Can all this be from bad o2 sensors/

281pony

Active Member
Aug 31, 2003
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Oly, WA
i ran codes with the car running today for the first time. i don't know why i never did before, i always did it with the key turned over. anyways, my symptoms are this;

-bucking in gear under load of light throttle. like cruising throttle amount.
-since i attempted to adjust my TPS/lowered idle rpm, now it has a surging idle.
-idle hangs at 1300ish when i push in clutch until i come to a complete stop, then drops down to normal. is that just a vss function though?

anyways, i pulled 41, 91 and 33. there is no egr, so scratch 33. lean banks on both o2 sensors.

i don't see how i can have a vacuum leak, the car runs great. it doesnt surge/didn't surge until i adjusted the tps/lowered idle from 1000 to 800. so if i put them back where they were, im sure there will be no issue with surging again.

so with all those symtoms, primarly the loaded bucking symptom, o2 sensors on BOTH sides can be the problem? i dont have a voltmeter anymore, i had to borrow one to adjust tps. is it highly unlikely that both failed though? i'm sick of this stupid driveability stuff..
 
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Things to check:

Power at O2's. You dont have a meter so thats kinda hard.

Make sure the orange ground at the back of the passenger side head is connected. Its not an injector ground as some say. Its the ground circuit for the 02's. If left unhooked, then code 91 and 41 will show.
 
ok, i checked my tps. its at .99 at idle, i moved the throttle as slowly/consistant as i could repeatively. it compensated and maxed at 5.01 or something WOT. smooth sweep as far as i can tell, even at the lightest throttle change.

so back to o2 sensors.. i am putting on my other IAC i have, cleaning it before hand, and resetting battery.

i've had this surging idle and it keeps biting me in the ass. first i found it was caused by my alternator being shot, then my maf was bad. then it went away for the most part unless the car was hot then it surges under certain circumstances;

hot car, let out clutch slowly, nearly kill it, push it back in to save the car from dying. then it surges from 1000-1400.

hot starts, it surges upon initial start up. cold starts it's fine.
 
ok. i went over all sensors/connections, o2's are grounded, bbk throttle body is whistling again at 950 rpm idle, tps is adjusted and transitioning smoothly on the meter. battery was disconnected for 30 minutes.

surging started on cold start, figured car was "learning" again. drove it, STILL bucking in gear at very light throttle. to help describe it, i shift at 2000 rpm roughly just puttin around. when i go into the next gear, if im at relative cruising speed i give it light throttle. at this throttle (1400-1800 rpm) its light enough to cause the car to buck. it rattles the entire car/people/**** on the dash around.

it does no longer surge though like it did after i turned my idle down to 800 from the 950ish its at now. so, does anyone think this is all cam related? trickflow stage 1 cam. both o2 banks are reading lean, whats the easiest way to test these?

once again, what is the probability of these BOTH going bad, and causing these symptoms? if it's possibly linkable, my lights twitch. the dash lights, headlights, everything twitches at idle.

almost seems like a grounding issue, with the 3g alt. except for it's got dual 4 gauge ground wires off each side of the block, to the strut tower bolts. :shrug:
 
timing is at 12. maf is a new pmas 24# calibrated meter.

i just grounded two 2g wires off the block to the chassis (sway bar bolts).

ill read how to test the o2's and see what i get. i'm near worthless with electrical, but i gotta try atleast :rolleyes:
 
Code 41 or 91 Three digit code 172 or 176 - O2 sensor indicates system lean. Look for a vacuum leak or failing O2 sensor.

Revised 24-Sep-2009 to correct computer pin description for 94-95 5.0 Mustangs

Code 41 is a RH side sensor,
Code 91 is the LH side sensor.

Code 172 is the RH side sensor
Code 176 is the LH side sensor

The computer sees a lean mixture signal coming from the O2 sensors and tries to compensate by adding more fuel. Many times the end result is an engine that runs pig rich and stinks of unburned fuel.

The following is a Quote from Charles O. Probst, Ford fuel Injection & Electronic Engine control:
"When the mixture is lean, the exhaust gas has oxygen, about the same amount as the ambient air. So the sensor will generate less than 400 Millivolts. Remember lean = less voltage.

When the mixture is rich, there's less oxygen in the exhaust than in the ambient air , so voltage is generated between the two sides of the tip. The voltage is greater than 600 millivolts. Remember rich = more voltage.

Here's a tip: the newer the sensor, the more the voltage changes, swinging from as low as 0.1 volt to as much as 0.9 volt. As an oxygen sensor ages, the voltage changes get smaller and slower - the voltage change lags behind the change in exhaust gas oxygen.

Because the oxygen sensor generates its own voltage, never apply voltage and never measure resistance of the sensor circuit. To measure voltage signals, use an analog voltmeter with a high input impedance, at least 10 megohms. Remember, a digital voltmeter will average a changing voltage." End Quote

Testing the O2 sensors 87-93 5.0 Mustangs
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear. The computer pins are 29 (LH O2 with a dark green/pink wire) and 43 (RH O2 with a dark blue/pink wire). Use the ground next to the computer to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.


Testing the O2 sensors 94-95 5.0 Mustangs
Measuring the O2 sensor voltage at the computer will give you a good idea of how well they are working. You'll have to pull the passenger side kick panel off to gain access to the computer connector. Remove the plastic wiring cover to get to the back side of the wiring. Use a safety pin or paper clip to probe the connections from the rear. The computer pins are 43 (LH O2 with a red/black wire) and 44 (RH O2 with a gray/lt blue wire). Use the metal next to the computer to ground the voltmeter. The O2 sensor voltage should switch between .2-.9 volt at idle.


Note that all resistance tests must be done with power off. Measuring resistance with a circuit powered on will give false readings and possibly damage the meter. Do not attempt to measure the resistance of the O2 sensors, it may damage them.

Testing the O2 sensor wiring harness
Most of the common multimeters have a resistance scale. Be sure the O2 sensors are disconnected and measure the resistance from the O2 sensor body harness to the pins on the computer.

The O2 sensor ground (orange wire with a ring terminal on it) is in the wiring harness for the fuel injection wiring. I grounded mine to one of the intake manifold bolts

Make sure you have the proper 3 wire O2 sensors. Only the 4 cylinder cars used a 4 wire sensor, which is not compatible with the V8 wiring harness.

Replace the O2 sensors in pairs if replacement is indicated. If one is weak or bad, the other one probably isn't far behind.

If you get only code 41or 91 and have changed the sensor, look for vacuum leaks. This is especially true if you are having idle problems. The small plastic tubing is very brittle after many years of the heating it receives. Replace the tubing and check the PVC and the hoses connected to it.
A secondary problem with only a code 41 or 91 is for cars with an intact smog pump and cats. If the tube on the back of the heads clogs up, all the air from the smog pump gets dumped into one side. This excess air upsets the O2 sensor calibration and can set a false code 41 or 91. The cure is to remove the crossover tube and thoroughly clean the insides so that there is no carbon blocking the free flow of air to both heads.


Surging idle problems
See the "Surging Idle Checklist for help with all your idle/stall problems. Everything you need to find and fix idle problems is in there.

The first two posts contain all the updates to the fixes. At last count there were 24 possible causes and fixes for surging idle/stall problems. I continue to update it as more people post fixes or ask questions.
 
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