Best Efi Route

[Saine65]

Sorry for the noob post, new here.

I'm wanting to build a 408w for my 65 and wanting to convert to EFI at the same time but not sure what route is best for me. Currently debating between foxbody intake (9.2 deck lower of course) and harness and carb-style intake with EFI elbow. Also unsure of what management system. At first i thought i would go Megasquirt with the foxbody stuff so it would be mostly plug and play but if I'm going to be installing a harness why not go with a holley terminator and get a new harness? Car will be heavily street driven with the occasional drag race/autocross weekends here and there.

 

[rbohm]

dump the fox body stuff, and go with something like the holley sniper on a four barrel intake. there are number of companies that are building similar systems, and the nice thing is that they are all self learning systems.

 

[Saine65]

dump the fox body stuff, and go with something like the holley sniper on a four barrel intake. there are number of companies that are building similar systems, and the nice thing is that they are all self learning systems.

What would be the gain? I already have all the fox body stuff with 24# injectors, matching maf, a street heat intake, harness and computer ready to go on but I got it dirt cheap and wouldn't mind buying something better if it's worth it.

 

[MustangIIMatt]

dump the fox body stuff, and go with something like the holley sniper on a four barrel intake. there are number of companies that are building similar systems, and the nice thing is that they are all self learning systems.

This, but remember they are not all created equal.

The MSD Atomic is a pile of crap. I have it on my car, and will be selling it soon. It's no better on cold starts than a carburetor, goes through IAC motors about once a year, and takes FOREVER to "self-learn".

I also hear almost nothing good about Fitech or the Professional Products Powerjection product lines.

There are a lot of good ways to go EFI these days. You can even use off-the-shelf OE-style parts with aftermarket management from several companies these days to tailor-make a setup that runs the way YOU want it to. @a91what would be able to tell you a lot more than I could. I'm going back to a good ol' fashioned Edelbrock carburetor on my car in the short-term, and will, depending on which engine swap I go with in the future (playing with the idea of either a 351W or a Coyote), be consulting him on the best way to run the engine I choose to go with.

 

[kevbot]

What would be the gain? I already have all the fox body stuff with 24# injectors, matching maf, a street heat intake, harness and computer ready to go on but I got it dirt cheap and wouldn't mind buying something better if it's worth it.

If you want to sell the injectors and MAF let me know!

 

[rbohm]

What would be the gain? I already have all the fox body stuff with 24# injectors, matching maf, a street heat intake, harness and computer ready to go on but I got it dirt cheap and wouldn't mind buying something better if it's worth it.

reduced complexity for one. second you get a more vintage look with modern electronics. third you get an easier to tune and maintain setup. the holley sniper system has a control panel that mounts in the car so you can make adjustments on the fly if you choose. the EEC VI system is good but it is limited in its ability to adjust to changes outside the range of its programming parameters, and those are hard to change even with a tuner that adds another $800 to your budget, and they cant do on the fly adjustments.

 

[wicked93gs]

Why would go EFI and gimp yourself with a carb-type manifold? The whole POINT of EFI is to increase efficiency and carb-type manifolds are far more restrictive. Nowhere does any OEM since the mid 80s gimp themselves in such a manner. Look at manifolds like the Taurus SHO, the 4.6L Cobra engine, the infamous Olds quad-4, or any number of cross-ram designs to see what some of the possibilities are. As for control...Megasquirt all the way...it has far more capability than the Holley Sniper...and a far lower price(even for the top of the line MS3 Pro). Dont gimp yourself on standalone capability or intake manifold.

 

[Stang_1973]

OK, so i have gone from carbed 302 to FAST EZ-EFI 302 to my current setup Ford system 351 EFI based off the foxbody harness and computer.

To be honest, my favorite was the FAST EZ-EFI. I installed the system myself in my driveway. everything was literally EZ to do. The handheld programmer was straightforward and the car ran great.

I then had a lead on a 351 Roller setup that came with all the parts in my drivetrain sig. so i decided, what the heck, ill use them. I had always read about Ford wiring being tricky so i went with a guy who around here is well known for his knowledge of the classic mustangs as well the 5.0s. Now my isnt the best for a 351, theres still a ton of untapped power in there. However ive realized that it wouldve been easier for me to build power using the EZ EFI. Right now its harder to find EFO stuff for 5.8L but regardless of that. lets say i want to step up my intake, heads and cam combo to get around 400-450 HP, very doable from what ive read. I would need to go back and tune for those upgrades. With the EZ-EFI it would self learn. I could literally take it a step at a time. Right now unless i wanna pay for more retunes, id have to save up and get all the parts and then tune it.

Some systems now even allow for the use of power adders and still self learn i believe. Aftermarket EFI has come a loooooong way in the passed 10 years.

Im actually debating to go back to a carb style manifold and another efi system.

But if you already have the parts and are confident in what you want to do. go for it man.

Heres a guy thats been doing this build for sometime that i follow on youtube. check em out.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwXAhNWjVJY&list=PL_oEM8z39tKCW3RWsbKSSE90E5R968kOC&index=7

 

[Saine65]

Sorry for such a late response, I've been on deployment. But I'm pretty sure I like the idea of port injection over throttle bottle injection. I'm also not apposed to it looking modern. I've been looking into holley terminator kits but still not sure what route I would prefer.

Does anyone have experience with Jim Inglese stack injection with holly terminator? They advertise good streetability but I always though you needed a long intake runner for low end torque and street manners.

 

[rbohm]

inglese always has good stuff. he is the king of weber systems in the US, and the step to EFI was a natural one in this case. as for street manners, that depends on a lot of things, intake runner length is just one of them. but the runner length doesnt start at the intake manifold, it actually starts at the opening where teh air flows in to the system, and in this case at the top of the air horn inglese sets the system up with.

 

[Saine65]

inglese always has good stuff. he is the king of weber systems in the US, and the step to EFI was a natural one in this case. as for street manners, that depends on a lot of things, intake runner length is just one of them. but the runner length doesnt start at the intake manifold, it actually starts at the opening where teh air flows in to the system, and in this case at the top of the air horn inglese sets the system up with.

What you think about the Inglese on a 408 windsor?

 

[rbohm]

inglese on ANY engine makes for a good setup. displacement or engine type doesnt matter.

 

[a91what]

Save some money and use a megasquirt product. An ms3pro or equivalent can be found that will work with the fox harness. My suggestion is to purchase an LS drop on harness with an ms3pro evo. Simply repin the harness for the sbf and use the cam input for the distributor. Imo running a crank and cam sensor combo is more efficient, use an explorer cam sync and a 36-1 wheel on the balancer. Hall sensors make this easy to setup correctly.
Your intake choice is simple to deal with on megasquirt we can tune it with a map and tps combo and the ms even has an itb specific algorithm.
Ls coil packs, will make it look good.

A work in progress.

Doing it this way opens lots of doors..

 

[65ShelbyClone]

All these EFI and intake recommendations and nobody asked how your 408W is built. I get that it's a street engine, but how much power does it make? How high does it rev? What parts are in it?

You have a very small selection when it comes to long-runner 351W EFI intakes.

Why would go EFI and gimp yourself with a carb-type manifold? The whole POINT of EFI is to increase efficiency and carb-type manifolds are far more restrictive. Nowhere does any OEM since the mid 80s gimp themselves in such a manner. Look at manifolds like the Taurus SHO, the 4.6L Cobra engine, the infamous Olds quad-4, or any number of cross-ram designs to see what some of the possibilities are.

Look at the Chrysler Cross Ram carb intakes from the early '60s. The "point" of EFI is subjective. Emissions and fuel economy regulations generally drive manufacturer innovation while performance sells cars. Do you think cars now would have seat belts as standard equipment if laws didn't require it?

An amateur tuner is going to be hard-pressed to match the level of tuning that OEMs were doing even in the early '80s regardless of the intake design or EFI style.

As for control...Megasquirt all the way...it has far more capability than the Holley Sniper...and a far lower price(even for the top of the line MS3 Pro). Dont gimp yourself on standalone capability or intake manifold.

The MS3 Pro isn't cheaper. If you get an MS that's cheaper, it's going to have a crap ECU enclosure, crap d-sub computer connectors, a bunch of DIY requirements, and you rely on a forum for tech support. Firmware updates that break your tune....I especially loved that. Then you go to do tuning and the software won't start until you manually download and install an update. Then it says you have to update Java. Then it can't find the firmware definition you were just using.

 

[wicked93gs]

personally i like the essex V6 over the later 3.7 based engines. but to each their own.

All these EFI and intake recommendations and nobody asked how your 408W is built. I get that it's a street engine, but how much power does it make? How high does it rev? What parts are in it?

You have a very small selection when it comes to long-runner 351W EFI intakes.



Look at the Chrysler Cross Ram carb intakes from the early '60s. The "point" of EFI is subjective. Emissions and fuel economy regulations generally drive manufacturer innovation while performance sells cars. Do you think cars now would have seat belts as standard equipment if laws didn't require it?

An amateur tuner is going to be hard-pressed to match the level of tuning that OEMs were doing even in the early '80s regardless of the intake design or EFI style.



The MS3 Pro isn't cheaper. If you get an MS that's cheaper, it's going to have a crap ECU enclosure, crap d-sub computer connectors, a bunch of DIY requirements, and you rely on a forum for tech support. Firmware updates that break your tune....I especially loved that. Then you go to do tuning and the software won't start until you manually download and install an update. Then it says you have to update Java. Then it can't find the firmware definition you were just using.

True enough, manifold choices will be limited if you don't fab your own...none of the stock EFI offerings for the 351w are all that great...but they will probably still outflow most of the carbed manifolds in the driving range most people drive in(this is open to interpretation and depends on how the motor is built and driven).

Looking up the Holley Sniper, you are also correct on cost....$1050 for the Holley vs $1099 for the cheapest version of the MS3pro(although you are locked into a carb manifold with the Sniper). As for the cheaper MS3s, I never had a single problem out of the "crap" enclosure or the DB37 connectors and I ran MS3 on a daily driver for YEARS. Of course...I do always install my ECUs in-cabin where they should be. Firmware updates were a pain...I'll give you that...but you never actually HAD to update the firmware if it didn't have something you needed. I was tuning just fine on years old firmware, and when I did update it, it wasn't that big of a deal to follow the steps. I never ran into any Java issues at all. Yes, you do need to rely on a forum for support....but the breadth and depth of the knowledge on the forum would put the tech support of many OEMs to shame.

I can say for a FACT your assertion about an amateur tuner not being able to get a better tune that a factory 80s car is just dead wrong. I had mine dialed down to almost perfect and I didn't even spend all that much time tweaking it...most of it was done with autotune in conjunction with a wideband o2 sensor, with just a few manual tweaks by me here and there. You can literally setup Megasquirt and be driving within 15 minutes of idling for the first time, and have a good solid tune down with VEanalyze with a few days of driving...everything past that point is just refinement. Will you be able to match a MODERN OEM for tuning? If you put in enough work....sure, but most amateur tuners never will.

In the end it really comes down to what you need. Megasquirt will give you the most versatility for your dollar.....but will also have the highest learning curve. Holley will work out of the box better....but will limit you in other areas such as manifold choice and versatility.

 

[a91what]

Firmware updates are now done with tunerstudio and no longer require a bootloader.
Dont assume that the ms3pro is the only option out there.. The EFI source goldbox has the same potential at a lower price point. If cost is the only thing you are considering then.... do what you think is best, I like American made products myself.

 

[wicked93gs]

Firmware updates are now done with tunerstudio and no longer require a bootloader.
Dont assume that the ms3pro is the only option out there.. The EFI source goldbox has the same potential at a lower price point. If cost is the only thing you are considering then.... do what you think is best, I like American made products myself.

I usually use DIYautotune.com but thanks for the alternative source. I find myself in need of solution for this 3.7L...I have a MS3 w/ MS3x expansion card I built for it...but I have 4 cam sensors and a crank sensor...all of which are VR sensors and only the one built in VR sensor circuit...leaving me with the only real option being running two 2-circuit VR conditioner boards in the proto area or some type of external VR conditioner box capable of handling 4 inputs and putting out 4 square wave outputs....was considering buying a MS3Pro for it and re-purposing the box I built to run the Folvo instead...but this goldbox might be an option...since they make one for the coyote which is essentially the same number and type of input/outputs.

 

[a91what]

I usually use DIYautotune.com but thanks for the alternative source. I find myself in need of solution for this 3.7L...I have a MS3 w/ MS3x expansion card I built for it...but I have 4 cam sensors and a crank sensor...all of which are VR sensors and only the one built in VR sensor circuit...leaving me with the only real option being running two 2-circuit VR conditioner boards in the proto area or some type of external VR conditioner box capable of handling 4 inputs and putting out 4 square wave outputs....was considering buying a MS3Pro for it and re-purposing the box I built to run the Folvo instead...but this goldbox might be an option...since they make one for the coyote which is essentially the same number and type of input/outputs.

yes they do, if you wanted to simply add VR conditioners they can be done easily with a max9926 chipset and a handful of parts.. however they do not make it in a dip package so an small pcb is the only option. I personally like the JBperf boards but there are rippoffs of the design that can be found on amazon. The max9924 is a single vr conditioner the 9926 has dual conditioners and the best part is they require no crossover adjustment [no pots to deal with]

 

[wicked93gs]

yes they do, if you wanted to simply add VR conditioners they can be done easily with a max9926 chipset and a handful of parts.. however they do not make it in a dip package so an small pcb is the only option. I personally like the JBperf boards but there are rippoffs of the design that can be found on amazon. The max9924 is a single vr conditioner the 9926 has dual conditioners and the best part is they require no crossover adjustment [no pots to deal with]

I considered the JBperf boards as well...I just wasn't sure how well 2 boards were going to fit in my case since I already have the MS3x card taking up so much space...and not sure how I would go about routing the signal from the DB37 to the boards themselves(I guess I could always install another connector(a DB11?....4 input wires, 4 output wires, a 5v source and a ground?) to the case solely for the VR sensors, then pipe the signal back out of the case to MS3X harness? Havent done that particular mod yet...but it doesnt seem particularly clean

 

[a91what]

I considered the JBperf boards as well...I just wasn't sure how well 2 boards were going to fit in my case since I already have the MS3x card taking up so much space...and not sure how I would go about routing the signal from the DB37 to the boards themselves(I guess I could always install another connector to the case solely for the VR sensors, then pipe the signal back out of the case to MS3X harness? Havent done that particular mod yet...but it doesnt seem particularly clean

I agree it does not. however the boards do not have to be in your case they can be mounted externally..

FYI i actually design quite a bit of my own stuff... so if you need something designed or made for your specific application I can help with that.. I am releasing my own expansion module soon but it only has 2 VR conditioners.