Dear Freakintiger...

[Cougar]

Cougar,

Dinosaurs are mentioned extensively in the Bible. Does anyone that's not a believer ever read anymore? You can't just ask one guy out there about what he thinks is truth and then be done with it - who is he to answer you? What if he's stupid?

I pulled this from the Passion thread from a couple months back, http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=428569&page=3&pp=25&highlight=passion "Dinosaurs, "Behemoth" and "Leviathon" are discussed in great length in Job 40 and 41 and other dinosaurs mentioned in many other verses. In the Bible, Man lived at the same time. In museums, we have footprints of humans and Dinosaurs frozen in the same fossils.
Interesting note, no missing link has ever been found showing humans from lower forms during evolution although that would be the chief find many scientist have spent a career searching for. Further a study I read mentioned that we should be literally tripping over them at a rate of 4 thousand to 1 to each dinosaur skeleton found. This is because to evolutionist - man came many, many millions of years after the dinosaurs, very few dinosaurs bones have been able to survive the milleniums of their theory of time, and the fresher missing links should be very "recent" in comparison. Missing links should be an easier find as they populated more area of the earth than any of the different types of dinosaurs. Yet none have been found. Who's to say many of the primitive tools and paintings found in caves weren't done by kids out playing?"

Anyway, if you really want to know the correct information - it is there. That's fair enough. If you want to consider a topic let us Christian guys know and we'll tell you where it's found.

That was actually a Bill hicks quote.
"When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
I realize there is the "missing link", however, the atmosphere to produce fossils is very specific, and a lot of places in the world do not produce fossils.

I believe carbon dating can provide the answers for the cave men drawings.

Of course, teaching evolution is illegal in good ole' Kansas.

"When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."

 

[140cilx]

Cougar, you totally sidestepped. You asked your question, I provided you an answer, you changed topics without acknowledging my answer.

Is carbon dating accurate? If the earth is billions of years old do you think the "atmosphere" for making fossils might move across the earth every million years or so and fossilize every generation of evolution? You know, as in examples where there is a desert in a location now, but it used to be an agrigultural cornucopia.

Consider the idea of evolution as hilarious and shot through with holes. Evolutionist dead set on it being a world belief use carbon dating as the great answer. When in doubt, add age. With billions of years you can make every theory under the umbrella of evolution work, regardless of how contradictory their discoveries might be with each other, and the possibility of all new discoveries still fit nicely. An evolutionist just say's, "Yes, his new evidence does suggest a problem with current established thought, but we are working on some interesting aspects ..." It is the ultimate all encompassing "toss in your theory with ours but deny God" melting pot.

Creation is pretty hardcore and unmovable, unflinching and can't be dispelled by evolution. The Bible taught it first, even before science was a word.

 

[bhuff30]

Now I am normally not one to jump in on a highly debatable political or religious topic, but I am going to address this one.
I am a Christian, I go to church, and I believe in the existence of God, and that his son Jesus came to earth to forgive our sins... but I do not take the bible literally. The bible was written after the fact, and translated and interpreted several times before ending up on my table. For these reasons, I don't believe you can take every phrase literally. However, I do believe that the general message is still very much there.
What does this mean? Well, for one, it means that I can accept that evolution occurred, and is still occurring. To me, God is so great that he made this world dynamic and ever changing and that his hand may have be a part of these changes. He set the seeds for life to form on this earth, and set it into motion. Maybe he changed things as he saw fit... (I don't like those fins, so lets start making them into hands and feet). Maybe he is responsible for the missing links... I don't know, but what I do know is that I can not reject our scienfic knowledge just to take a literal meaning from the bible.
I am not here to cram my message down any ones neck, or trying to get anyone else to believe me. I just want to present a different view which some people may be more comfortable. I have seen miracles, and experienced Gods presence, but that does not mean that I should take the bible as exclusively true by taking a literal translation.

 

[140cilx]

I'm glad to hear where you stand Bhuff. I had wondered. However the problem with not taking the Bible literal is self explanatory. If you cut out chunks you decide may not be accurate, well then the whole entire Bible is open to interpretation and the entire Bible could be inaccurate. Your view leaves you with nothing to stand upon. However, God in His coolness has given us tons of evidences on the accuracy of His word to this day. For instance the King James Version (most popular) is 99.7% accurate to the original text's that have been discovered. Thank God the jewish people were so careful with them. The only inaccuracies found have been words for which we have no comparitive word. Your concern had real merit prior to the findings of examples like the Dead Sea Scrolls, but findings such as those laid your concern to rest. God has miraculously kept His word accurate - despite Satan, mankind, and generations of disbelievers. I know a man that did his doctorate on the accuracy of the Bible through the ages and it's fascinating. Every letter, comma, period, etc. all numbered, graphed and accounted as new copies were made of older copies. So when God said He created, I believe Him over anyone else that He did indeed create.
Remember there is a difference between evolution and hybrids. Hybrids are awesome and fascinating but add no merit or proof at all to an organism evolving.

 

[Cougar]

Cougar, you totally sidestepped. You asked your question, I provided you an answer, you changed topics without acknowledging my answer.

Is carbon dating accurate? If the earth is billions of years old do you think the "atmosphere" for making fossils might move across the earth every million years or so and fossilize every generation of evolution? You know, as in examples where there is a desert in a location now, but it used to be an agrigultural cornucopia.

Modern carbon-14 dating is extremely accurate, and can easily be within 1% margin of error. There are also many other radioactive isotopes that can be used to date and check the accuracy. The conditions required for fossilization are vastly more complicated, however:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s877478.htm

Consider the idea of evolution as hilarious and shot through with holes. Evolutionist dead set on it being a world belief use carbon dating as the great answer. When in doubt, add age. With billions of years you can make every theory under the umbrella of evolution work, regardless of how contradictory their discoveries might be with each other, and the possibility of all new discoveries still fit nicely. An evolutionist just say's, "Yes, his new evidence does suggest a problem with current established thought, but we are working on some interesting aspects ..." It is the ultimate all encompassing "toss in your theory with ours but deny God" melting pot.

Creation is pretty hardcore and unmovable, unflinching and can't be dispelled by evolution. The Bible taught it first, even before science was a word.

Biology is an incredibly sophisticated subject. Discoveries seem contradictory because we don't know the whole story. Think detectives have an easy time investigating a case and never encounter seemingly contradictory evidence? Well we're talking millions and millions of years of past we don't really know anything about despite our growing knowledge.

Let me remind you that creation can't be dispelled because there's no evidence EITHER WAY. The only way to disprove creationism is to prove evolution, and we're working on that.

If you choose not to believe evolution because it's 'too complicated', then that's your choice, but to me it seems like an easy-out.

Also, FYI, i was raised catholic and saw many things that didn't seem quite right to me. My standing is Agnostic, i don't know if there is a god, and i don't know if there isn't. It does seem likely that the fabric of the cosmos was created by a higher being though, i will say that. Also, i believe in the Oscillating universe theory.

 

[kiddiccarus]

Science vs Scriptue

Glad im not in the arguement, I love/hate everyone. Oh yeah I am leaving for the track too. I am gonna catch me a Pokemon (Matt on a run)

 

[bhuff30]

We have all spent our entire lives forming our opinions by processing the information available to us and environment around us. A brief discussion is not likely to change any of these opinions which we have concreted into our beliefs. Having said that, I am interested to read everyone’s opinion, but I do not enjoy it when one person believes their opinion is more correct or truthful and another’s. Unfortunately, more often than not, everyone tends to believe that their opinion is more correct than everyone else (or they wouldn't believe it ), and they try to convince everyone else that it is correct.
Having said that, you will never convince anyone that the bible is the absolute truth if they believe it to be a group of stories, nor can you convince someone that evolution is correct if they believe that the entire theory is rittled with holes and discrepancies.
Everyone here keeps proving themselves right with their evidence, but unfortunately, that evidence means nothing to the opposing side because it was already proven as incorrect, or poorly sourced.

 

[140cilx]

Cougar, at least you think and consider and give a rip.
I like the articles of findings, but I alway's giggle over the way the news turns out it was an extinct this or that, or a diseased family, etc, and somehow that doesn't make followup headlines but I still enjoy reading them.
Read up on Carbon dating, it's not accurate, to many problems with it, even if scientists account for the problems in their guesswork. Even those in the pro Carbon dating camp will list the problems and limitations. They consider it the best dating tool available for now.
Consider Satan (if he were to exist - as the Bible say's) wants you where you are, disbelief, indecision, apathy. There is truth, and then there are untruths of other religions or viewpoints of thought that Satan and men have authored. Any viewpoint that rejects God as our creator and Jesus as our saviour according to God's Word is rejection of God. Satan wants a person to consider then, "Why does God FORCE us to do things with just one way?" and wants us to let this theme perpetuate into indecision or hate. God doesn't force though. He gave us the simplest possible free gift. Came, died for us, gave us His word, which as written text is still the best medium ever. Pulled up anything that would weigh the odds in His favor such as forcing Himself on us, etc., and nothing He's ever said to us (via the authors of the Bible) has been shown to be fraudulent or a lie. He already promises He will reveal Himself to each man over and over until they reject Him completely and fully. He promised that. The Bible say's even the heavens declare the glory of God, and even the flower, have you considered it, how if He will clothe it in beauty just for our pleasure He'll care for us? Evolutionary Science will change, like you said, it will continue searching for pieces to make the theory work - hopefully into something solid for it's authors to pass on to those looking for answers. Bottom line though is, is it part of the deception of Satan to keep people from God? Having weighed the evidence of evolution and the evidence of creation? The proven validity of God's Word and the evidence it offers and the pathway it chooses and says is of God makes it impossible for me to do anything but laugh at men that continue to add their muck to the brick wall of evolution. Creation as God authored it is much more believable and the evidence more abundant.
It comes down to, as it does every time, is the Bible true and the word of God?

 

[140cilx]

We have all spent our entire lives forming our opinions by processing the information available to us and environment around us. A brief discussion is not likely to change any of these opinions which we have concreted into our beliefs. Having said that, I am interested to read everyone’s opinion, but I do not enjoy it when one person believes their opinion is more correct or truthful and another’s. Unfortunately, more often than not, everyone tends to believe that their opinion is more correct than everyone else (or they wouldn't believe it ), and they try to convince everyone else that it is correct.
Having said that, you will never convince anyone that the bible is the absolute truth if they believe it to be a group of stories, nor can you convince someone that evolution is correct if they believe that the entire theory is rittled with holes and discrepancies.
Everyone here keeps proving themselves right with their evidence, but unfortunately, that evidence means nothing to the opposing side because it was already proven as incorrect, or poorly sourced.

You are right about this, everyone thinks they are right, just like me. Nothing can be done about that and I know my reply versus theres means jack. I'm not trying to get Cougar specifically to change his views for my sake exactly. God tells us to be a light to the world, and to go out and spread the good news and I have to do that even when I've covered this topic 10 jillion times and don't feel like it. Thing is, some do stop and consider and read God's Word and make a decision. If I don't say anything, then someone may miss the news. God in his cool wisdom said spread the word. Sitting on my hands won't get it done.

 

[bhuff30]

You are right about this, everyone thinks they are right, just like me. Nothing can be done about that and I know my reply versus theres means jack. I'm not trying to get Cougar specifically to change his views for my sake exactly. God tells us to be a light to the world, and to go out and spread the good news and I have to do that even when I've covered this topic 10 jillion times and don't feel like it. Thing is, some do stop and consider and read God's Word and make a decision. If I don't say anything, then someone may miss the news. God in his cool wisdom said spread the word. Sitting on my hands won't get it done.

To me, there are more effective ways to be a light in the world than trying to convince them that evolution is not true. In my opinion, this is a waste of your time, and I beleive that you step on more toes and make people less receptive to christianity.

 

[140cilx]

To me, there are more effective ways to be a light in the world than trying to convince them that evolution is not true. In my opinion, this is a waste of your time, and I beleive that you step on more toes and make people less receptive to christianity.

Brian I did not start the thread. I did not start the topic of Dinosaurs and the Bible. I replied to Cougar that Dinosaurs are discussed in the Bible. I cannot agree with him and explained why. Now you are changing the topic and you and I might disagree with each other just like Cougar and I do, and be at the same impasse so don't worry about it.

I'll do my best, you do yours. And we'll all be good to each other in the meantime.

 

[140's Bud]

Well I was a Sniper

I could probably sit and talk to you for hours - and would most definitely enjoy learning some stuff from you!!! :worship:

My take on all this broohaha...
The version of the Bible that we have now (King James Version - yes, his, a common man's interpretation...) is what God has for some reason in His infinite wisdom has allowed us to have and has made it the most prominent interpretation of the Bible that man has today. Why would an all-knowing (omniscient) God allow man to base his beliefs on something full of half-truths?

I see it like this - regardless of all the different interpretations, losses in translation, etc. God supplied us with the KJV which is basically accepted by everyone as the "standard Bible." He apparently wanted it this way - or he would have done it different.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Just like it is - all or nothing. Period. If God didn't want it that way - He wouldn't have allowed those verses to be translated like that. He is all knowing - and perfect - so why would He make a mistake in the boook that He uses to teach us everything we know about Him?

 

[Cougar]

Cougar, at least you think and consider and give a rip.
I like the articles of findings, but I alway's giggle over the way the news turns out it was an extinct this or that, or a diseased family, etc, and somehow that doesn't make followup headlines but I still enjoy reading them.
Read up on Carbon dating, it's not accurate, to many problems with it, even if scientists account for the problems in their guesswork. Even those in the pro Carbon dating camp will list the problems and limitations. They consider it the best dating tool available for now.
Consider Satan (if he were to exist - as the Bible say's) wants you where you are, disbelief, indecision, apathy. There is truth, and then there are untruths of other religions or viewpoints of thought that Satan and men have authored. Any viewpoint that rejects God as our creator and Jesus as our saviour according to God's Word is rejection of God. Satan wants a person to consider then, "Why does God FORCE us to do things with just one way?" and wants us to let this theme perpetuate into indecision or hate. God doesn't force though. He gave us the simplest possible free gift. Came, died for us, gave us His word, which as written text is still the best medium ever. Pulled up anything that would weigh the odds in His favor such as forcing Himself on us, etc., and nothing He's ever said to us (via the authors of the Bible) has been shown to be fraudulent or a lie. He already promises He will reveal Himself to each man over and over until they reject Him completely and fully. He promised that. The Bible say's even the heavens declare the glory of God, and even the flower, have you considered it, how if He will clothe it in beauty just for our pleasure He'll care for us? Evolutionary Science will change, like you said, it will continue searching for pieces to make the theory work - hopefully into something solid for it's authors to pass on to those looking for answers. Bottom line though is, is it part of the deception of Satan to keep people from God? Having weighed the evidence of evolution and the evidence of creation? The proven validity of God's Word and the evidence it offers and the pathway it chooses and says is of God makes it impossible for me to do anything but laugh at men that continue to add their muck to the brick wall of evolution. Creation as God authored it is much more believable and the evidence more abundant.
It comes down to, as it does every time, is the Bible true and the word of God?

If radioactive decay dating such as carbon-14 were innacurate, then i don't know why all the nuclear reactors in the world are still running. They require an extreme amount of precision to be safe and efficient, and radioactive decay is one of those things accounted for.

If you believe all of this is just Satan's influence, then i can't stop you, but i can assure you at least the above is fact.

About the dinosaurs. I just posted that quote because i thought some people might find it entertaining in the context of this thread. Anyway, the last "real" dinosaurs died out about 65 million years ago. How far does the Old testament go back, and could you cite exactly where this was said? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[140cilx]

If radioactive decay dating such as carbon-14 were innacurate, then i don't know why all the nuclear reactors in the world are still running. They require an extreme amount of precision to be safe and efficient, and radioactive decay is one of those things accounted for.

If you believe all of this is just Satan's influence, then i can't stop you, but i can assure you at least the above is fact.

About the dinosaurs. I just posted that quote because i thought some people might find it entertaining in the context of this thread. Anyway, the last "real" dinosaurs died out about 65 million years ago. How far does the Old testament go back, and could you cite exactly where this was said? I'm genuinely curious.

I already mentioned you can look up the carbon dating info yourself and find all kinds of problems noted by parties both pro/con carbon dating. Neither of us are qualified to argue it together, at least I'm not. Nuclear reactors and radioactive decay are a fact - but not what we are talking about.

About the dinosaurs I just responded to your post because I thought some people might find it entertaining in the context of this thread.

Since Darwin, men (that do not believe God's Word) have now set the age of dinosaurs at ending (you said) 65 million years ago. This figure will probably change before we are dead, which means they were wrong prior each time they changed it. If they are wrong on some points here and there on this and that, where do you find it safe to believe them? Evolutionary Science is not sacred but ever changing. Truth is truth.

Halley's Bible Handbook, very authoritive and the Dake Commentary (likewise) both carefully place the age of the oldest book of the Bible (Job) at 6,000 years ago, but about 600 years after the flood. But there are a lot of good sources, scientist and men of God that concur on that date. Thus according to God's Word, dinosaurs were stomping around about 6,000 years ago and later. But even if you reviewed everything Halley and Dake used to qualify this date, and don't want to believe 65 million years - the number is still way below what evolution will tell you. Very contrary to the Bible. I don't see God being incorrect. He's to cool.

 

[freakintiger]

Well now, a lot has occurred while I was at work today.

My only concern was letting ALL members of the forum know that Jesus loves them and does not condemn them(John 3:17).

As far as the rest of it is concerned: I am trying to get a book together on it. I believe that God wants us to know the sciences and mathematics;the Jewish people are evidence of this.

Suffice it to say: Einstien's(who was Jewish and one of God's chosen people) theories of General and Special Relativity. Time passes relative to the observer. Man has only been around to observe the "Solar Clock" for a relatively short time. TIME is passing at different rates for different observors, it could be argued that time is not passing at all in deep space since no one is there to observe it. Remember where God is, is the "Infinite(Perfect) State" where there is no passage of time.

Thats much more than I intended to say.

A special message to my Christian brothers:

Let's remember to get along. We all can agree on the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Great Commission.

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
-the words of Jesus, John 13: 34+35

Everything else is secondary, remember the martyrs.
Your brother,
Mike

 

[Cougar]

Suffice it to say: Einstien's(who was Jewish and one of God's chosen people) theories of General and Special Relativity. Time passes relative to the observer. Man has only been around to observe the "Solar Clock" for a relatively short time. TIME is passing at different rates for different observors, it could be argued that time is not passing at all in deep space since no one is there to observe it. Remember where God is, is the "Infinite(Perfect) State" where there is no passage of time.

Interesting thought that just popped in my head when i read this. It has been observed that in deep space, objects are slowing down. I wonder if they accounted for time dialation? It could be that they're approaching the speed of light and just appearing slower?

Light is really weird since it has wave properties and particle properties. I think that holds the answer to a lot of questions.

What's my point? I have none, i just felt like typing this out

 

[Bearded Forever]

What the hell is going on?

 

[kiddiccarus]

Crovax please place some balance to this thread.

 

[140cilx]

Folks, I enjoyed the posting and replies with Cougar. Don't sit mute when we disagree on some point during a comfortable exchange. If it heated, I'd drop it to keep things good. Cougar and I were amiable and polite, no ill will expressed. The way it should be.

I can sit at a car show or the strip, autox or wrench with any of you guys, regardless of where we stand on our beliefs - and have a great time and some laughs.
We should discuss the why's when we disagree, it's interesting, and at the very least we all know how boring the forums can get otherwise.

 

[Cougar]

Folks, I enjoyed the posting and replies with Cougar. Don't sit mute when we disagree on some point during a comfortable exchange. If it heated, I'd drop it to keep things good. Cougar and I were amiable and polite, no ill will expressed. The way it should be.

I can sit at a car show or the strip, autox or wrench with any of you guys, regardless of where we stand on our beliefs - and have a great time and some laughs.
We should discuss the why's when we disagree, it's interesting, and at the very least we all know how boring the forums can get otherwise.