Aftermarket 2v Heads

[Aaron 4.6]

When I talked to TFS we spoke about the problem that will arise w/ a "good" aftermarket design is that the OHC design of the head will hamper better valve placement for better performance because the stock valve placement on the intake side is the main problem w/ the stock design. TFS informed me that they will try to start the first of the year on the design part of the program. AFR said with them moving next year to thier new location is what will hamper them on getting straight to work on thier program. Shall be very interesting for the next 2 years on some of the outcome.

This underlines the fundamental problem of aftermarket head development. Ford makes more revenue in a week than these companies make in a year. If the 2V head had remained unchanged from 1996, I think it possible that an aftermarket offering might now be in the works or on the shelves (or the N/A 2V 4.6 would be dead- another possibility). Of course, when people started screaming about the 96 cars, Ford went right to work. Three years later you have PI heads and another 35 hp. Based on dyno numbers of the 99-04 cars it seems Ford has continued to play with the combination and the cars have gotten better and better.

Now Ford steps up and delivers the 3V head. No aftermarket company can afford to keep up. Why try to design a better and smarter 2V head when Ford is going to beat you to the punch again with the 3V head. I just don't see the profitability in it. Any aftermarket company will have to make a product that works as well or better than the new 3V head AND price it so that its not cheaper to find a wrecked F-150 and harvest the parts off of it!

I just don't see it happening...

 

[kirkyg]

Think about the GT-40 heads (the good ones) for 5.0's. Your talking about HUGE hp gains from that and intake exhaust mods...i mean HUGEEEEEE Its because the aftermarket heads were designed completely different than the stock heads. All we can do with the current heads is port whats left to take advantage of. If ford put more money into the heads it would be a much higher hp engine n/a.

kirkyg

 

[97predator]

i jave to disagree, ford does alright with the heads if you break down hp/L. The 4.6L makes 56 hp/L while the LS1 makes 57 hp/L. the 4.6 is giving up a liter in displacement, or about 70 cubic inches. Theres your torque difference right there. Give the mod motor the same displacement as the LS1 and boom, 319 hp. Its not the heads fault, but the size of the engine. But ford has reasoning, bigger insurance, more gas burned. Bigger engine, higher insurance. The mustang outsold the f body because it was more affordable accross the board, both in price and real world costs. Besides whats the friggin problem. Buy a mustang for 20,000, throw on a Kenne Bell or Procharger. And ou own the road. Still only spent around 25,000, which is still 10,000 less than the cost of the WS6. SO there you go. If you want aftermarket for a dated car, get a 5.0. If you want a better car, get the newer Mustang.

 

[DBMSTNG]

i jave to disagree, ford does alright with the heads if you break down hp/L. The 4.6L makes 56 hp/L while the LS1 makes 57 hp/L. the 4.6 is giving up a liter in displacement, or about 70 cubic inches. Theres your torque difference right there. Give the mod motor the same displacement as the LS1 and boom, 319 hp. Its not the heads fault, but the size of the engine. But ford has reasoning, bigger insurance, more gas burned. Bigger engine, higher insurance. The mustang outsold the f body because it was more affordable accross the board, both in price and real world costs. Besides whats the friggin problem. Buy a mustang for 20,000, throw on a Kenne Bell or Procharger. And ou own the road. Still only spent around 25,000, which is still 10,000 less than the cost of the WS6. SO there you go. If you want aftermarket for a dated car, get a 5.0. If you want a better car, get the newer Mustang.

the LS1 actually makes about 61.5hp per liter. don't forget that the LS1 produce much more power than advertised. also, hp\l doesn't mean much, there are too many factors that go into that.

the non-PI heads suck. the PI heads are adequate at best. the 3V and 4V heads prove that.

 

[CatmanJJ]

HP per liter is ricer math, hp per lb is much better.

 

[97predator]

the LS1 actually makes about 61.5hp per liter. don't forget that the LS1 produce much more power than advertised. also, hp\l doesn't mean much, there are too many factors that go into that.

the non-PI heads suck. the PI heads are adequate at best. the 3V and 4V heads prove that.

all i am saying is the engine produces a similar amount of power when compared to the ls1 in displacement. if the mod motor as bigger, it would make more power. i.e. the 5.4 liter, granted it has the 4V heads, but you get the point. if ford made the mod motor 350 inches in displacement, dimes to donuts it would make similar power. my opinion all od motors ahouls be 4V. period. that way this argument end since the 4V heads are good to go more or less. little P&P and they're set. also another reason you see such an aftermarket for the 5.0 is because edelbrock, holley, trick flow, everyone have been making cylinder heads for 40 years for pushrod engines. the 5.0 is only takign advantage of that. however it wasnt until the late 80's/early 90's when the aftermarket for the 5.0 opened up, for the decade prior it had nothing. they will catch on eventually because the market is there. just takes time. the 4.6L is just stuck in a time warp the same way the 5.0 was.

 

[hedstrosity]

what does the 4 valve heads flow?
i dont know if its possible, but if you could get an afternarket 2 valve head to flow close to a stock 4 valve that would be worth 60hp (not rear wheel i know).
figure 01 cobras are 320 while the dt's are 260....
leaves hope for an aftermarket head.
lets just sit back and give it a year or two.
i cant imagine them costing too much more than a new set of pi heads p&p'd

 

[DBMSTNG]

all i am saying is the engine produces a similar amount of power when compared to the ls1 in displacement. if the mod motor as bigger, it would make more power. i.e. the 5.4 liter, granted it has the 4V heads, but you get the point. if ford made the mod motor 350 inches in displacement, dimes to donuts it would make similar power.

#1, we are talking about the 2V aftermarket, not 4V's.

#2. (260hp/281ci) x 346ci = 320hp. the LS1 makes 350+hp stock out of 346ci with less of a redline. 2V to 2V, the Chevy makes more hp.

my opinion all od motors ahouls be 4V. period. that way this argument end since the 4V heads are good to go more or less.

no one is debating the performance of the 4V heads. the 4V heads are great. the 2V's are less than stellar.

hedstrosity: 4V heads flow around 260cfm while 2V's flow a measly 163cfm. P&P 2V's only flow around 225cfm.

after the price of P&P 2V heads ($1200), cams ($550) and a new intake ($1200). it probably would be cheaper just to do a 4V swap.

 

[hedstrosity]

hedstrosity: 4V heads flow around 260cfm while 2V's flow a measly 163cfm. P&P 2V's only flow around 225cfm.

after the price of P&P 2V heads ($1200), cams ($550) and a new intake ($1200). it probably would be cheaper just to do a 4V swap.

if they can get p&p's stock heads to flow 225cfm i would imagine a "true" aftermarket head could do better.
all im saying is if they could get an aftermarket head to flow as well or close to a stock 4v head then it would be worth 60hp. take a 4v and add cams to that... thats well over $1,000. port work costs alot more on the 4 valves also, and im pretty positive there will never be an aftermarket head for the 4v cause it flows so well already...

as far as the ls1 debate goes. hp per liter the ls1 is on par with a 4v.
my buddys 99 z28 rated at 305 made 300rwhp bone stock.
if your going by the "claimed" horsepower then yes theyre closer to a 2v, but reality shows they are seriously under rated and practically produce what theyre calimed on the flywheel at the rearwheel....
ls1's are the ****znit

 

[DBMSTNG]

if they can get p&p's stock heads to flow 225cfm i would imagine a "true" aftermarket head could do better.
all im saying is if they could get an aftermarket head to flow as well or close to a stock 4v head then it would be worth 60hp.

agreed

take a 4v and add cams to that... thats well over $1,000. port work costs alot more on the 4 valves also, and im pretty positive there will never be an aftermarket head for the 4v cause it flows so well already...

the thing about the 4V heads though, is that you don't need to get them ported or get cams. they make good power "as is", better than the P&P 2v. unless ofcoarse, you wanted to make crazy amounts of power N/A, then getting the 4V heads P&P would be beneficial. people have bought complete DOHC engines for $3k, so i would think you could get the complete heads and intake for around $2k and make more power than spending about $3k on P&P 2V heads, cams and Bullit/Fox lake/Reichard intake.

Ford does have aftermarket 4V heads, the FR500 heads. i don't know what the flow rates are on them though.

 

[1fastTbird]

Several companies have done some R&D for 2V heads, but they deemed it too difficult to create a head with the HP to $ ratio that a consumer would be willing to pay. Basically there would be small gains for big money.
When ported and combined with forced induction, 2V heads are supporting 1000+ HP in some cases. Thats not too shabby for a stock head. But I agree with the others saying that the 3V will unveil some new potential.

 

[BO94ZA4]

Some of this that is talked about in this thread can be done away with about "if it is coming or not". It is going to happen, I have already spoken to some of the companies that are able to do it and I have listed 2 that are within 2 years possibly of them supplying us with a new head and informing me about the development of thier programs. The 4v may flow well but not well enough for an aftermarket head not to be developed, look at the LS1. AFR has already jumped on that band wagon, and there are tons more 96-04 GT's runnin' around than the 97 and up LS1 engine cars.

 

[scheister]

I didn't know that we could use the 4V heads on our 2V motors....Am I hearing this right??

 

[DBMSTNG]

I didn't know that we could use the 4V heads on our 2V motors....Am I hearing this right??

you can. you need to swap the intake, heads, alternator and timing chain as well as getting a Cobra ECU or getting a custom tune.

 

[hedstrosity]

look at the LS1. AFR has already jumped on that band wagon, and there are tons more 96-04 GT's runnin' around than the 97 and up LS1 engine cars.

cost to performance ratio. ls1's easily pick up 60+rwhp with some aftermarket heads.
my buddys making 436rwhp with a mild cam (220 duration @ .050) and a set of ported stock heads. the aftermarket guys make well over 450rwhp...
thats insane man...


so, if they cant design a head that will make decent power and keep the cost down (im guessing $2k or so) i dont think it will ever come out....
i have hope though

 

[kirkyg]

I didn't know that we could use the 4V heads on our 2V motors....Am I hearing this right??

For the price of all the parts its cheaper to just buy an already assembled 4valve engine and drop it in.

kirkyg

 

[hedstrosity]

For the price of all the parts its cheaper to just buy an already assembled 4valve engine and drop it in.

kirkyg

i wouldnt mind doing that, but arent alot of people plagued with problems after a swap like that?
i could swear ive read numerous post about people who have regretted doing the swap

 

[kirkyg]

after a 4.6L dohc swap or 5.4L? the 5.4L just has alot of issues that can potentially cause problems if the swap isn't done right. The 4.6L DOHC (01 cobra motors) will drop right in with 0 problems.

kirkyg

 

[DBMSTNG]

i wouldnt mind doing that, but arent alot of people plagued with problems after a swap like that?
i could swear ive read numerous post about people who have regretted doing the swap

gobabyvrooom is the only one to have a problem that i know of, and that's because of the parties involved, not the swap itself. he made several posts about it.

 

[scheister]

post #500