camming a 2v. school me please

fiveoho

fiveoho

15 Year Member
Apr 28, 2005
1,958
16
69
TN
#1
i know when you just "stick" a cam in a stock 5.0, it sounds great but doesnt really help with performance much. sometimes it may even harm more than help, partially due to the poor flowing e7 heads. then you gotta worry with idle issues, driveability, and so on. well, is a PI sohc 4.6 the same way or not?

heres some Q's for ya-

how well do the stock heads flow?
can i swap out the stock cams for a milder set and see some gain?
is it really that hard to do?
how much labor cost would it be, estimated?
do i need to swap the valve springs out for stiffer ones?
can it be driven w/o a tune? ( i know 94/95 computers are very picky...are 99 computers the same?)
what all is needed besides the cams?
comp makes some mild street cams for around $600, what other options are there?


sorry for all the questions, just curious. fwiw, this would be for a 99 GT.
 

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#2
stage1 or 2 cams will give you a noticable lope at idle and will increase performance. when you install cams on a 4.6 you have to have your car tuned on a dyno to get the gains out of them and to make your car drivable again. depending on how mechanically inclined you are you can probably swap them yourself. if you swap in stage 1s you wont need stiffer springs. anything past that yes you will. options for cams are comp, crower, cushman, (same as vt cams) and i believe crane has some out too but nobody i know of is running them. not sure what the stock heads flow but you can look that up on the net. with stage 1s you should be able you drive the car to the dyno just go easy on it.
 
#3
Well, i has some of those same questions when i got into the cam game last November.

A. 165/150cfm isn't bad, at .550" (which aftermarket PI cams mostly are) it's more like 173/154. And that's not bad - not good either; but you don't need ported heads to feel the gains of a cam.
B. Milder as in milder than stock? I assume you don't mean that so let's consider various stage 1's. The nice thing about stage 1's is you lose very little tq down low in the rpms. And you don't need to wind the engine out to 6200 to feel the best gain from them either, cuz revving to 6200/6400 when you just happen to be low on oil is not the best scenario. You can look at duration in general to determine the drastic level of the cam - but LSA (lower being tighter and more drastic for a NA cam) is a good indicator as well. It varies between Comp Cams, VT (CMS'), Crower, Crane - but a stage 1 is good for 14-20rwhp peak to peak, and about 32-40rwhp at around 5800-6100. Loss of torque can range from 4-12rwtq in the sub 3200rpm range. Stage 2's you can add 5-10 to each of those stats and do better with ported heads, expect to rev to 6200-6800. Stage 3's should require ported heads to do as they are expected, 6400-7k.
C. The most technical part is timing the cams, then degreeing them if they are a stage II, or III. Labor takes awhile to get it all right - but it's not rocket science.
D. Labor is from $750-950 from an established shop. I've heard of $1100 too but that's just a rip off.
E. Yes if you go stage II+. I went with beehive springs - i bought them new off craigs list for $100, expect to pay around $175.
F. Stage I's can be driven without tune, if you want to get the most out of your cam most if not all builders say get a dyno tune or a tune from someone who has tuned those cams often via mail. Nice thing about modulars is you can tune the hell out of em, keep tweeking on the dyno till perfect with a computer.
G. New cam bolts since your gears are press on, but mine came with new bolts. Valve cover gaskets. Assembly oil. If you do it yourself the spring depressor tool by ford for changing springs with the head on ($100-120).
H. All cams from comp cam cost the same, like all other cams. It being a different grind doesn't matter to them - so they all cost the same. $550 is what comp cams should go for.
I'd recommend looking at CMS', once you register on their site u get a discount as well. But look at all cams and vids of em so find what's you looking for.
 
#4
CobraRed_96_GT said:
Well, i has some of those same questions when i got into the cam game last November.

A. 165/150cfm isn't bad, at .550" (which aftermarket PI cams mostly are) it's more like 173/154. And that's not bad - not good either; but you don't need ported heads to feel the gains of a cam.
B. Milder as in milder than stock? I assume you don't mean that so let's consider various stage 1's. The nice thing about stage 1's is you lose very little tq down low in the rpms. And you don't need to wind the engine out to 6200 to feel the best gain from them either, cuz revving to 6200/6400 when you just happen to be low on oil is not the best scenario. You can look at duration in general to determine the drastic level of the cam - but LSA (lower being tighter and more drastic for a NA cam) is a good indicator as well. It varies between Comp Cams, VT (CMS'), Crower, Crane - but a stage 1 is good for 14-20rwhp peak to peak, and about 32-40rwhp at around 5800-6100. Loss of torque can range from 4-12rwtq in the sub 3200rpm range. Stage 2's you can add 5-10 to each of those stats and do better with ported heads, expect to rev to 6200-6800. Stage 3's should require ported heads to do as they are expected, 6400-7k.
C. The most technical part is timing the cams, then degreeing them if they are a stage II, or III. Labor takes awhile to get it all right - but it's not rocket science.
D. Labor is from $750-950 from an established shop. I've heard of $1100 too but that's just a rip off.
E. Yes if you go stage II+. I went with beehive springs - i bought them new off craigs list for $100, expect to pay around $175.
F. Stage I's can be driven without tune, if you want to get the most out of your cam most if not all builders say get a dyno tune or a tune from someone who has tuned those cams often via mail. Nice thing about modulars is you can tune the hell out of em, keep tweeking on the dyno till perfect with a computer.
G. New cam bolts since your gears are press on, but mine came with new bolts. Valve cover gaskets. Assembly oil. If you do it yourself the spring depressor tool by ford for changing springs with the head on ($100-120).
H. All cams from comp cam cost the same, like all other cams. It being a different grind doesn't matter to them - so they all cost the same. $550 is what comp cams should go for.
I'd recommend looking at CMS', once you register on their site u get a discount as well. But look at all cams and vids of em so find what's you looking for.
Click to expand...


i greatly appreciate you taking the time to type all that up. so if im wanting to do a few minor bolt ons, full exhaust and a programmer then stage 1's will prob be a better way to go? from what you say it seems mod motors respond better to a cam swap than the pushrod 5.0. so even with a stage 1 cam(s), i should feel a difference? i see you said i will loose some torque down low, im guessing that can be helping by a 3.73 or 4.10 gear swap.

do the stage 1's still sound pretty nasty? if i decided to do this in the future, i def want people along with myself to notice its cammed.

give me your suggestions as far as manufacturers and specific cams.

just curious, any idea how mild or wild these are? i love the way it sounds
YouTube - 2003 Mustang GT

thanks again for the help
 
#6
Those cams you linked sound like xe262ah's (which are stage one's) to me - unless it's cold then they might be 270ah's but i doubt it. I understand where you're coming from wanting the power but also the older muscle sound - while many just consider sound and buy stage 3's and end up having piston to valve issues (PTV), even on imperfectly degreed stage 2's (common among comp cam). Also note in the video how loud under his hood clatter is, that's not uncommon among comp cams either. The "lope" as we say also has to do with your exhaust set up too. A chambered muffler and offroad pipes help, IMO shorties help more than LT's for sound as well - but definitely get LT's if you can for power. I like the sound of my set-up (even if it is hard to hear over my engine clacking due to faulty PI heads currently) even with straight through mufflers and a catted X. The cats i need for cali and the straight through are all that will work for my side exhaust.

Here are links to a few vids i've put of of my cams in other cars, the second stang a PI swap as well. Stage 1 CMS cams

Notice less engine clatter as well:
YouTube - VT(CMS) stage 1 n/a mustang cams Idle

O/R mid pipe, chambered mufflers and dumps:
YouTube - Mustang GT VT stage 1 cams, PI swapped

Most stage 1's don't sound that lopey, but his set up must be perfect

Springs:
Springs aren't mandatory on stage 1's. I bought them because I found a great deal, and up top in the rpm's it will help, but not a whole lot. It just makes me feel better since the stock springs weren't designed to return the valve that fast in the lift cycle (further lift with not much more duration means further travel in around the same time = faster re-seating required needing often more spring seat pressure).

If you have anymore questions post 'em up or pm me.
 
#7
CobraRed_96_GT said:
Those cams you linked sound like xe262ah's (which are stage one's) to me - unless it's cold then they might be 270ah's but i doubt it. I understand where you're coming from wanting the power but also the older muscle sound - while many just consider sound and buy stage 3's and end up having piston to valve issues (PTV), even on imperfectly degreed stage 2's (common among comp cam). Also note in the video how loud under his hood clatter is, that's not uncommon among comp cams either. The "lope" as we say also has to do with your exhaust set up too. A chambered muffler and offroad pipes help, IMO shorties help more than LT's for sound as well - but definitely get LT's if you can for power. I like the sound of my set-up (even if it is hard to hear over my engine clacking due to faulty PI heads currently) even with straight through mufflers and a catted X. The cats i need for cali and the straight through are all that will work for my side exhaust.

Here are links to a few vids i've put of of my cams in other cars, the second stang a PI swap as well. Stage 1 CMS cams

Notice less engine clatter as well:
YouTube - VT(CMS) stage 1 n/a mustang cams Idle

O/R mid pipe, chambered mufflers and dumps:
YouTube - Mustang GT VT stage 1 cams, PI swapped

Most stage 1's don't sound that lopey, but his set up must be perfect

Springs:
Springs aren't mandatory on stage 1's. I bought them because I found a great deal, and up top in the rpm's it will help, but not a whole lot. It just makes me feel better since the stock springs weren't designed to return the valve that fast in the lift cycle (further lift with not much more duration means further travel in around the same time = faster re-seating required needing often more spring seat pressure).

If you have anymore questions post 'em up or pm me.
Click to expand...

i def want to stay away from ptv issues, so 3's are out plus im sure it would be a absolute dog out of the hole anyway. 2's require springs and place the powerband slightly higer, right? i think 1's may be the way to go and keep my stock springs and have the power addition in more of a usable rpm range for the street.

i think ive almost made my decision on what exhaust to go with : stock headers ( for now ) o/r x pipe ( prob upr , pypes or bbk ) and magnaflow magnapack catback. also considering the slp II catback as well. i really like the straight thru mufflers on the 4.6. the clips you sent are perfect sound examples. i really like the sound of both.

heres another vt 1 clip with chambered mufflers, still sounds great. YouTube - 2003 Cammed Mustang GT start up and rev

so if i went with a set of stage 1 cams including labor, count on at least around $1350 ? would think a ford dealership could do this swap or would you leave it up to a performance shop? could the car be driven around without a tune after the swap safely?

thank you again
 
#8
fiveoho said:
i def want to stay away from ptv issues, so 3's are out plus im sure it would be a absolute dog out of the hole anyway. 2's require springs and place the powerband slightly higer, right? i think 1's may be the way to go and keep my stock springs and have the power addition in more of a usable rpm range for the street.

i think ive almost made my decision on what exhaust to go with : stock headers ( for now ) o/r x pipe ( prob upr , pypes or bbk ) and magnaflow magnapack catback. also considering the slp II catback as well. i really like the straight thru mufflers on the 4.6. the clips you sent are perfect sound examples. i really like the sound of both.

heres another vt 1 clip with chambered mufflers, still sounds great. YouTube - 2003 Cammed Mustang GT start up and rev

so if i went with a set of stage 1 cams including labor, count on at least around $1350 ? would think a ford dealership could do this swap or would you leave it up to a performance shop? could the car be driven around without a tune after the swap safely?

thank you again
Click to expand...
Keep in mind my two vids and ur vid are all chambered mufflers - but i do love the sound of magnapacks and an o/r x's. X and pakcs is what i'm using for my side pipes, have always loved this vid's sound:
YouTube - Magnapacks + O/R X

A dealer should be able to do it no prob - especially stage 1's since they just need to be timed. the diff between stage I and II is "tune suggested" and "tune required". I think half of the suggested is so you'll be happy with the power results of the cam, but even I would suggest it; i bought a tuner from Tim @ modular powerhouse (country wide know for modular stangs) and he put a tune on it for my cams/head swap/built tranny and so forth.
 
#9
CobraRed_96_GT said:
Keep in mind my two vids and ur vid are all chambered mufflers - but i do love the sound of magnapacks and an o/r x's. X and pakcs is what i'm using for my side pipes, have always loved this vid's sound:
YouTube - Magnapacks + O/R X

A dealer should be able to do it no prob - especially stage 1's since they just need to be timed. the diff between stage I and II is "tune suggested" and "tune required". I think half of the suggested is so you'll be happy with the power results of the cam, but even I would suggest it; i bought a tuner from Tim @ modular powerhouse (country wide know for modular stangs) and he put a tune on it for my cams/head swap/built tranny and so forth.
Click to expand...

i have that same exact vid in my favorites :D. i love the sound of that car.

i see what you mean about the disclaimer of the cams. suggested to get the full benefit but it can be run w/o a tune.

probably a dumb question here but ill ask anyway: i have a diablo sport tuner. can tunes be downloaded via internet ( from a shop, such as MPH) and uploaded to the tuner then downloaded again to the car for cam swaps?
 
#13
i hear alot of people speak highly of modular powerhouse. well, i just called them to get a quote for a cam swap ( just out of curiousity ). the cams will be about $600, never told me what brand or any info. he said ALL cams , including stage 1s, will require different springs - $200. i asked what labor would be to do this, $1250 :eek: . then he further said it HAS to have a tune to run right. i didnt even ask what that cost

so they want $2050 + tax for cams, springs and install. and whatever the cost of the tune added to that.

he used quite a bit of profanity on the phone as well. not very professional imo.

just wasnt very impressed with MPH. i dont know much about this mod stuff but 1250 labor just seems rediculous
 
#14
fiveoho said:
i hear alot of people speak highly of modular powerhouse. well, i just called them to get a quote for a cam swap ( just out of curiosity ). the cams will be about $600, never told me what brand or any info. he said ALL cams , including stage 1s, will require different springs - $200. i asked what labor would be to do this, $1250 :eek: . then he further said it HAS to have a tune to run right. i didnt even ask what that cost

so they want $2050 + tax for cams, springs and install. and whatever the cost of the tune added to that.

he used quite a bit of profanity on the phone as well. not very professional imo.

just wasnt very impressed with MPH. i dont know much about this mod stuff but 1250 labor just seems ridiculous
Click to expand...
That's odd, i wonder if you were talking to Tim. I've heard $1250 for cams, and I've heard $1250 for a entire PI swap, lol. If you already have a Diablo tuner then you can have a diablo tuning shop tune your car on a dyno, i think most places wont send you a tune without buying a tuner with it. All his cams cost the same because they all take the same amount of effort/material to make. If i were you and wanted to keep it on the cheaps I'd buy a set of used stage 1 cams off of corral.net, shop around for an install at a place you've heard good things about, and have a shop that uses Diablo dyno tune it which should be around $100 an hour.
 
#15
CobraRed_96_GT said:
That's odd, i wonder if you were talking to Tim. I've heard $1250 for cams, and I've heard $1250 for a entire PI swap, lol. If you already have a Diablo tuner then you can have a diablo tuning shop tune your car on a dyno, i think most places wont send you a tune without buying a tuner with it. All his cams cost the same because they all take the same amount of effort/material to make. If i were you and wanted to keep it on the cheaps I'd buy a set of used stage 1 cams off of corral.net, shop around for an install at a place you've heard good things about, and have a shop that uses Diablo dyno tune it which should be around $100 an hour.
Click to expand...

cool. so used low mile cams are just fine? i called another place here in Tn, Delk performance. i 1/2 way know the owner, which i did not and do not plan to use that as price leverage ( wouldnt work anyway ). he was more helpful on the phone and didnt give the impression like i was bothering him. he quoted $1300 for labor. he says he drops the whole motor to do the swap. i guess maybe its just that expensive :shrug: . if so, mine will just stay stock i suppose

how bout i just pay you to come to Tn and do the swap for me :D . you cheaper than $1250?
 
#16
Ha, if i lived in TN i'd do it with you for some beers (cam swaps take a lot regardless of payment, lol). Maybe the price has gone up since people realize the modular is no fun to work on, last time i was quoted it was $950 and $1100. I've done mine once and someone else's with him, both stage 1's so i've never degreed cams. About to do mine again due to faulty heads, but i might have a local shop owner who's a friend do them for me since I'm low on free time.
I sent you a pm. Used cams are 95% of the time fine, not much can go wrong with them if they got the oil they needed. I was gunna buy my stage 1 VT cams off 03Mustang on these boards before he drove his TT GT into a gaurdrail at 150+mph - so i got mine through Jim cushman, like his second order since going solo with his VT grinds.

Picture006-2.jpg
 
#18
TN roadtrip! :D

i called the ford dealership for a quote on cam swaps. they said $750 labor. do you think they are capable? i do know that our dealership, and should be with any, will stand behind their work. could i find a shop that does diablo tunes and purchase a "order" tune for cammed 2v cars, download it to my tuner and install it on my car?
 
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