I am new to the forum, but not new to Mustang motoring. This one has me stumped. Heres the situation: I just found this cherry 1993 Mustang GT so I decided to buy it. When I bought it, it would run strong during acceleration and cruising, but at idle it would die. First, I sanded down the burs on the rotor. This caused it to run a decent bit better. Then I cleaned the carbon out of the throttle body. This casued the problem to basically go away, except on a cold start. Still on a cold start it would die. So i came across a few post which said it was a good idea to clean the MAF and IAC. I cleaned the IAC first. Now the car will turn over (sometimes), but immediately die thereafter. Sometimes, the car doesnt even turn over. Even further sometimes it does turn over and idle but if you depress the accelerator pedal, it dies. So I figued, Id go on to clean the MAF. No change in symptoms. Then I figured i'd go and buy a new IAC and that would solve the problem. No dice there. Its still doing it. I'm stumped...any help would be appreciated. Thank you guys!
Another Mustang Idle problem
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welcome to the forums, i know you said you cleand the cap and rotor, but if you just bought the car it would be a pretty good plan to change the cap/rotor, plugs, wires, PCV valve, check the vacuum hoses, normal tune up stuff.
welcome to the forums, i know you said you cleand the cap and rotor, but if you just bought the car it would be a pretty good plan to change the cap/rotor, plugs, wires, PCV valve, check the vacuum hoses, normal tune up stuff.
Manewaymja2
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- Feb 11, 2009
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I will say i have had these same type of Problems b4 and let me tell you that the Surging idle check list will help you.
Help me create the "Surging Idle Checklist" - Mustang Forums at StangNet
Go there and see where jrichker was a great help to me and has the surging idle check list, this will also apply to your problems. Trust me the man knows his stuff and this checklist is great to go by.
Help me create the "Surging Idle Checklist" - Mustang Forums at StangNet
Go there and see where jrichker was a great help to me and has the surging idle check list, this will also apply to your problems. Trust me the man knows his stuff and this checklist is great to go by.
Okay, so I replaced the cap, rotor, wires, fuel filter and checked over most of the items on the list above. Car appears to be getting worse. Now it wont even crank over. No idea whats going on here! It seems to be getting worse.
Please help!
PS I pulled the codes KOEO and this was what I got Code 95, then in the second set code's 63, 66, and 95.
Please help!
PS I pulled the codes KOEO and this was what I got Code 95, then in the second set code's 63, 66, and 95.
Code 63 - Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) signal too low.
Revised 02-Jul-2009 to update TPS setting procedure & add 10 pin connector layout.
Vref missing (5 volt reference voltage supplied by the computer), bad connections or damaged wiring, TPS sensor failed, TPS sensor way out of adjustment. Use a DVM to check for 5 volts on the Orange wire. If it is missing, look for +5 volts at the Orange wire on the EGR or MAP/Baro sensor located on the firewall near the center of the car. If there is +5 volts on the MAP/Baro sensor, but not on the EGR, clean the #2 & #5 pin on the white 10 pin connector. If there is +5 volts on the EGR but not on the TPS, look for bad wiring inside the engine fuel injector harness.
Setting the TPS voltage
You'll need a Digital Voltmeter (DVM) to do the job.
Wire colors & functions:
Orange/white = 5 volt VREF from the computer
Dark Green/lt green = TPS output to computer
Black/white = Signal ground from computer
Always use the Dark Green/lt green & Black/white wires to set the TPS base voltage.
Do the test with the ignition switch in the Run position without the engine running.
Use the Orange/white & Black white wires to verify the TPS has the correct 5 volts source from the computer.
Setting the TPS: you'll need a good Digital Voltmeter (DVM) to do the job. Set the TPS voltage at .5- 1.1 range. Because of the variables involved with the tolerances of both computer and DVM, I would shoot for somewhere between .6 and 1.0 volts. Unless you have a Fluke or other high grade DVM, the second digit past the decimal point on cheap DVM’s is probably fantasy.
Since the computer zeros out the TPS voltage every time it powers up, playing with the settings isn't an effective aid to performance or drivability. The main purpose of checking the TPS is to make sure it isn't way out of range and causing problems.
The Orange/White wire is the VREF 5 volts from the computer. You use the Dark Green/Lt green wire (TPS signal) and the Black/White wire (TPS ground) to set the TPS. Use a pair of safety pins to probe the TPS connector from the rear of the connector. You may find it a little difficult to make a good connection, but keep trying. Put the safety pins in the Dark Green/Lt green wire and Black/White wire. Make sure the ignition switch is in the Run position but the engine isn't running.
Always adjust the TPS and Idle with the engine at operating temp. Dive it around for a bit if you can and get it nice and warm.
When you probe the leads of the TPS, do not use an engine ground, put the ground probe into the lead of the TPS. You should be connecting both meter probes to the TPS and not one to the TPS and the other to ground.
The TPS is a variable resistor, must like the volume control knob on a cheap radio. We have all heard them crackle and pop when the volume is adjusted. The TPS sensor has the same problem: wear on the resistor element makes places that create electrical noise. This electrical noise confuses the computer, because it expects to see a smooth increase or decrease as the throttle is opened or closed.
TPS testing: most of the time a failed TPS will set code 23 or 63, but not always. Use either an analog meter or a DVM with an analog bar graph and connect the leads as instructed above. Turn the ignition switch to the Run position, but do not start the engine. Note the voltage with the throttle closed. Slowly open the throttle and watch the voltage increase smoothly, slowly close the throttle and watch the voltage decrease smoothly. If the voltage jumps around and isn’t smooth, the TPS has some worn places in the resistor element. When the throttle is closed, make sure that the voltage is the same as what it was when you started. If it varies more than 10%, the TPS is suspect of being worn in the idle range of its travel.
Code 66 MAF below minimum test voltage.
Insufficient or no voltage from MAF. Dirty MAF element, bad MAF, bad MAF wiring, missing power to MAF. Check for missing +12 volts on this circuit. Check the two links for a wiring diagram to help you find the red wire for computer power relay switched +12 volts. Check for 12 volts between the red and black wires on the MAF heater (usually pins A & B). while the connector is plugged into the MAF. This may require the use of a couple of safety pins to probe the MAF connector from the back side of it.
There are three parts in a MAF: the heater, the sensor element and the amplifier. The heater heats the MAF sensor element causing the resistance to increase. The amplifier buffers the MAF output signal and has a resistor that is laser trimmed to provide an output range compatible with the computer's load tables.
If you have a K&N flat panel filter or other filter that requires oiling, excess oil may coat the MAF sensor element and cause problems.
The MAF element is secured by 2 screws & has 1 wiring connector. To clean the element, remove it from the MAF housing and spray it down with electronic parts cleaner or non-inflammable brake parts cleaner (same stuff in a bigger can and cheaper too).
Changes in RPM causes the airflow to increase or decease, changing the voltage output.. The increase of air across the MAF sensor element causes it to cool, allowing more voltage to pass and telling the computer to increase the fuel flow. A decrease in airflow causes the MAF sensor element to get warmer, decreasing the voltage and reducing the fuel flow. Measure the MAF output at pins C & D on the MAF connector (dark blue/orange and tan/light blue) or at pins 50 & 9 on the computer. Be sure to measure the sensor output by measuring across the pins and not between the pins and ground.
At idle = approximately .6 volt
20 MPH = approximately 1.10 volt
40 MPH = approximately 1.70 volt
60 MPH = approximately 2.10 volt
Check the resistance of the MAF signal wiring. Pin D on the MAF and pin 50 on the computer (dark blue/orange wire) should be less than 2 ohms. Pin C on the MAF and pin 9 on the computer (tan/light blue wire) should be less than 2 ohms.
There should be a minimum of 10K ohms between either pin C or D on the MAF wiring connector and ground. Make your measurement with the MAF disconnected from the wiring harness.
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Engine Information
Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
Fuel pump, alternator, ignition & A/C wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
Computer,. actuator & sensor wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Fuse panel layout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/MustangFuseBox.gif
Vacuum routing
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg
[Code 95 causes & tests 91-93 models. –The 95 code is because at one time or another, the fuel pump relay hiccupped and didn't provide power the pump when the computer told it to run. Sometimes this is a one time thing, other times it is a no run or runs poorly condition.
Suspect items are bad fuel pump relay, corrosion in the fuel pump relay socket, inertia switch, wiring damage , corroded connector contacts.
Look for a failing fuel pump relay, bad connections or broken wiring. The fuel pump relay is located under the Mass Air Meter on Fox bodied stangs built after 91. On earlier model cars is under the passenger seat. On Mass Air Conversions, the signal lead that tells the computer that the fuel pump has power may not have been wired correctly. See MAF - Mustang Mass Air Conversion - StangNet - The Mustang Network
Diagram of the fuel pump wiring for 91-93 cars.
Look for power at the fuel pump - the fuel pump has a connector at the rear of the car with a pink/black wire and a black wire that goes to the fuel pump. The pink/black wire should be hot when the test connector is jumpered to the test position. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the lower RH corner to ground. No voltage when jumpered, check the fuel pump relay and fuse links.
Power feed: Look for 12 volts at the pink/black wire (power source for fuel pump relay). No voltage or low voltage, bad fuse link, bad wiring, or connections. Remember that on 92 or later models the fuel pump relay is located under the Mass Air meter. Watch out for the WOT A/C control relay on these cars, as it is located in the same place and can easily be mistaken for the fuel pump relay.
Relay: Turn on the key and jumper the ECC test connector as previously described. Look for 12 volts at the dark green\yellow wire (relay controlled power for the fuel pump). No voltage there means that the relay has failed, or there is a broken wire in the relay control circuit.
91-93 Models:
Using the diagram, check the dark green/yellow wire from the fuel pump relay: you should see 12 volts or so. If not the relay has failed or is intermittent. Check the inertia switch: on a hatch it is on the drivers side by the taillight. Look for a black rubber plug that pops out: if you don't find it, then loosen up the plastic trim. Check for voltage on both sides of the switch. If there is voltage on both sides, then check the Pink/black wire on the fuel pump relay: it is the power feed to the fuel pump. Good voltage there, then the fuel pump is the likely culprit since it is getting power. No voltage there, check the Pink/black wire, it is the power feed to the fuel pump relay & has a fuse link in it. Good voltage there & at the dark green/yellow wire, swap the relay.
Revised 02-Jul-2009 to update TPS setting procedure & add 10 pin connector layout.
Vref missing (5 volt reference voltage supplied by the computer), bad connections or damaged wiring, TPS sensor failed, TPS sensor way out of adjustment. Use a DVM to check for 5 volts on the Orange wire. If it is missing, look for +5 volts at the Orange wire on the EGR or MAP/Baro sensor located on the firewall near the center of the car. If there is +5 volts on the MAP/Baro sensor, but not on the EGR, clean the #2 & #5 pin on the white 10 pin connector. If there is +5 volts on the EGR but not on the TPS, look for bad wiring inside the engine fuel injector harness.
Setting the TPS voltage
You'll need a Digital Voltmeter (DVM) to do the job.
Wire colors & functions:
Orange/white = 5 volt VREF from the computer
Dark Green/lt green = TPS output to computer
Black/white = Signal ground from computer
Always use the Dark Green/lt green & Black/white wires to set the TPS base voltage.
Do the test with the ignition switch in the Run position without the engine running.
Use the Orange/white & Black white wires to verify the TPS has the correct 5 volts source from the computer.
Setting the TPS: you'll need a good Digital Voltmeter (DVM) to do the job. Set the TPS voltage at .5- 1.1 range. Because of the variables involved with the tolerances of both computer and DVM, I would shoot for somewhere between .6 and 1.0 volts. Unless you have a Fluke or other high grade DVM, the second digit past the decimal point on cheap DVM’s is probably fantasy.
Since the computer zeros out the TPS voltage every time it powers up, playing with the settings isn't an effective aid to performance or drivability. The main purpose of checking the TPS is to make sure it isn't way out of range and causing problems.
The Orange/White wire is the VREF 5 volts from the computer. You use the Dark Green/Lt green wire (TPS signal) and the Black/White wire (TPS ground) to set the TPS. Use a pair of safety pins to probe the TPS connector from the rear of the connector. You may find it a little difficult to make a good connection, but keep trying. Put the safety pins in the Dark Green/Lt green wire and Black/White wire. Make sure the ignition switch is in the Run position but the engine isn't running.
Always adjust the TPS and Idle with the engine at operating temp. Dive it around for a bit if you can and get it nice and warm.
When you probe the leads of the TPS, do not use an engine ground, put the ground probe into the lead of the TPS. You should be connecting both meter probes to the TPS and not one to the TPS and the other to ground.
The TPS is a variable resistor, must like the volume control knob on a cheap radio. We have all heard them crackle and pop when the volume is adjusted. The TPS sensor has the same problem: wear on the resistor element makes places that create electrical noise. This electrical noise confuses the computer, because it expects to see a smooth increase or decrease as the throttle is opened or closed.
TPS testing: most of the time a failed TPS will set code 23 or 63, but not always. Use either an analog meter or a DVM with an analog bar graph and connect the leads as instructed above. Turn the ignition switch to the Run position, but do not start the engine. Note the voltage with the throttle closed. Slowly open the throttle and watch the voltage increase smoothly, slowly close the throttle and watch the voltage decrease smoothly. If the voltage jumps around and isn’t smooth, the TPS has some worn places in the resistor element. When the throttle is closed, make sure that the voltage is the same as what it was when you started. If it varies more than 10%, the TPS is suspect of being worn in the idle range of its travel.
Code 66 MAF below minimum test voltage.
Insufficient or no voltage from MAF. Dirty MAF element, bad MAF, bad MAF wiring, missing power to MAF. Check for missing +12 volts on this circuit. Check the two links for a wiring diagram to help you find the red wire for computer power relay switched +12 volts. Check for 12 volts between the red and black wires on the MAF heater (usually pins A & B). while the connector is plugged into the MAF. This may require the use of a couple of safety pins to probe the MAF connector from the back side of it.
There are three parts in a MAF: the heater, the sensor element and the amplifier. The heater heats the MAF sensor element causing the resistance to increase. The amplifier buffers the MAF output signal and has a resistor that is laser trimmed to provide an output range compatible with the computer's load tables.
If you have a K&N flat panel filter or other filter that requires oiling, excess oil may coat the MAF sensor element and cause problems.
The MAF element is secured by 2 screws & has 1 wiring connector. To clean the element, remove it from the MAF housing and spray it down with electronic parts cleaner or non-inflammable brake parts cleaner (same stuff in a bigger can and cheaper too).
Changes in RPM causes the airflow to increase or decease, changing the voltage output.. The increase of air across the MAF sensor element causes it to cool, allowing more voltage to pass and telling the computer to increase the fuel flow. A decrease in airflow causes the MAF sensor element to get warmer, decreasing the voltage and reducing the fuel flow. Measure the MAF output at pins C & D on the MAF connector (dark blue/orange and tan/light blue) or at pins 50 & 9 on the computer. Be sure to measure the sensor output by measuring across the pins and not between the pins and ground.
At idle = approximately .6 volt
20 MPH = approximately 1.10 volt
40 MPH = approximately 1.70 volt
60 MPH = approximately 2.10 volt
Check the resistance of the MAF signal wiring. Pin D on the MAF and pin 50 on the computer (dark blue/orange wire) should be less than 2 ohms. Pin C on the MAF and pin 9 on the computer (tan/light blue wire) should be less than 2 ohms.
There should be a minimum of 10K ohms between either pin C or D on the MAF wiring connector and ground. Make your measurement with the MAF disconnected from the wiring harness.
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Engine Information
Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
Fuel pump, alternator, ignition & A/C wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
Computer,. actuator & sensor wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Fuse panel layout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/MustangFuseBox.gif
Vacuum routing
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg
[Code 95 causes & tests 91-93 models. –The 95 code is because at one time or another, the fuel pump relay hiccupped and didn't provide power the pump when the computer told it to run. Sometimes this is a one time thing, other times it is a no run or runs poorly condition.
Suspect items are bad fuel pump relay, corrosion in the fuel pump relay socket, inertia switch, wiring damage , corroded connector contacts.
Look for a failing fuel pump relay, bad connections or broken wiring. The fuel pump relay is located under the Mass Air Meter on Fox bodied stangs built after 91. On earlier model cars is under the passenger seat. On Mass Air Conversions, the signal lead that tells the computer that the fuel pump has power may not have been wired correctly. See MAF - Mustang Mass Air Conversion - StangNet - The Mustang Network
Diagram of the fuel pump wiring for 91-93 cars.
Look for power at the fuel pump - the fuel pump has a connector at the rear of the car with a pink/black wire and a black wire that goes to the fuel pump. The pink/black wire should be hot when the test connector is jumpered to the test position. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC test connector and jump the connector in the lower RH corner to ground. No voltage when jumpered, check the fuel pump relay and fuse links.
Power feed: Look for 12 volts at the pink/black wire (power source for fuel pump relay). No voltage or low voltage, bad fuse link, bad wiring, or connections. Remember that on 92 or later models the fuel pump relay is located under the Mass Air meter. Watch out for the WOT A/C control relay on these cars, as it is located in the same place and can easily be mistaken for the fuel pump relay.
Relay: Turn on the key and jumper the ECC test connector as previously described. Look for 12 volts at the dark green\yellow wire (relay controlled power for the fuel pump). No voltage there means that the relay has failed, or there is a broken wire in the relay control circuit.
91-93 Models:
Using the diagram, check the dark green/yellow wire from the fuel pump relay: you should see 12 volts or so. If not the relay has failed or is intermittent. Check the inertia switch: on a hatch it is on the drivers side by the taillight. Look for a black rubber plug that pops out: if you don't find it, then loosen up the plastic trim. Check for voltage on both sides of the switch. If there is voltage on both sides, then check the Pink/black wire on the fuel pump relay: it is the power feed to the fuel pump. Good voltage there, then the fuel pump is the likely culprit since it is getting power. No voltage there, check the Pink/black wire, it is the power feed to the fuel pump relay & has a fuse link in it. Good voltage there & at the dark green/yellow wire, swap the relay.
jrich thank you so much! I got it running after checking the inertia switch, then the relay. the relay was quite dirty so I cleaned in and now shes running like a champ....kinda. now she idles about 900 rpms throwing a KOER code 98 and 63. I know the 98 is b/c the KOEO isnt clear, and that a 63 is the TPS. perhaps the tps needs replacement?
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