Blower VS H/C/I

[S351Saleen77]

Hey guys,
Last week this question was asked and the majority seemed to think a H/C/I was the way to go. A couple people myself included thought the blower was the way to go. The person wanted good gas mileage and driveability and 300rwhp.

I said that normally you LOSE power down low with a bigger cam etc, while with a blower you don't. I know they just did this test in a magazine and it was in the December issue of 5.0 Mustang.

The H/C/I made LESS than stock until 3700rpm. To me that does not mean good gas mileage and driveability. The blower peaked at around 100ft lbs of torque over stock. At 3300rpm it made 72ft lbs more than the H/C/I!


They did a Baseline, then a Paxton blower, then a Edelbrock H/C/I no blower then put the blower on with the H/C/I.

Baseline ...205rwhp
Paxton ...304 rwhp
H/C/I ... 265 rwhp ... Did not equal stock until 3700rpm
Paxton& H/C/I ....474rwhp... Ran out of injector

I know alot of you probably got more with a H/C/I but this is what they got. The cam is really a E303 .498" lift and [email protected], and RPM2 manifold.

I have no idea why they did so bad with the H/C/I? Normally I would have thought it would have been higher, but still will give up power down low to a stocker, and give up alot to a blower. If you went a bigger cam than the E303 for more peak HP you would loose even more down low for seat of the pants everyday driving. I wouldn't want to give up power down low where you really feel it everyday. This is why I would do a blower.

 

[5spd GT]

I went with h/c/i because at that point with 142k on the engine I wanted to 'rebuild the top end'...and I gained 10mph at a 1000 ft track. I do not believe a blower with 8psi or lower would get me that gain in that short of a distance.

Yeah that h/c/i test didn't turn out good, their parts weren't matched to well which I'm sure contributed to the 'bad' numbers.

A supercharger isn't a bad way to go in my opinion though, not bad at all

 

[Pokageek]

Umm... 265 rwhp is waay of on a H/C/I first of all so I would throw out the entire comparison. I had cats on my h/c/i and still got 290+rwhp. Take the cats off and I would be SPOT on with that blower.

TQ was 310rwtq so add 10 for 320rwtq with my h/c/i.

Loss of TQ? Look at Grady's TQ chart, he is at 300rwtq at like 2500rpm ..correct me if I am off on that Grady.

I would say that the TQ on the blower will prob be higher though.

Nice observations, but some of them (not all) are not quite right in my 0 . The less TQ lower down ..I didn't think it was THAT big a difference..anyone else? Cool thread BTW. and yes I would say go blower too. again just my o.

 

[S351Saleen77]

The heads were the 1.9" valve not the 2.02's. The manifold was the new RPM2 which they said was more aggressive then the RPM but was still listed as 1500-6500rpm. Beating the RPM by 1000 rpm on the top. The cam was the only one edelbrock offers and is the E303. This is Edelbrocks "matched" combo

They made 20 runs so they could tune each combo..the blower was the Paxton Novi 2000 but I didn't catch how much boost they ran?

Again I was suprised that they made as little as they did.


Injection is nice......but I'd rather be Blown

 

[gmkillr]

Forget the heads & intake just throw the blower on there, w/ your stock intake ported a little and a nice cam and you can have an instant 500rwhp on untouched stock heads!!!!

 

[final5-0]

It does sound like that NA combo was not all that well matched by the results
you speak about

I do remember that thread last week you talked about.

IIRC, the original poster was looking for more performance and specified
drivibality was critical.

Some had opinions that NA was less of a day to day hassle than forced.

As for low end torque on NA combos .....

My take on that is ... You just pick parts that will accomplish what you desire.

Its really no different than forced combos choices.

If low end torque is your focus ... Are you gonna go centri or screw
type of blower choice

I think that guy was just looking for some info to help him relate
and
He got several opinions to think about

Grady

 

[sage2k]

very soon I will be sporting the following:
Trickflow H/C/I
24lb injectors
BBK 75mm Tbody
Ebay CAI
Mac Longtubes + prochamber + mac pro dumps
3.73 gears
T5 with alum flywheel
Stock MAF
Tweecer RT

My friend (stanger007) will have:
stock heads/cam
Vortech s-trim (stock pulleys I believe)
Ported cobra intake
Mac longtubes + prochamber + mac exhaust
4.10 gears
built 4r70w in aode case with 2800 stall
Lightning 90mm MAF
Tweecer RT with wideband


Ima try and convince him to get a dyno with me and then we can get some real world results
I have a feeling he will dyno higher due to having a ported intake (which seems to go well with a blower) and a wideband for WOT tuning.

 

[Kevins89notch5.0]

Both the blower numbers, and the H/C/I numbers seem off. Up until recently, I had a stock longblock with a S-Trim. I never dynoed it, but ran a 11.9! Over the years, I"ve seen that combo via here, corral, etc dyno 320-360.

 

[Venom351R]

The key to good MPG on any blown or H/C/I car is a good tune. Both can be achieved on either one.

 

[final5-0]

very soon I will be sporting the following:
Trickflow H/C/I
BBK 75mm Tbody
Ebay CAI
Mac Longtubes + prochamber + mac pro dumps
3.73 gears
T5 with alum flywheel
Stock MAF
Tweecer RT

You may just have just over looked your injectors but that combo will need
a larger size than the OEM 19's

Since you are gonna Tweecer tune you would not use elevated fuel pressure
to make them act larger.

You might get by with that OEM meter but I really think you will peg it

If money is tight ... I'd move that 75tb to the bottom of the list and put that
cash toward inj's/meter

Grady

 

[Pokageek]

Forget the heads & intake just throw the blower on there, w/ your stock intake ported a little and a nice cam and you can have an instant 500rwhp on untouched stock heads!!!!

?Not buying it.

 

[S351Saleen77]

I was thinking of the question last week and he talked about a Vortech vs H/C/I.

This article was just out in the last couple of months so I thought I would say what they found out. I don't see how the H/C/I got as little power as it did but thats what happened. They had plenty of dyno time to tune it but it didn't work. The supercharger did exactly what I thought it would.

In his question he also talked about driveability and gas mileage. This test shows that sometimes matching heads/cam /and intake might be a gamble. Whats weird is this was a "matched" combo from a big name! If someone did this he would end up with a dog of a daily driver that was down on power and gas mileage below 3700rpm. I would just be pissed off! What a waste of money!!

On the other hand if you got a H.O. blower kit 8-10lbs of boost on a stock engine daily driver you give nothing up down low (you gain as boot starts), gas mileage stays the same cruising down the freeway (If you can keep your foot out of it) and I have never seen one not deliver what they promise. No guessing on matching componets.

Anyway the reason I started this was not to bash on H/C/I'S but to show what can and just happened. Probably 90% of the responses were for him to go H/C/I.
If it was me I would go a blower.

I had a stock 88gt that was a California mass air car. It had a badly dented H-pipe and flowmasters on stock exhaust. I put on shorty headers, bigger mass air and TB and a 14psi Procharger. The thing was making 5 lbs of boost at around 3500rpm. It made around 340-350 rwhp and was a blast to drive. Way more power down low than stock.

 

[S351Saleen77]

Forget the heads & intake just throw the blower on there, w/ your stock intake ported a little and a nice cam and you can have an instant 500rwhp on untouched stock heads!!!!

I looked at your engine pics and you have a Cobra. So you have GT40 heads with 1.7rr and you have a Cobra intake. What kind of boost are you making? Nice car by the way

I have never seen a stocker make that power with low boost.

 

[Pokageek]

" No guessing on matching componets."

There isn't anymore guessing at H/C/I than there is at tuning a blower. Just look at all the combos here that are effective. Almost everyone h/c/i with decent aftermarket heads is 290+ - 300+rwhp.

One of the guys here with TFS dyno'd at 314rwhp+ with a 302. That's why I went trick flow. I really haven't run into anyone here with a good set of heads, maf, intake or kit as such that is not making near or over what I am making.

I think that test was bias toward blowers. It may have been conducted by someone promoting blower over H/C/I and they wanted it to look bad on the H/C/I side. There ARE however several people on these forums with all sorts of headaches after putting blowers on their cars. That's why I steered clear of it and went H/C/I. I still like blown better though, lol.

 

[5spd GT]

Losing 50lbs on the front (al. heads) is better than adding 50lbs (supercharger) to the front. I do like the idea that the supercharger can be 'moved' from engine to engine and still perform great. A intake/head/cam may not work well with other engines - strokers, etc for max. power.

Tuning is something that is a factor as well. Some do not have a reputable blown tuner in their area. A h/c/i is more forgiving as stated.

Just some other ideas...

 

[S351Saleen77]

Again I'm just pointing out to what happened and was just in 5.0 magazine.

The H/C/I was a supposedly matched combo that didn't work. I'm just stating the facts of what they found. I don't think they tried to make it look bad for the H/C/I it is just what happened. I'm sure edelbrock wasn't too happy with their findings. I find it hard to belive they did something like this on purpose.

Most 6lb or 8-10lb blower kits make what they claim with the recommended FMU. Most of the time If you dyno them they are a little rich and safe. If you want more power then you can pay for a chip etc. They are not as much of a tuning hassle as was made out to be on here. Just my point of view I have had them on daily drivers with no hassle's.

My whole point is that a blower is a good option that you can bolt on and not loose driveability down low or gas mileage. You can take it off when you sell the car to recoup some money if you want. I was just surprised that it was so biased towards a H/C/I combo on here. Thats what is great about these forums is getting everyone's opinion!

 

[Pokageek]

I personally am not bias although I am curious who is..(I really dont know). I think we are just saying if you are going to use a comparison, use a fair one. That article does not include a fair comparison and is way off from the results first hand of many people here and on most other sites.

As to hassle of matching components, it is not. We have seen major trouble with blown combos though including blown head gaskets and blown engines from incoorect parts or tune. Again, I a mnot bias to one side or another really , just bias to fair comparisons. I am also curious to look into who 5.0's sponsors are because I thought they were usually a good source although on this particular article, they are dead in accurate compared to the majority of real life examples I and many here know about.

Also : "My whole point is that a blower is a good option that you can bolt on and not loose driveability down low or gas mileage. "

I totally agree with you on this point if it works out that way.

 

[sage2k]

You may just have just over looked your injectors but that combo will need
a larger size than the OEM 19's

Since you are gonna Tweecer tune you would not use elevated fuel pressure
to make them act larger.

You might get by with that OEM meter but I really think you will peg it

If money is tight ... I'd move that 75tb to the bottom of the list and put that
cash toward inj's/meter

Grady

Ah yes, I do have 24lb injectors going in with it, will try stock MAF for now and if I peg it I will look into another one.

 

[S351Saleen77]

When I talked about the guess work in getting a matched H/C/I I wasn't talking about picking a kit which 5.0 did, but there are how many heads out there? 20+ different kinds, how many cams? Intakes? People will always mix and match. Do you use AFR 165's, 185's, etc etc. I know its not rocket science and I would have no problem doing it, but when you buy a supercharger kit it is complete no guessing what it will do in the 300rwhp range. There are guys that will put too big of a head or cam (do I use a B or E or F?) or intake and loose bottom end over stock and gas mileage. If a guy asks the question 300rwhp, driveability,gas mileage, he will get a bunch of different answers on which is the H/C/I to use. The other thing Is on gas mileage...if you cruise on the freeway at say 2200-2400rpm. Is your H/C/I making more power than stock and getting better mileage? A blower dosen't affect power and mileage cruising on the freeway at that rpm.

I am just throwing out the pros of a supercharger. Summit sells the Vortech kit for $2800 complete you can get the SQ quiet or the standard kit with the whine which I love!!

You all make good points and that is what I wanted. Also to make people think that Supercharging is not so bad! Thanks for your opinions!




If you bolted this kit on it would be problem free and give you exactly what you paid for.
Below is a quote from Vortech's website, Which is exactly the power he was talking about in a complete kit.

"1994-1995 Ford Mustang GT & Cobra 5.0L Supercharging Systems
The addition of the V-2 SQ S-Trim supercharger will increase horsepower from 215 to 319 and torque from 285 lb./ft. to 370 lb./ft. at 6-8 psig at the flywheel*. The V-1 T-Trim is available for those looking for high horsepower applications.*"

Also" Vortech has taken away the headaches of building a custom kit by engineering these kits to have a true OEM-quality fit and finish. Each kit is 100 percent complete, right down to the wire ties. Most kits include a matched compressor supercharger unit with SQ technology for "Super Quiet" operation. A high-flow air intake system with a reusable air filter, heat-resistant silicone hose couplings, and premium grade flex hose are included as well. Also included are flow-tested cast aluminum and/or urethane air discharge tubing, a compressor bypass valve, OEM-style heat-treated cast 356 aluminum mounting brackets, a supercharger drive pulley, integrated belt tensioner, premium drive belt, stainless steel clamps, and heavy-duty mounting hardware. Kits are available in both satin and polished finishes and come with a step-by-step fully illustrated installation manual. "

 

[Pokageek]

""1994-1995 Ford Mustang GT & Cobra 5.0L Supercharging Systems
The addition of the V-2 SQ S-Trim supercharger will increase horsepower from 215 to 319 and torque from 285 lb./ft. to 370 lb./ft. at 6-8 psig at the flywheel*. The V-1 T-Trim is available for those looking for high horsepower applications.*"

That sounds like a deal at $2800 S351Saleen77. And thanks for not taking my points/opinions personally either.

The HP on that kit is 20 higher than what you would typically get from a H/C/I and the TQ is about even. That kit looks like the bolt on and forget one too. Very nice. Thanks for posting.

Want to know One thing I liked at first and then got on my nerves after a while? The rock n' roll idle. It sounded cool but made the car feel like a junker at the lights after a while with the shaking.