Broken Bleeder Valve - Newbie needs help

[foothilltom]

Hi folks, your help is sincerely appreciated.

I'm an absolute beginner here, but willing to learn! My 15 year old son just bought a 69 Mustang Coupe (302, $1400, a real father-son project let me tell you) and one of our first projects was to bleed the brakes.

We got to the last wheel (right rear) and damn if the stupid bleeder valve didn't SNAP right off, flush with the drum. I tried in vain to drill it out, but my "easy out" broke off inside. I am cursed, it seems.

I've seen references to this calamity elsewhere and folks start saying things like "replace the wheel cylinder". I think I know what that is (the little cylinder inside the wheel that holds the fluid?), but I have NO IDEA how this is going to solve the broken bleeder valve.

The valve screws into the drum itself, so I'm not sure how this gets better if I replace the cylinder. Won't I still have to drill out the damnable little screw inside?

Do I even know what a Wheel Cylinder is? I thought about trying to remove the entire wheel assembly to work on it from a bench (it's hard jamming my head into the wheel well after all), but I don't even know how to do that.

If someone could weigh in and let me know specifically how replacing the wheel cylinder solves the broken bleeder valve, I'll be most grateful. Opinions on the value of trying to extract the screw vs. replacing other parts is also welcome.

In short, I know very little, but am trying really hard to do this ourselves.

Many, many thanks!
Tom

I'm t

 

[10secgoal]

The bleeder valve goes into the wheel cylinder. It may look all one peice under there if it's not clean. But there should be two 1/2 in bolts facing towards the inside of the car that when removed will let you see the wheel cylinder move. You will ahv eto take off the tire, drum and brakes to get it completely off though.

 

[foothilltom]

Oh man, that is excellent. So, if I'm understanding, the bleeder valve is actually screwed INTO the cylinder and not the back of the wheel drum itself? It's VERY grimy in there, so it's likely I didn't see the "seam".

Ok, now I'm confident enough to go get these parts and restore my son's confidence in his old man. Yeah, baby.

Thanks very, very much. I appreciate it.

Tom

 

[Grabber70Mach]

First of all welcome Tom and I think its great that you and your son are taking this project on together. The bleeder screw is is part of the wheel cylinder and I think you would be better off replacing it. You won't be able to remove the whole assembly without removing the drum first, the brake shoes, the axles, then the backing plate. Look at the attached link for more info on wheel cylinders.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/bf60330.htm

I would suggest going to your local parts store and getting a manual for your mustang. If you can't find one there try some of the mustang vendors on the web. Don't know where you are located at, but I've dealt with CJ's pony parts for years.

 

[Grabber70Mach]

10secgoal has got you on track. You'll have to remove the drum to get to the wheel cylinder itself. If you have trouble removing the drum you will probably have to loosen the tensioner, You access this from the back at the bottom you should see a long slinder rubber plug remove this and you can loosen the tensioner with a flat blade screw driver or a brake spoon.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/bf60330.htm

Check this article out it might help you.

 

[rbohm]

when you go back to bleed the brakes, you start with the right rear, and end with the left front. it goes right rear, left rear, right front, left front when bleeding the system. always start with the one furthest away from the master cylinder.

 

[BarnStang]

And don't forget to check the fluid level in the master cylinder while you're bleeding the brakes. If you run one of the reservoirs dry, you will be pumping air in.

 

[foothilltom]

Thanks to all of you for your excellent and helpful replies. We will get the brake cylinder replacement and probably just wind up buying the entire kit for both wheels. We'll definitely bleed these puppies again, only this time in the proscribed order.

I have a strong feeling my son and I are going to be frequent posters to this forum while we embark on this fun but long road together. I'll post a pic of the coupe before we got started just for fun.

Thanks again.
Tom and Tommy

 

[stonecoldtx]

Thanks to all of you for your excellent and helpful replies. We will get the brake cylinder replacement and probably just wind up buying the entire kit for both wheels. We'll definitely bleed these puppies again, only this time in the proscribed order.

I have a strong feeling my son and I are going to be frequent posters to this forum while we embark on this fun but long road together. I'll post a pic of the coupe before we got started just for fun.

Thanks again.
Tom and Tommy

Hi, Tom & Tommy--

Some additional words of advice . . .

I'm going to make some statements that many or most of the experienced folks on here would take for granted, but that's because they HAVE that experience, and it would appear from your statements that you probably don't.

With that in mind, I will make no assumptions regarding your actual level of technical or experience level, and will base my statements upon one who has no experience whatsoever.

Brake systems are the most critical systems on a car . . . you can make a car run fast all day long, steer well, ride nice, but if you can't STOP . . . well, I think you get the picture.

Having said that--I STRONGLY recommend you follow the advice of a previous poster, and obtain a shop manual.

I also recommend you read up on how to change/install/repair brakes, because if you don't get it right . . . SOMEBODY COULD GET HURT OR WORSE!!

Now--when you are replacing the wheel cylinders, make sure to use TUBING wrenches on the brake lines, and be very careful--those tubing nuts have probably never been loose since it was built, they're somewhat soft, and they may be very difficult to remove without rounding them off.

If you are unable to remove the tubing without rounding off the tubing nuts, you can purchase new straight tubing that will run from the distribution block on the rear axle assembly to each wheel cylinder (you will most likely need to make some bends with a tubing bender), or you can purchase pre-bent lines at places like mustangsunlimited.com. In this particular case, you would just cut the line(s) at the wheel cylinder and remove it/them from the block on the rear axle assembly.

If you do need to replace the tubing, and perhaps this is contrary to what others believe, I STRONGLY recommend that you NOT try to flare the tubing yourself, for a couple of reasons:

1.) Because the tubing you can purchase already has the correct, double-flare with the correct angle already fabricated (though, it might not be the correct LENGTH, but can be bent around to take up some or most of the excess length--do a search for "brake lines" and that should produce some results of people who have bent up their own tubing)
2.) If you don't get it right, again, you might have a failure in your braking system that might get someone hurt or killed.
3.) It sometimes can be very difficult, even with the right tubing flare tool to create a double-flare.

A double-flare is absolutely necessary on braking systems to prevent leakage, due to the very high pressures involved.

It's really not that expensive to buy new straight tubing, or even the pre-bent stuff, but when you compare the costs of buying that new tubing to the costs of an injury or death, the cost of the tubing really doesn't matter, does it? It's cheap insurance in the event you need to replace it.

Now, since you're in there, and have to remove much of the hardware around the brake cylinder to replace it (i.e.: springs, adjuster, etc.), it's probably a good idea to go ahead and replace the SHOES while you're in there. They're pretty cheap--most likely $20 or less per set at most auto parts stores.

To replace the shoes, you will need to ensure that the surfaces of the drums are perfectly smooth . . . it is possible that the ones you have *MIGHT* be able to be "turned" (they put them on a lathe, and basically cut metal out of the drum across it's face until it's smooth)--the parts stores usually can do this for you, too.

The parts stores also have measuring tools that they can use to determine IF the drums can be turned or not. If they CAN'T, well, you will need to replace THOSE as well . . . but they're really not all that expensive--I think you can buy new ones for between $25 and $50 each, depending on the brand and the parts store.

Now, once you get those wheel cylinders and shoes on, install the "Turned" or new drums (and replace the brake lines, if necessary), it's time to follow the instructions of rbohm regarding bleeding the brakes!

I hope this helps . . .

 

[rbohm]

Hi, Tom & Tommy--

Some additional words of advice . . .

I'm going to make some statements that many or most of the experienced folks on here would take for granted, but that's because they HAVE that experience, and it would appear from your statements that you probably don't.

With that in mind, I will make no assumptions regarding your actual level of technical or experience level, and will base my statements upon one who has no experience whatsoever.

Brake systems are the most critical systems on a car . . . you can make a car run fast all day long, steer well, ride nice, but if you can't STOP . . . well, I think you get the picture.

Having said that--I STRONGLY recommend you follow the advice of a previous poster, and obtain a shop manual.

I also recommend you read up on how to change/install/repair brakes, because if you don't get it right . . . SOMEBODY COULD GET HURT OR WORSE!!

Now--when you are replacing the wheel cylinders, make sure to use TUBING wrenches on the brake lines, and be very careful--those tubing nuts have probably never been loose since it was built, they're somewhat soft, and they may be very difficult to remove without rounding them off.

If you are unable to remove the tubing without rounding off the tubing nuts, you can purchase new straight tubing that will run from the distribution block on the rear axle assembly to each wheel cylinder (you will most likely need to make some bends with a tubing bender), or you can purchase pre-bent lines at places like mustangsunlimited.com. In this particular case, you would just cut the line(s) at the wheel cylinder and remove it/them from the block on the rear axle assembly.

If you do need to replace the tubing, and perhaps this is contrary to what others believe, I STRONGLY recommend that you NOT try to flare the tubing yourself, for a couple of reasons:

1.) Because the tubing you can purchase already has the correct, double-flare with the correct angle already fabricated (though, it might not be the correct LENGTH, but can be bent around to take up some or most of the excess length--do a search for "brake lines" and that should produce some results of people who have bent up their own tubing)
2.) If you don't get it right, again, you might have a failure in your braking system that might get someone hurt or killed.
3.) It sometimes can be very difficult, even with the right tubing flare tool to create a double-flare.

A double-flare is absolutely necessary on braking systems to prevent leakage, due to the very high pressures involved.

It's really not that expensive to buy new straight tubing, or even the pre-bent stuff, but when you compare the costs of buying that new tubing to the costs of an injury or death, the cost of the tubing really doesn't matter, does it? It's cheap insurance in the event you need to replace it.

Now, since you're in there, and have to remove much of the hardware around the brake cylinder to replace it (i.e.: springs, adjuster, etc.), it's probably a good idea to go ahead and replace the SHOES while you're in there. They're pretty cheap--most likely $20 or less per set at most auto parts stores.

To replace the shoes, you will need to ensure that the surfaces of the drums are perfectly smooth . . . it is possible that the ones you have *MIGHT* be able to be "turned" (they put them on a lathe, and basically cut metal out of the drum across it's face until it's smooth)--the parts stores usually can do this for you, too.

The parts stores also have measuring tools that they can use to determine IF the drums can be turned or not. If they CAN'T, well, you will need to replace THOSE as well . . . but they're really not all that expensive--I think you can buy new ones for between $25 and $50 each, depending on the brand and the parts store.

Now, once you get those wheel cylinders and shoes on, install the "Turned" or new drums (and replace the brake lines, if necessary), it's time to follow the instructions of rbohm regarding bleeding the brakes!

I hope this helps . . .

excellent information. i will modify one line in here though, mostly as a point of information use only, and only if you plan on building a high performance brake system in the future;

A double-flare is absolutely necessary on braking systems to prevent leakage, due to the very high pressures involved.

this in not entirely true. but you would have to swap to AN style fittings with a 37 degree flare. this allows a single flare to handle the system pressure generated. but this is only used in very high performance or race applications, and i only put this out as a point of information.