Do you need to prime the lifters before starting the engine...after H/C/I swap?
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Michael Yount
Mustang Master
It's always a good idea to prime the system after a head/cam/intake swap. You don't want the new cam to spend anymore time than it has to with the engine coming up to pressure. Autozone will loan you the tool to prime it with for a small refundable deposit. Stick it onto the oil pump shaft through the dizzy hole, put a drill on it (I wouldn't try a cordless - not enough umph) and slowly turn counterclockwise until you get a steady stream of oil out of every pushrod running down the top of every rocker. If you like you can turn the ignition switch on and see what oil pressure you have. Then stick the dizzy, and you're ready to start it.
Sorry guys...(thanks for the tips)...I wasn't very clear...I meant "priming" just the lifters...not the engine before startup...I thought you could install the lifters dry (with assembly lube all on it)...but no oil inside...and adjust the rockers on the "dry" lifters...that wouldn't cause problems would it...adjusting the valves with dry lifters...? I do know to prime the engine before startup...Thanks
This is the thread that peaked my interest...
http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=479451
David
This is the thread that peaked my interest...
http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=479451
David
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
In my opinion, soaking the lifters accomplishes nothing at all other than making them very slippery. 
Lube them up with assembly lube as you would any other part of the rotating assembly. Priming the system is what fills them up/pressurizes them with oil just as if the engine were running. You can adjust the rockers with the lifters dry - just be sure that you don't depress the plunger spring when you're finding the zero lash point. I agree with autoxr1 -- after you've run the motor - checked gauges for proper readings, stopped any leaks, made sure there are no unusual noises, you may have to go back and re-install the rockers with things hot. The dimensions all change due to thermal expansion, and I've found consistently on mine that they run quieter when I go through the installation procedure with the engine warm. The difference isn't because of oil in the lifter - it's because of the dimensions change with temp. It's wise to retorque the lower after a heat cycle or two anyway, so the upper has to come off anyhow. Pull the upper and the covers, re-install the rockers with things hot, and after that retorque the lower. Put it back together and you should be good to go.
Lube them up with assembly lube as you would any other part of the rotating assembly. Priming the system is what fills them up/pressurizes them with oil just as if the engine were running. You can adjust the rockers with the lifters dry - just be sure that you don't depress the plunger spring when you're finding the zero lash point. I agree with autoxr1 -- after you've run the motor - checked gauges for proper readings, stopped any leaks, made sure there are no unusual noises, you may have to go back and re-install the rockers with things hot. The dimensions all change due to thermal expansion, and I've found consistently on mine that they run quieter when I go through the installation procedure with the engine warm. The difference isn't because of oil in the lifter - it's because of the dimensions change with temp. It's wise to retorque the lower after a heat cycle or two anyway, so the upper has to come off anyhow. Pull the upper and the covers, re-install the rockers with things hot, and after that retorque the lower. Put it back together and you should be good to go.Alright...Thanks Michael for putting my paranoia's to rest...
All pertaining to H/C/I swap coming in a week...
Three questions:
1. Any tips on installing timing chain cover and gaskets ( the U shaped one and the circle one)...?...anything need trimming...what color gasketmaker (RTV)...blue or black?
2. Also on the adjusting the valves...here is part of the FTI instructions -
"Remove the valve covers, and pick a cylinder you are going to set the pre-load on. Only do one cylinder at a time.
Rotate the engine in its normal direction of rotation (clockwise) and watch the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder."
Okay on to the question...how can you watch an exhaust valve open and close if you don't have the rockers adjusted...does it mean attach all the rockers, pushrods, lifters, and just get them bolted down and then watch it open...then begin the adjusting process...?...hope that made sense...this isn't a question on how to adjust the valves...just how can you watch the valves open if the instructions say nothing about bolting up the rockers and all...dumb question...I know...
3. Okay I have both the black and blue RTV gasketmaker....which ones are recommended where during a H/C/I swap...? For example...black is for this...blue is for this...etc...
Thanks,
David
All pertaining to H/C/I swap coming in a week...
Three questions:
1. Any tips on installing timing chain cover and gaskets ( the U shaped one and the circle one)...?...anything need trimming...what color gasketmaker (RTV)...blue or black?
2. Also on the adjusting the valves...here is part of the FTI instructions -
"Remove the valve covers, and pick a cylinder you are going to set the pre-load on. Only do one cylinder at a time.
Rotate the engine in its normal direction of rotation (clockwise) and watch the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder."
Okay on to the question...how can you watch an exhaust valve open and close if you don't have the rockers adjusted...does it mean attach all the rockers, pushrods, lifters, and just get them bolted down and then watch it open...then begin the adjusting process...?...hope that made sense...this isn't a question on how to adjust the valves...just how can you watch the valves open if the instructions say nothing about bolting up the rockers and all...dumb question...I know...
3. Okay I have both the black and blue RTV gasketmaker....which ones are recommended where during a H/C/I swap...? For example...black is for this...blue is for this...etc...
Thanks,
David
bmo37
Founding Member
Michael Yount said:In my opinion, soaking the lifters accomplishes nothing at all other than making them very slippery.
thats what I do, assembly lube around the lifter bore, around the lifter itself and the roller tip and pushrod notch.
bmo37
Founding Member
5spd GT said:
hmm when doing the timing chain cover make sure you replace the front seal on it, it can be hammered out with the right size pipe. Part 2 your going to turn the crank over until the cylinder you wan to work comes up and the valves are closed, thats the base circle. Now how you adjust the rockers depends on if you have stud mounts or pedestal mounts. either sims or adfjusting nut on the stud. can't remeber the torque think its 15ftlbs plus quater of a turn, if more is needed than you either shim or adjust it more.
bmo37 said:
You mean the right size pipe to hammer it IN...? I dont' have pipes around my house...anyother suggestions...would rubber mallet work?
Part #2...what I mean is in the instructions it doesn't say to install the rockers, lifters etc...(which open and close the valves) to see if the valve is actually opening or closing...how can I do it without it all "working together"...do you mean that if the cam is at it's base (lowest continious part of the cam lobes)...that it means that the valves would be closed if it was all "working together"...sorry if that is confusing...
Thanks,
David
bmo37
Founding Member
5spd GT said:
yeah right size pipe, I used a piece of 3" pipe i think and a block of wood under the tining cover while I knocked the seal out with a hammer. As far as the cam goes with the cam, lifters, pusrods and rockers on, you bring the cam to the base circle on the cam valve closed and torque to right sequence.
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
If you're careful, a mallet can be used to put the seal in, in place of the proper diameter drift.
To install the rockers - start with #1 pair. Be sure all spark plugs are removed as it makes the engine easier to turn over. Rotate the engine clockwise with socket on the crank bolt and watch the pushrods. When the exhaust rod comes up, and begins to drop back down (valve would be closing if the rocker were on), the intake pushrod will begin to come up. Keep rotating until the intake rod comes back down - once it's all the way down (intake valve would be closed) -- then both lifters are on the base circle of the cam. Place a rocker, hand tighten it until there is zero lash (no gap on the valve tip end or the pushrod end). At that point - zero lash - place your torque wrench on the bolt and tighten to 18-20 ft-lbs. while counting the number of turns of the bolt. It should hit the torque in between 1/4 turn and 1 turn of the bolt AFTER zero lash is reached. If it takes more than 1 turn, shim the rocker up with .030" shims - one .030" shim reduces the number of turns by about 1/4. I usually try to get mine all to hit the torque between 1/2 and 3/4 turns. On my car that resulted in 11 rockers with no shims (they hit between 1/2 and 3/4 turns on their own), 5 rockers had a .030" shim, and 1 rocker had a .060" shim. If you have trouble reaching zero lash by hand, can't reach it at all (hit the torque and there's still a gap) or hit the torque in less than a 1/4 turn, that pushrod is too short. You can replace it with a shorter one, or remove a bit of material (carefully!) from the bottom of the fulcrum. If you follow the firing order of the engine, the next set of valves in the order will be just about ready to close the intake pushrod/valve (both lifters will be on the base circle of the cam) with just a little rotation from the previous pair.
The above instructions are for pedestal mount. Stud mount is similar except, once on the base circle, you tighten to zero lash, and then an additional 1/2 or 3/4 turn - see your rocker instructions. Once there, set the allen lock screws and move on to the next pair.
For paper gaskets (water pump, front cover, t'stat) I only use gasket dressing - Permatex Hylomar. I don't use RTV for paper gaskets - that's not what it's designed for. For rubber gaskets (the semicircular front cover rubber seal, metal/rubber valve cover gaskets, etc.) I just use a little white grease or Armor All to be sure the rubber slides and doesn't bind. I only use RTV on metal to metal machined surfaces (like the tail shaft housing to the main housing on a tranny for example) or on complex 3-plane seals - like the corners where the front cover, the oil pan and the block all come together. I put a dab in a corner like that. I also use rtv if I'm forced to use a cork gasket (there are none in my engine) - I lightly coat the entire cork gasket - inside, out, bottom, top - let it set up for few minutes and then install it. I only use Permatex high temp Copper RTV.
Hope that helps - good luck with it. Take your time, clean everything, you'll be fine. You're almost certain to get some debris into the water jackets and oil pan if the engine's in the car. Everytime you can, place rags or something into oil/water passages to keep debris from entering while you're cleaning. The lifter valley as well will get lots of stuff into it - lay rags in there before you start cleaning - then pick the rags up and the debris comes with them. Stuff paper towels in the ports and water passages to keep stuff out of them. Shop vac is invaluable for sucking debris out of the area after you've cleaned surfaces for new gaskets. If you're pulling headers off - be sure to use a straight edge to check the flatness/trueness of the flange surface. They tend to warp a bit with heat - it only costs a small amount to have a machine shop re-true the header flanges before you reinstall - it'll save you chasing a frustrating exhaust leak if they're not true. And be sure you disconnect the head pipes before you try to bolt them back on.
One more tip - you'll do yourself a big favor if you take your upper and lower manifold bolts to the hardware store with you and buy two bolts that match the short upper bolts; 4 bolts that match the lower bolts. Cut the heads off and use them as temporary locating dowels during assembly. On the lower, put them in the 4 corners, on the upper in the front and rear passenger side holes. They'll hold your gaskets in place, and allow you to place the manifold perfectly on the first try. Start a few of the other bolts, then simply remove them and replace them with the stock bolts. Works like a champ on valve covers and headers too - especially if you're working alone. Lastly - be sure to the get the t'stat gasket that has a peel off adhesive on one side - it will hold the t'stat in place during assembly (be sure to completely disconnect both the upper rad. hose and the bypass hose BEFORE you attempt to screw the t'stat housing back in. All those hoses/clamps should be replaced if they're not new.
To install the rockers - start with #1 pair. Be sure all spark plugs are removed as it makes the engine easier to turn over. Rotate the engine clockwise with socket on the crank bolt and watch the pushrods. When the exhaust rod comes up, and begins to drop back down (valve would be closing if the rocker were on), the intake pushrod will begin to come up. Keep rotating until the intake rod comes back down - once it's all the way down (intake valve would be closed) -- then both lifters are on the base circle of the cam. Place a rocker, hand tighten it until there is zero lash (no gap on the valve tip end or the pushrod end). At that point - zero lash - place your torque wrench on the bolt and tighten to 18-20 ft-lbs. while counting the number of turns of the bolt. It should hit the torque in between 1/4 turn and 1 turn of the bolt AFTER zero lash is reached. If it takes more than 1 turn, shim the rocker up with .030" shims - one .030" shim reduces the number of turns by about 1/4. I usually try to get mine all to hit the torque between 1/2 and 3/4 turns. On my car that resulted in 11 rockers with no shims (they hit between 1/2 and 3/4 turns on their own), 5 rockers had a .030" shim, and 1 rocker had a .060" shim. If you have trouble reaching zero lash by hand, can't reach it at all (hit the torque and there's still a gap) or hit the torque in less than a 1/4 turn, that pushrod is too short. You can replace it with a shorter one, or remove a bit of material (carefully!) from the bottom of the fulcrum. If you follow the firing order of the engine, the next set of valves in the order will be just about ready to close the intake pushrod/valve (both lifters will be on the base circle of the cam) with just a little rotation from the previous pair.
The above instructions are for pedestal mount. Stud mount is similar except, once on the base circle, you tighten to zero lash, and then an additional 1/2 or 3/4 turn - see your rocker instructions. Once there, set the allen lock screws and move on to the next pair.
For paper gaskets (water pump, front cover, t'stat) I only use gasket dressing - Permatex Hylomar. I don't use RTV for paper gaskets - that's not what it's designed for. For rubber gaskets (the semicircular front cover rubber seal, metal/rubber valve cover gaskets, etc.) I just use a little white grease or Armor All to be sure the rubber slides and doesn't bind. I only use RTV on metal to metal machined surfaces (like the tail shaft housing to the main housing on a tranny for example) or on complex 3-plane seals - like the corners where the front cover, the oil pan and the block all come together. I put a dab in a corner like that. I also use rtv if I'm forced to use a cork gasket (there are none in my engine) - I lightly coat the entire cork gasket - inside, out, bottom, top - let it set up for few minutes and then install it. I only use Permatex high temp Copper RTV.
Hope that helps - good luck with it. Take your time, clean everything, you'll be fine. You're almost certain to get some debris into the water jackets and oil pan if the engine's in the car. Everytime you can, place rags or something into oil/water passages to keep debris from entering while you're cleaning. The lifter valley as well will get lots of stuff into it - lay rags in there before you start cleaning - then pick the rags up and the debris comes with them. Stuff paper towels in the ports and water passages to keep stuff out of them. Shop vac is invaluable for sucking debris out of the area after you've cleaned surfaces for new gaskets. If you're pulling headers off - be sure to use a straight edge to check the flatness/trueness of the flange surface. They tend to warp a bit with heat - it only costs a small amount to have a machine shop re-true the header flanges before you reinstall - it'll save you chasing a frustrating exhaust leak if they're not true. And be sure you disconnect the head pipes before you try to bolt them back on.
One more tip - you'll do yourself a big favor if you take your upper and lower manifold bolts to the hardware store with you and buy two bolts that match the short upper bolts; 4 bolts that match the lower bolts. Cut the heads off and use them as temporary locating dowels during assembly. On the lower, put them in the 4 corners, on the upper in the front and rear passenger side holes. They'll hold your gaskets in place, and allow you to place the manifold perfectly on the first try. Start a few of the other bolts, then simply remove them and replace them with the stock bolts. Works like a champ on valve covers and headers too - especially if you're working alone. Lastly - be sure to the get the t'stat gasket that has a peel off adhesive on one side - it will hold the t'stat in place during assembly (be sure to completely disconnect both the upper rad. hose and the bypass hose BEFORE you attempt to screw the t'stat housing back in. All those hoses/clamps should be replaced if they're not new.
Excellent tips guys...
So about the "getting started" of the adjustment of the stud rockers...I just install the lifters, pushrods, roller rockers...then turn the engine over with a socket wrench (15/16")...until I get to the base circle of the cam...and then back off the nut on the rocker...and then start the process...?
Also someone confirm this...and explain to me how I know what the base circle of the cam is...is that the low continous part of the cam lobes...and when I first install the pushrods, lifters, roller rockers I get them tight enough so the valvetrain moves to get to that base circle of the cam (exhaust valve will be closed on the heads)...
Is this correct...just need a confirmation...
Thanks
So about the "getting started" of the adjustment of the stud rockers...I just install the lifters, pushrods, roller rockers...then turn the engine over with a socket wrench (15/16")...until I get to the base circle of the cam...and then back off the nut on the rocker...and then start the process...?
Also someone confirm this...and explain to me how I know what the base circle of the cam is...is that the low continous part of the cam lobes...and when I first install the pushrods, lifters, roller rockers I get them tight enough so the valvetrain moves to get to that base circle of the cam (exhaust valve will be closed on the heads)...
Is this correct...just need a confirmation...
Thanks
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
From the post right above yours.....
"Rotate the engine clockwise with socket on the crank bolt and watch the pushrods. When the exhaust rod comes up, and begins to drop back down (valve would be closing if the rocker were on), the intake pushrod will begin to come up. Keep rotating until the intake rod comes back down - once it's all the way down (intake valve would be closed) -- then both lifters are on the base circle of the cam."
"Rotate the engine clockwise with socket on the crank bolt and watch the pushrods. When the exhaust rod comes up, and begins to drop back down (valve would be closing if the rocker were on), the intake pushrod will begin to come up. Keep rotating until the intake rod comes back down - once it's all the way down (intake valve would be closed) -- then both lifters are on the base circle of the cam."
Michael Yount said:
Read to quick...that stuff might come back to haunt me...so I adjust when both lifters are on the base circle of the cam?????
How do I know when the intake itself and exhaust valve itself (by themselves) are on base circle?
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
Read it again - the paragraph I copied tells describes how to tell when you're on the base circle. ????
Alright...it says "Stud mount is similar except, once on the base circle, you tighten to zero lash, and then an additional 1/2 or 3/4 turn"...so you don't need a torque wrench on those...just turn it the specified amount once at zero lash...
Do I install both rockers on when both the intake and exhaust valves would be at the base circle at the same time...and then I begin to spin the engine over to tighten them down at the correct time...
About the intake bolts helping it line up...I can just use my old intake bolts...because I got new ones...good tip
Do I install both rockers on when both the intake and exhaust valves would be at the base circle at the same time...and then I begin to spin the engine over to tighten them down at the correct time...
About the intake bolts helping it line up...I can just use my old intake bolts...because I got new ones...good tip
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
Not sure how to make it any clearer - you only install them when the lifter is on the base circle of the cam. You rotate to get the lifter on the base circle - then you install, then you rotate again to get the next pair on the base circle, then install, etc. My suggestion allows you to rotate the engine and stop it so you can install a pair at a time (actually - you can install 4 at a time - if you know which 4 are on the base circle in 90 degree intervals - but you don't want to get into that). If you want you can rotate the engine each time and install one at a time - but that's a lot of engine rotation for 16 rockers.
arbailey
Founding Member
