Catch Can or Air Oil Separator???

Oil seperator

I used this set up from Moroso. I also had the tiny seperator can from steeda and it worked as well but i replaced with this one.

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My understanding was if you are N/A you keep your factory PCV and run the closed oil/air separator like the moroso one I got, But if you are supercharged or turbocharged you run the catch can with the breather... I don't know...:shrug:

I used the moroso one just in case if i "ever" go supercharger i can just drilled the top and add the breather.
 
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Well i am going to get a breathered catch can friday and i am going to plumb both the valve cover and pcv valve to it and i will let ya guys know what i come up with. I was also thinking bout putting a breather on the valve cover also. Thanks for the help and feed back tho!
 
you dont need the breather on the valve cover if you have the catch can. The reason most guys go to the catch can is to avoid having a push in style breather falling onto the headers during hard acceleration and causing a fire under the hood.
 
I see no proof, or pudding

The pudding is the fact that it's done in the first place. If you want to learn more then go and hunt around the internet to learn about engine ventilation. I am here to give advice to the OP, and am not here to provide documentation. I have a degree in aeronautics which is how I became aware of these things. Even jet engines have a pcv system.

Race cars don't always have positive crankcase ventilation because they never put enough miles on the engine to be concerned with ventilation, and that outweighs that added complication of adding the system. But don't worry, you wouldn't be the first person to try and apply race car logic to street cars on this website.

Kurt
 
This here, is the poop... It will separate the oil, has a catch can, the check valves are already incorporated, and it returns the separated oil to the pan once the motor is shutdown:

Lingenfelter Oil Air Vapor Separator PCV System Oil Catch Can - Lingenfelter Performance

Lingenfelter didn't invent the thing though... Near as I can tell, Mann-hummel did.

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https://www.mann-hummel.com/company/index.html?iKeys=3.1.180.0.0&cScr=35&rec_no=192
 
The pudding is the fact that it's done in the first place. If you want to learn more then go and hunt around the internet to learn about engine ventilation. I am here to give advice to the OP, and am not here to provide documentation. I have a degree in aeronautics which is how I became aware of these things. Even jet engines have a pcv system.

Race cars don't always have positive crankcase ventilation because they never put enough miles on the engine to be concerned with ventilation, and that outweighs that added complication of adding the system. But don't worry, you wouldn't be the first person to try and apply race car logic to street cars on this website.

Kurt

I really dont care about what degree you have, has nothing to do with this thread and neither do jet engines. If you have any links or documentation on why the PCV stuff is better than i catch can i would love to read it. Im interested in learning about the facts but when you say stuff you should have information to back it up.
 
I see no proof, or pudding

It's pretty much common knowledge that when running breathers and no PCV that the oil gets contaminated sooner and requires more frequent changing.

With a breather or catch can (which is just a remote breather system) the oil vapor exits the engine by rising to the top and through the breather opening. With a PCV or vac pump system the vapor is sucked out under vacuum which is more efficient and gets more of the contaminants out.

Kind of like an exhaust fan versus an open window....which works better?
 
Wiki said:
System components and operation details
The PCV valve is only one part of the PCV system, which is essentially a variable and calibrated air leak, whereby the engine returns its crankcase combustion gases. Instead of the gases being vented to the atmosphere, gases are fed back into the intake manifold, to re-enter the combustion chamber as part of a fresh charge of air and fuel. The PCV system is not a classical "vacuum leak". All the air collected by the air cleaner (and metered by the mass flow sensor, on a fuel injected engine) goes through the intake manifold. The PCV system just diverts a small percentage of this air via the breather to the crankcase before allowing it to be drawn back in to the intake tract again. It is an "open system" in that fresh exterior air is continuously used to flush contaminants from the crankcase and into the combustion chamber.

The system relies on the fact that, while the engine is running under light load and moderate throttle opening, the intake manifold's air pressure is always less than crankcase air pressure. The lower pressure of the intake manifold draws air towards it, pulling air from the breather through the crankcase (where it dilutes and mixes with combustion gases), through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold.

The PCV system usually consists of the breather tube and the PCV valve. The breather tube connects the crankcase to a clean source of fresh air—the air cleaner body. Usually, clean air from the air cleaner flows into this tube and into the engine after passing through a screen, baffle, or other simple system to arrest a flame front, to prevent a potentially explosive atmosphere within the engine crank case from being ignited from a back-fire in to the intake manifold. The baffle, filter, or screen also traps oil mist, and keeps it inside the engine.

Once inside the engine, the air circulates around the interior of the engine, picking up and clearing away combustion byproduct gases, including a large amount of water vapor which includes dissolved chemical combustion byproducts, then exits through another simple baffle, screen, or mesh to trap oil droplets before being drawn out through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold. On some PCV systems, this oil baffling takes place in a discrete replaceable part called the oil separator.

During the mid 1960s, substantial work was completed on an entirely independent crankcase ventilation system. The Engine Ventilation System had its own air intake filter, a sizable crankcase gases filter, condensate chamber, and highly engineered air flow valve.[citation needed] The system recycles clean water vapor, filters light oil, and filters air into the intake system before the carburetor, resulting in lower carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions and extended engine oil life. Ford Motor Company made this system a requirement on all its material handling equipment (lift trucks) in 1971. This system was also used extensively on over-the-road diesel trucks and irrigation pumps. The AMA's choice[clarification needed] of catalytic converter made automotive use unlikely.[citation needed]

The PCV valve connects the crankcase to the intake manifold from a location more-or-less opposite the breather connection. Typical locations include the opposite valve cover that the breather tube connects to on a V engine. A typical location is the valve cover(s), although some engines place the valve in locations far from the valve cover. The valve is simple, but actually performs a complicated control function. An internal restrictor (generally a cone or ball) is held in "normal" (engine off, zero vacuum) position with a light spring, exposing the full size of the PCV opening to the intake manifold. With the engine running, the tapered end of the cone is drawn towards the opening in the PCV valve by manifold vacuum, restricting the opening proportionate to the level of engine vacuum vs. spring tension. At idle, the intake manifold vacuum is near maximum. It is at this time the least amount of blow by is actually occurring, so the PCV valve provides the largest amount of (but not complete) restriction. As engine load increases, vacuum on the valve decreases proportionally and blow by increases proportionally. With a lower level of vacuum, the spring returns the cone to the "open" position to allow more air flow. At full throttle, vacuum is much reduced, down to between 1.5 and 3" Hg. At this point the PCV valve is nearly useless, and most combustion gases escape via the "breather tube" where they are then drawn in to the engine's intake manifold anyway.


Should the intake manifold's pressure be higher than that of the crankcase (which can happen in a turbocharged engine, or under certain conditions, such as an intake backfire), the PCV valve closes to prevent reversal of the exhausted air back into the crankcase again. In many cases PCV valves were only used for a few years, the function being taken over by a port on constant depression carburetors such as the SU. This has no moving parts or diaphragm to jam, block or rip like many PCV valves. It also doesn't have a 'one-way' function but the lack of it was never a problem in intake backfire.

It is critical that the parts of the PCV system be kept clean and open, otherwise air flow will be insufficient. A plugged or malfunctioning PCV system will eventually damage an engine. PCV problems are primarily due to neglect or poor maintenance, typically engine oil change intervals that are inadequate for the engine's driving conditions. A poorly-maintained engine's PCV system will eventually become contaminated with sludge, causing serious problems. If the engine's lubricating oil is changed with adequate frequency, the PCV system will remain clear practically for the life of the engine. However, since the valve is operating continuously as one operates the vehicle, it will fail over time. Typical maintenance schedules for gasoline engines include PCV valve replacement whenever the air filter or spark plugs are replaced. The long life of the valve despite the harsh operating environment is due to the trace amount of oil droplets suspended in the air that flows through the valve that keep it lubricated.

[edit] Alternatives in non-car-and-light-truck usageNot all petrol engines have PCV valves. Engines not subject to emission controls, such as certain off-road engines, retain road draft tubes. Dragsters use a scavenger system and venturi tube in the exhaust to draw out combustion gases and maintain a small amount of vacuum in the crankcase to prevent oil leaks on to the race track. Small gasoline two stroke engines use the crankcase to partially compress incoming air. All blow by in these engines is burned in the regular flow of air and fuel through the engine. Many small four-cycle engines such as lawn mower engines and small gasoline generators, simply use a draft tube connected to the intake, between the air filter and carburetor, to route all blow by back into the intake mixture. The higher operating temperature of these small engines has a side effect of preventing large amounts of water vapor and light hydrocarbons from condensing in the engine oil.

:dead:
 
That wasn't too hard to find, thanks Noobz347. The point is that when I state an opinion it's your choice to believe it or not. Whether you do or not doesn't bother me.

Kurt
 
A good catch can system is run hoses from PCV and valve covers holes to a ventilated can (can be a homemade PVC pipe with threaded caps and fittings for the hoses and a little filter on top) filled with activated carbon . Then , change the carbon every six months or early , and empty the moisture from can every month ...

The activated carbon eliminates odors and corrosive vapors from the catch can . And is cheap too ...
 
Kind of pointless to run a line from the pvc to the catch can. It's not going to fkow anything of there is no vacuum to suck it open.

Kurt
It's one more "calibrated leak" to relief the pressure of a blown motor when on boost .Together with the valve covers hoses breathers running to a catch can , it's a good non-vacuum system . It's calibrated since that is compensated in the calibration (maf transfer).

With a NA car is a plus , but since it's a open blow-by system with no vacuum , can help in a evacuation of the moisture . All that is for those that won't use a closed system (PCV) .

With car idling , you can see the gases leaving from the PCV hole back in the intake (condensation with moistures). I can see with a flashlight in dark garage.
 
LOL you guys are goin deep with this one! Thanks for the help tho. The catch can i was looking at has fittings on both sides of it. If i was to run one side back to the intake do you think i wild still suck the oil thro or wld it separate before the intake? If i did it that way it would still be like the stock but with a catch can in the middle right?
 
LOL you guys are goin deep with this one! Thanks for the help tho. The catch can i was looking at has fittings on both sides of it. If i was to run one side back to the intake do you think i wild still suck the oil thro or wld it separate before the intake? If i did it that way it would still be like the stock but with a catch can in the middle right?


If you run the catch can from the PCV on one side to the intake on the other side then yes, it will work just fine for what it is. The can will catch whatever is forced into it from the PCV port (to a point).

If you're running breathers on the valve covers with that setup, then your intake will pull air from those breathers into the intake when at idle or cruising at part throttle. That means you're pulling unmetered air into the intake. It's the same has having a vac leak. The cure is to use breathers with integrated check valves. Air will be allowed to exit (under boost) but not enter.
 
LOL you guys are goin deep with this one! Thanks for the help tho. The catch can i was looking at has fittings on both sides of it. If i was to run one side back to the intake do you think i wild still suck the oil thro or wld it separate before the intake? If i did it that way it would still be like the stock but with a catch can in the middle right?
If it's that home depot air/water separator , in my case it doesn't work. With NA h/c/i it continued suck oil thro ... Later I made a large panel to block the oil inside my RPM2 lower intake and other larger separator , but the problem was just minimized. So , I changed to a open system.
If you run the catch can from the PCV on one side to the intake on the other side then yes, it will work just fine for what it is. The can will catch whatever is forced into it from the PCV port (to a point).

If you're running breathers on the valve covers with that setup, then your intake will pull air from those breathers into the intake when at idle or cruising at part throttle. That means you're pulling unmetered air into the intake. It's the same has having a vac leak. The cure is to use breathers with integrated check valves. Air will be allowed to exit (under boost) but not enter.
If he compensate in the modeling MAF tuning , no problem with unmetered air into intake . There are some cars that are original with a hose collecting clean air from the box filter before the MAF (Ford Focus, Ford Ka, some volkswagen cars , Audis ,Etc.) . The Maf is calibrated for that leak .
 
If it's that home depot air/water separator , in my case it doesn't work. With NA h/c/i it continued suck oil thro ... Later I made a large panel to block the oil inside my RPM2 lower intake and other larger separator , but the problem was just minimized. So , I changed to a open system.

If you're getting excessive oil through the separator/catch can then you're trying to pull too much air volume through the small orifice. Potential cures are:

Multiple routes of travel (more lines pulling air form more sources)
Opening up the sources you have

Either way, by increasing the size/number of port(s) you decrease the volume of air through a single small port causing the air to slow down. The slower that air moves, the fewer heavier particles (oil droplets) you will pick up. If the top of your motor is also continuously flooded with oil (i.e. HV oil pump), then you're increasing the amount of oil that gets splashed up by both cam and crank and vaporize a larger volume of oil.

If he compensate in the modeling MAF tuning , no problem with unmetered air into intake . There are some cars that are original with a hose collecting clean air from the box filter before the MAF (Ford Focus, Ford Ka, some volkswagen cars , Audis ,Etc.) .



You cannot tune for a vac leak with a, "calibrated" MAF. No manufacturer would take that on since the volume of air allowed to enter the motor unmetered will vary greatly from motor to motor.

You could do it by changing fuel mapping through a dyno tune or programmer fed with information from a wideband o2 meter but hardware wise? Not so much.

The Maf is calibrated for that leak .

Incorrect. The EEC is tuned to operate correctly with build of the engine. What's more, our cars are not tuned for that same circumstance. If you change the inlet characteristics of the Focus then you have to tune to compensate for changes. The same is true with our EEC though the technology of our EEC is not as modern as a new Focus.
 
You cannot tune for a vac leak with a, "calibrated" MAF. No manufacturer would take that on since the volume of air allowed to enter the motor unmetered will vary greatly from motor to motor.

You could do it by changing fuel mapping through a dyno tune or programmer fed with information from a wideband o2 meter but hardware wise? Not so much.



Incorrect. The EEC is tuned to operate correctly with build of the engine. What's more, our cars are not tuned for that same circumstance. If you change the inlet characteristics of the Focus then you have to tune to compensate for changes. The same is true with our EEC though the technology of our EEC is not as modern as a new Focus.
It's not incorrect . I have a friend that is engineer at Ford , in engine calibration department , and was him that gave me this hint . He help me modeling my MAF curve (using tweecer/BE , widebands , EGT and gas analyzer devices) in a engineering college dynamometer class (where he was teaching). My car run on pure ethanol or gasoline (here gas has 25% ethanol) with a open blow-by like a factory car (idling 700 RPM with Crane 2031) . He told me that the basic calibrations systems on Ford is very similar what we have with ours strategies (CBAZA). No problem to calibrate to an vacuum leak because is a programmed leak. It's not a leak because is a open system .
 
It's not incorrect . I have a friend that is engineer at Ford , in engine calibration department , and was him that gave me this hint . He help me modeling my MAF curve (using tweecer/BE , widebands , EGT and gas analyzer devices) in a engineering college dynamometer class (where he was teaching). My car run on pure ethanol or gasoline (here gas has 25% ethanol) with a open blow-by like a factory car (idling 700 RPM with Crane 2031) . He told me that the basic calibrations systems on Ford is very similar what we have with ours strategies (CBAZA). No problem to calibrate to an vacuum leak because is a programmed leak. It's not a leak because is a open system .

You just proved my point. The fuel table are modified at the EEC, not the MAF.
 
If you run the catch can from the PCV on one side to the intake on the other side then yes, it will work just fine for what it is. The can will catch whatever is forced into it from the PCV port (to a point).

If you're running breathers on the valve covers with that setup, then your intake will pull air from those breathers into the intake when at idle or cruising at part throttle. That means you're pulling unmetered air into the intake. It's the same has having a vac leak. The cure is to use breathers with integrated check valves. Air will be allowed to exit (under boost) but not enter.

Well my plan was to run the PCV valve and valve cover in one side of the breather catch can and out the other side to the intake. Now that will be a open system right? If i used a closed catch can it would still be a closed system right? This is a bit confusing but still understanding what ya guys are talking bout. My plan was to run the set up like i just said with the breathered catch can. I didn't really want to put i breather on the valve cover.
 
Anytime you have a place in the induction system for the motor to pull ambient air that is NOT measured by the mass air flow sensor, you have an open system.

If you were to put a check valve on the catch can so that air can exit the can and not enter, then you would still have a closed system. The reason is that, air exiting through the can would be blow-by air having already been measured prior to combustion.

If the induction system is able to pull air into the intake through the catch can, then it can cause an air/fuel ratio problem depending of the amount of air that is allowed to enter.

I think what advent is trying to say above, is that this additional air can be tuned for. On that, he is correct. You can tune your fuel tables and curves to compensate for the additional unmetered air. The EEC will do this through adaptive controls but only to a point. Adaptive strategies ahve a pretty narrow ability and are intended to make minor changes and allow for small differences in engine and environment. It's not within their ability to adapt for major leaks.