Car is very hard to start and runs rough

[The Shape]

Well this is actually about a friends 2.3 hatch rather than a 5.0 , but the 2.3 forum is so dead I thought I would ask here. Ok so i went over to look at my friends stang because it wouldn't start. I checked and verified it was firing. I also made sure the timing belt hadn't broken or jumped a tooth that was all ok. Then I was finally able to get it to start by pushing the gas pedal to the floor. Which I assume cuts the injectors out same as on the 5.0. It ran rough and had a thick black smoke coming from the exhaust, it was running really rich. I cut it off and pulled the dip stick and it had a strong gas smell. I then checked the plugs and they were fouled with fuel as well. So I know it is flooding itself for some reason. I swapped the MAF from my 2.3 beater on to his car to rule it out with no change. I pulled the codes and got ECT and ACT sensors out of range?? Would either of those cause this problem? If either I would assume the ECT would be most likely is that right? And "IF" that sounds like a good possibility does anyone know where the ECT might be located on '92 2.3 I never could find it.

 

[HISSIN50]

though the codes indicate ECT and ACT, I would not necessarily look there for an answer. The car is running rich (or trying to run rich), so it would not *seem* as though the ECT/ACT are out of calibration on the lean side (I very well could be wrong). And if they are out of spec on the rich side, you have not gotten it to run long enough yet to know.

Then again, who knows - maybe those sensors are so far gone, they are causing the fouling. Did this just happen overnight? Or did the car sit for a bit of time?

I might clear the KAM so it can forget whatever it has learned and see what it does (do note that if it has slowly adapted to working with this rich condition, it might not start at all if the KAM is cleared).

Or drive it a bit and see if it can figure itself out.

Wow, that was no help at all. Good luck James.

 

[PRO50SC]

though the codes indicate ECT and ACT, I would not necessarily look there for an answer. The car is running rich (or trying to run rich), so it would not *seem* as though the ECT/ACT are out of calibration on the lean side (I very well could be wrong). And if they are out of spec on the rich side, you have not gotten it to run long enough yet to know.

Then again, who knows - maybe those sensors are so far gone, they are causing the fouling. Did this just happen overnight? Or did the car sit for a bit of time?

I might clear the KAM so it can forget whatever it has learned and see what it does (do note that if it has slowly adapted to working with this rich condition, it might not start at all if the KAM is cleared).

Or drive it a bit and see if it can figure itself out.

Wow, that was no help at all. Good luck James.

LOL!! I wouldn't say that. You have very good insite!! Usually the ect will have an effect on a hot start if it is bad. It sees almost 5 volts when cold and then decreases as the engine warms. However, if it was continually started when hot and then shut off, there would be a large amont of unburned fuel in the combustion chambers as well as the crank case. Causing the no start condition. I had this problem a few mos. back with my wifes Explorer. I would, change the oil, replace or clean the plugs, start it and clear out all the unburned gas and go from there. Def look into trouble shooting the ect.

 

[90mustangGT]

Your getting fuel, that is for sure, now are you lacking spark or compression?
Check the strength of the spark. Also be sure it is getting spark to the plugs themselves. If that is good, I would also go to check the compression, a dead cylinder on a 4 banger is much worse than on a 8. Don't exactly rule out the compression loss as a bad motor if this is what you find. Excessive fuel can wash the rings and cause you to loose compression, so until it gets some oil back in there, you might get bad compression readings. Check for hydorcarbon's in the cooling system. A compression and leakdown test should be performed if the fuel and ignition are good.

-edit- also be sure the EGR isn't stuck open.

 

[The Shape]

Ok, I am thinking if the ECT sensor doesn't work the next step is a compression test (be a good excuse to buy one) I failed to mention this wasn't something that happened overnight as in he didn't just get up one morning and it wouldn't start. He said he had been having to crank it a few times to get it running when the engine was hot for a while now. The while coming home from work the other night it just started to run rough and seemed to lose power. By the time he got home and turned it off it wouldn't crank back. I finally got it to crank today by pressing the throttle to the floor, and it will the set there and run it just runs extremely rough and blows clouds of soot out the pipe.

 

[PRO50SC]

Ok, I am thinking if the ECT sensor doesn't work the next step is a compression test (be a good excuse to buy one) I failed to mention this wasn't something that happened overnight as in he didn't just get up one morning and it wouldn't start. He said he had been having to crank it a few times to get it running when the engine was hot for a while now. The while coming home from work the other night it just started to run rough and seemed to lose power. By the time he got home and turned it off it wouldn't crank back. I finally got it to crank today by pressing the throttle to the floor, and it will the set there and run it just runs extremely rough and blows clouds of soot out the pipe.

That is a classic symptom of an ect problem and since there was a code for that, I would start there.

Once it's running can you ever clear the fuel out? How does it run once it's warmed up or have you not gotten that far? Could have also ruined the converter and clogged it causing the lack of power especially form all the extra fuel.

 

[The Shape]

Haven't ran it long enough to clear all of the fuel since it's running so rough, but i am going back over there tommorow after work to mess with it some more. We are gonna go ahead and swap the ECT out and see what happens. It is very possible the convertor could be clogged as well by now, it definetly has a lot of smoke and soot coming from the pipe. I am sure that can't be good for the cat.

 

[TylerDurden]

hunk of crap

Well, now we got it cranked and stopped the flooding. Now it just runs rough as hell and you put it in gear it gradually dies. At and up to about 2500 rpms there is a clanking noise, which sounds like one of the cats. Can the cat actually be so damn screwed up it will cause my new symptoms?

 

[The Shape]

As said above we got it started. It will idle on it's own no problem although it is rough. If you give it gas it will run rough and has a noise that sounds like a loose heat shield on the cat until you pass about 2500 rpm's then it smooths out and runs fine.

 

[TylerDurden]

loose heat shield?

Louder than that...sounds more like W shaking his head.

 

[Black1987Stang]

Maybe ur fuel pressure regualtor is shot? The diaphram inside can leak and fuel will get sucked into the intake through the vacuum line and cause it to run real rich and stuff like ur describing., I dont no if this is the same as the 2.3 though. The ECT sounds like it def also could be the culprit...Im pretty sure they dont have a 5 volt reference...just a ground and a signal wire, this is with a 5.0 anyways good luck

 

[The Shape]

Yeah we did change the ECT but no tluck. Also I did think of the FP regulator and am almost positive I pulled the vaccum line and it was dry. But if you're reading this Shon go pull the vaccum line off of your fuel pressure regulator and see if it is wet or smells like gas. I think I checked that , but being as it was 12 degrees outside when we were wroking on it I may have missed it.

 

[HISSIN50]

..... it was 12 degrees outside when we were wroking on it I may have missed it.

Now that is the sign of a good friend.

 

[The Shape]

After replacing the ECT I got it to start and idle without having to touch the throttle which is atleast an improvement. It is still idles pretty rough but it smooths out about 3k. I am wondering if all of the flooding from the bad ECT could have clogged one of the cats causing the problem we have now? I left the battery cable off of it over night to see if clearing the computer might help any. I haven't talked to him today to see if he tried cranking it after the computer has been cleared or not yet.

 

[HISSIN50]

James, if you have a vac gauge, put it on a manifold vac line and rev it up to an RPM and hold it steady. Look for the vac gauge reading to start to drop after 10-30 seconds. If it does drop, that suggests an exhaust restriction.

Good luck.

 

[The Shape]

Really? I didn't know that JT. I will do that test sometime this week when I get back over there.