that the combination has a lot to do with this matter than the head alone...I have no idea why MM&FF comapre the TW's to the AFR's 185's...YOU can call and inquire about that...It's funny how I'm talking out of the box heads...and then you go ahead and keep saying about a clean up job to the TW's...well guess what buddy...to blend the bowls and polish the chambers and even port/smooth the exhaust for to a perfect 1415 Fel-Pro gasket...that right there will abe about $400.00+...in labor by a reputable head porter and not some nobody with a dremel...Like I said before...just polishing will do nothing...The fact that the TW's have a bigger valve on the intake tells me that AFR must have done something right to achieve the near same flow with a smaller valve and a smaller intake cc...Common sense here...Stick to the subject and don't get all confused...There are different heads out there that will flow better than both AFR's and TW's once slightly cleaned up...i.e...the GT-40X's...I'm talking right out of the box...AFR's will give you better results...is it worth the money? Probably put this in the same perspective as porting or slightly cleaning up the TW's heads for $400.00 more...

YOU are full of wasted knowledge about this topic especially AFR's...AFR 165's come in 54cc, 58cc, 60cc, 61cc...not sure about the 64cc...go to the website and check it out for yourself...www.airflowresearch.com While you are there you can also see the flow number with the emmision legal AFR 165's and the non-emission legal ones...prove me right! I have nothing against TW's, they are a good head but I like the fact of a smaller head making as much HP as a bigger one...I will say this again...TW's have more meat on them if you want to port them...and do flow once ported...Still a very good head for the money...I would really like to know where you get your information from...

-Greg :flag:
 
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Grn92LX said:
Both heads are great, both will make similar numbers through out. That whole smaller port increasing velocity crap is all BS. My TW heads make really good low end torque and by looking at the under 3000 power on afr and TW graphs mine has similar or more in some cases. Its ALL in the combination. My combo was NOT designed for maximum low end torque either. At the time my heads were about $400 less. Was this velocity theory worth an extra $400? Can I get a hell NO ;) IMO an afr 165, TW and an edelbrock performer head will all make similar numbers with the right cam/intake. Some people are just brand loyal and thats how they go about recommending parts. Not cool. My advice is pick one out of the 3 I listed and have the combo designed around that and I bet it'll run good.

How exactly is the BS Mike? a smaller head will have a higher velocity...just like with the TB's...just like with the vavles...What sort of experience do you have with AFR's? Do you have any experience with other heads besides the TW's you own? I have had personal experience with ported GT-40's, ported GT-40X, AFR 165's (not installed on the car yet) and TW's...I've seen what all those heads can do...And where exactly do the AFR's go for $400.00 more than the TW's? Last time I picked up a Summit magazine the TW's are listed at $1095 and the AFR 165 at $1325...that's a little over $200...Just because you didn't feel a loss of low end doesn't mean that I won't...I do agree with you that its not just a head...its the rest of the setup as well that influences the overall performance...It's funny that you stated "Some people are just brand loyal and thats how they go about recommending parts. Not cool."...look in the mirror and tell me what you see...

-Greg
 
Rick 91GT said:
The valves are the closest to the piston at 10 degrees ATDC.

Yes the AFR N2O exhaust ports are larger/ported then the out of the box units. N2O creates waste and exhaust ports and headers/exhaust are very important to get the waste out. The larger the ports the more it can expell out into the header. It needs to be as free flowing as possible. The FTI N2O exhaust ports I have on my 225's are very nice.

All of the above heads will make good power, it really depends on what you want to do with the car/combo in the end. They each have there good and bad points...

Mike you ready for that 331/347 yet ;)

That's what I figured...Would you by anychance know how much bigger the actual exhaust port is...? Reason for that is on the standard AFR 165's the exhaust ports are as big as the gasket and actually bigger than the Bassani 1 5/8 header I have...makes me wonder if the N20 heads require a 1 3/4 header...
 
Good Debate, but lets cool things down a bit.

The facts are the facts, they are both very good heads. I mean they must be great because all of you with the AFR's and TFS's are all very happy with them and are all claiming king of the mountian. I think both the AFR guys and the TFS guys need to :cheers: and relize that you both have some good heads and relize that the other side isn't always wrong.

I am going to have to make the choice sooner more than later. If I decide on TFS's I am going to get the TW style pistons. I am leaning towards the AFR's because of what I have scene. Irrigardless of dyno results, the AFR running cars seem to run the best. There could be other reasons for that but from my experience the AFR's seem to have the pull. A buddy of mine has a 93 Hatch, AFR 185's, ported, GT40 intake, OTS cam, stock block, stock crank and rods 306 9.7:1 compression, Vortec SC trim at 11psi, C4 trans with a very mild stall. Makes 500's in hp and 560tq, runs 6.8 at 101mph in the 1/8th, full interior full weight GT, daily driver. Lifts the front wheels off the ground at a 45mph roll. Would have made more HP but ran out of fuel, putting in an aremotive fuel system.
 
Highbredcloud said:
That's what I figured...Would you by anychance know how much bigger the actual exhaust port is...? Reason for that is on the standard AFR 165's the exhaust ports are as big as the gasket and actually bigger than the Bassani 1 5/8 header I have...makes me wonder if the N20 heads require a 1 3/4 header...


They square off the roof and taper the guides. Basically squaring off the runner like the 205 heads.

Info straight from Ed C @ FTI
 
Highbredcloud said:
How exactly is the BS Mike? a smaller head will have a higher velocity...just like with the TB's...just like with the vavles...What sort of experience do you have with AFR's? Do you have any experience with other heads besides the TW's you own? I have had personal experience with ported GT-40's, ported GT-40X, AFR 165's (not installed on the car yet) and TW's...I've seen what all those heads can do...And where exactly do the AFR's go for $400.00 more than the TW's? Last time I picked up a Summit magazine the TW's are listed at $1095 and the AFR 165 at $1325...that's a little over $200...Just because you didn't feel a loss of low end doesn't mean that I won't...I do agree with you that its not just a head...its the rest of the setup as well that influences the overall performance...It's funny that you stated "Some people are just brand loyal and thats how they go about recommending parts. Not cool."...look in the mirror and tell me what you see...

-Greg

:nice:
 
Highbredcloud said:
How exactly is the BS Mike? a smaller head will have a higher velocity...just like with the TB's...just like with the vavles...What sort of experience do you have with AFR's? Do you have any experience with other heads besides the TW's you own? I have had personal experience with ported GT-40's, ported GT-40X, AFR 165's (not installed on the car yet) and TW's...I've seen what all those heads can do...And where exactly do the AFR's go for $400.00 more than the TW's? Last time I picked up a Summit magazine the TW's are listed at $1095 and the AFR 165 at $1325...that's a little over $200...Just because you didn't feel a loss of low end doesn't mean that I won't...I do agree with you that its not just a head...its the rest of the setup as well that influences the overall performance...It's funny that you stated "Some people are just brand loyal and thats how they go about recommending parts. Not cool."...look in the mirror and tell me what you see...

-Greg

Of course I have actual experience with afr 165's. I helped my friend install/tune/race his afr/fti/rpm combo :) All said and tuned with a good a/f he was 1mph faster than my untuned 16:1 a/f car. On the street from a roll, we were neck and neck. From a dig drag radial to drag radial at the track it wasn't even a race. NEVER said anything bad about 165's. IF you read my post I said pick an edelbrock, afr or a TW and basically you'll be very happy. As for the $400 less comment, my brand new TW heads were $935 shipped over 3 years ago when I bought them and if memory serves me correct afr's were in the $1300 range or maybe slightly less. So we'll say $300 cheaper to be more fair :) What your doing is looking to much into the "theory" rather than REAL world experience. For chits n giggles, compare my untuned car to some tuned afr/fti cars dyno sheets to get an idea of low end torque. You'll see im basically equal or better in the sub 3000 department :)

I'm not brand loyal, its like 5spdGT said, i'm happy with my choice and wouldnt go any other way.
 
1991vert said:
well i have enough $$$ to get either heads really. well after this upcoming thursday i will. i will be happy with 300rwhp if it's possible...and a blower later on :D maybe an a-trim or something small.

also what injectors should i run? 24# or 30#?


Stick with the 19#s and an AFPR. I had around 300 at the wheels and the OE injectors were fine.
 
I'll put what I said earlier in another way. If you're building a new (or rebuilt) motor and piston notching is not a problem then I'd go with a set of 185s. If you're just swapping heads or piston notching seems like it will be more trouble than it's worth in your particular case, then I'd go with the TFS. For me, not having to notch my pistons was the deciding factor. The 185's and the Twisted Wedge "perform" very close to one another. Close enough that it wasn't enough of a factor for me to base my final decision on. The cam and rest of the combo will make the final decision on which head is "best". The AFR heads do flow better than the TFS out of the box and seem to provide slightly better performance. Were I building a new motor and could use whatever heads I wanted then I'd go with the AFR 185 if were a choice between the two. I don't consider the 165s a contender in this group.
 
Daggar said:
I'll put what I said earlier in another way. If you're building a new (or rebuilt) motor and piston notching is not a problem then I'd go with a set of 185s. If you're just swapping heads or piston notching seems like it will be more trouble than it's worth in your particular case, then I'd go with the TFS. For me, not having to notch my pistons was the deciding factor. The 185's and the Twisted Wedge "perform" very close to one another. Close enough that it wasn't enough of a factor for me to base my final decision on. The cam and rest of the combo will make the final decision on which head is "best". The AFR heads do flow better than the TFS out of the box and seem to provide slightly better performance. Were I building a new motor and could use whatever heads I wanted then I'd go with the AFR 185 if were a choice between the two. I don't consider the 165s a contender in this group.

I agree with what you say...,however, why don't you consider the AFR 165's to be a contender? The flow nearly the same as TW's...and are 5cc smaller instead of the 185's being 15cc bigger...besides isn't the 185 head the same as the 165...but with a bigger intake vavle?
 
Grn92LX said:
Of course I have actual experience with afr 165's. I helped my friend install/tune/race his afr/fti/rpm combo :) All said and tuned with a good a/f he was 1mph faster than my untuned 16:1 a/f car. On the street from a roll, we were neck and neck. From a dig drag radial to drag radial at the track it wasn't even a race. NEVER said anything bad about 165's. IF you read my post I said pick an edelbrock, afr or a TW and basically you'll be very happy. As for the $400 less comment, my brand new TW heads were $935 shipped over 3 years ago when I bought them and if memory serves me correct afr's were in the $1300 range or maybe slightly less. So we'll say $300 cheaper to be more fair :) What your doing is looking to much into the "theory" rather than REAL world experience. For chits n giggles, compare my untuned car to some tuned afr/fti cars dyno sheets to get an idea of low end torque. You'll see im basically equal or better in the sub 3000 department :)

I'm not brand loyal, its like 5spdGT said, i'm happy with my choice and wouldnt go any other way.

Mike...I base my decisions on real world experience...the theory follows the experience...For instance...to generate higher velocity with a bigger head you will need to spin the moter higher to achieve the same result as with a smaller head...Common solution to this is simply getting a numerically bigger rear end gear...in this case 5cc really doesn't make a difference but you get my point...,however, AFR's having a smaller intake valve and a 5cc smaller overall my infact pick up more power 200RPMs sooner than a TW head...That's why AFR's seem to have a better under the curve results and not just peak HP...This has to accompany with the rest of the combo as well...

As far as you racing your friend on the street...and being neck and neck...Well I race my friend with a Summit TrickFlow Street heat kit against my GT-40X, GT-40 intake setup and we were neck and neck...in the same type of car...so does that mean that GT-40X heads are just as good as the TW's?
 
Yeah - You can't base the power/quality of heads based on a race between two different drivers with other variables included...

And tuning a h/c/i car is way to easy to consider that as anything...setting FP by turning a little stud and setting timing is easy...

A dyno is a good comparison of a car with everything else being the same except the heads...but we don't have that luxury...

No need to "downplay" TW's or AFR's...I'm happy with my decision...
 
Highbredcloud, you the only one still talking about why this head or that is better than this head or that.Yes, it true that the AFR 165cc might have more intake port velocity, but the TFS heads move more volume.And 90notch kinda put that theory of low end power advantage of the AFR's to rest when he said the TFS TW have shorter runners.The air might move slower but it doesn't have to go as far to reach the valve.I'm done now, I could go on but I don't care really, there both great heads.
 
wait a minute,did you say pull the wheels at 45 mph roll,that i have to see on video,i don't think you can do that with 500 hp,you can do it with less from a dead stop but not rolling,bs flag raised.
 
QDRHRSE said:
The shape of the TW combustion chamber is more efficient.

You know, I've heard that from 4 different engine builders. :nice: I was happy with my afr/fti combo. I'm happy with my current tfs heads, but on a completely different combo. From everything I've seen, both heads are comparitable and seem to put down similiar #'s. Comes down to user preference IMHO :nice:
Mike.
 
jocko said:
wait a minute,did you say pull the wheels at 45 mph roll,that i have to see on video,i don't think you can do that with 500 hp,you can do it with less from a dead stop but not rolling,bs flag raised.

Do you mean this one :bs:

I forgot his combo but I know he has drag struts up front with 4 cylinder springs, Welds with skinnies up front, DR's in back. I thin the drag struts are new, I think he put in 70/30's to replace his old ones, his car was real bouncy. I know the left one came up, it looked like the right one too, but belive what you want to belive. Getting the front wheels off the ground is no feat of power. I have test driven car's for "suspension bottoming out" and things of that nature and I have gotten the wheels off the ground about 6" on a Nissan Pathfinder with a 3.3V6 and some blown out front shocks. How? Hit the brakes hard, the bottom started to dive so I hit the gas, the pathfinder downshifted as it bottomed out, front came up and off the ground, my co-workers told me I had about 6" off the ground. Did in in a FWD caddalic, did the same thing but when the front came off the ground all hell broke loose. I would bet you money that right now, I could go out to my truck, unbolt the front shocks and lift the front wheels off the ground by doing the same.
 
weight is weight and i seen lowriders with hydraulics having a hard time getting over a foot and a half of air with them and you were talking hp,i had 90/10 and 50/50,no sway bar,skinnies and slicks with 9 psi and one wheel went up off the hole on a 12 sec stang with 1.60 foot time but you said rolling at 45 mph,im not trying to be a dic* but give me and the rest of us here a break,and yeah ill take you on your bet anytime!!!!
 
jocko said:
weight is weight and i seen lowriders with hydraulics having a hard time getting over a foot and a half of air with them and you were talking hp,i had 90/10 and 50/50,no sway bar,skinnies and slicks with 9 psi and one wheel went up off the hole on a 12 sec stang with 1.60 foot time but you said rolling at 45 mph,im not trying to be a dic* but give me and the rest of us here a break,and yeah ill take you on your bet anytime!!!!

I need to make some money, do you live near GA? You don't seem to know anything about suspensions. The purpose of a shock is to controll the bounce and keep the tire on the road. A strut is just a shock which serves as a control arm as well. Without a strut/shock, or a completly blown out one, there will be nothing to controll the movement, so the spring constantly pushes and acceleration will speed up, in a skyward direction, with nothign to stop it, so it reaches the point where the travel of the suspension runs out, what, the weight of the wheels is going to keep it on the ground. I am not trying to be a dick either but I work in a shop, this is my profession, carreer (sadly) and I know this kind of thing. Of course, anyone knows anythign about physics knows "an object in motion will contiue in motion until it is stopped" so the the only thing that is stopping the travel is the strut, and it isnt' there, what's going to happen?

-although, now that he has new drag struts in his car, he can't do that anymore.
 
ok,thanks for the suspension specialty class,i am a technician for vw and previously for audi and i know what needs to be known about suspension wich is to diagnose for noise,condition or faulty operation but i don't know alingment or specialize on suspension,back to the subject(45 MPH ROLLING WHEELIES)you should get that on tape and i'll stfu,this is not to start a pissing match,is just hard to beleive.