BlackVert
15 Year Member
Dyno disappointment!!
- Thread starter '94ChickStang
- Start date
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I certainly could not speak for Ed
and
It has been a long time since he cut my cam
I gotta wonder if the emphasis put on drivability made him go easy on
the specs
Grady
I'd say that is a bit fat for your combo
I would not think they would leave it like that
I'm guessing they burned a chip so they would optimize things as needed
anyway ... we will all know more later on
Grady
That is excellent rwtq for a 5.0 H/C/I ..maybe you didn't know that.
I made 339rwtq years ago on a stock 100k mile bottom end with out batting an eye in brutal july heat/humidity
Nothing special..
mo_dingo
Dirt-Old 20+Year Member
Yeah your a/f should be around 13 - 13.5 all the way through. The spark curve may not be correct either. Not a very good dyno tune IMHO.
Scott
Scott
Hmmm... I too would expect more since it appears VERY similar to my combo. Who put the parts on?
I made 304rwhp/331rwtq SAE BTW with my setup.
I made 304rwhp/331rwtq SAE BTW with my setup.
KC, I always thought your sig said 293rwhp?..and where is everyone getting 330rwtq on a 302? Am I going bonkers or is that seem high?
I left the car @ the shop b/c the thing was running like a box truck when I got there....I drove it half a block before I turned around. Apparently they didn't bother to actually test drive the car after the tune, it was slower than stock with all it's 275 horses. It was running SUPER rough like it had an exhaust leak or something and they originally tried to blame it on the cam lope. They kept me waiting there for 3 hours trying to get it right but it didn't happen today! But no worries b/c it's only an hour drive each way...that being said they have a good reputation and I hope they make things right
So....they say the O2 sensors are bad and it's throwing coolant temp sensor codes and other crap, but it has been acknowledged that something is wrong. They say it's running rich while NOT under WOT and it's making the car idle/run rough. The dyno graph you'll see looks good (to me), nice flat tq curve and the a/f is right @ 13: the whole way through...apparently the computer ignores the O2's and other sensors while under WOT making the graph look ok while the car is sh+t.
I'm hoping when all is sorted out and it's re-dyno'd I'll see some higher rwhp/tq numbers but I don't know .
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Black95GTS
Active Member
You need more RPM my man. They left about 1000 RPM on the table by only taking it out to 5500. I do that with my stock junk and trick flow manifold. Did you get the PS3 upgrade package that Ed C sells for those AFRs?
Adam
Adam
BlackVert
15 Year Member
max torque is almost always higher than max hp. and it is definately higher than hp until 5252 rpm.KC, I always thought your sig said 293rwhp?..and where is everyone getting 330rwtq on a 302? Am I going bonkers or is that seem high?
ONLY an hour? you must not have gotten home until like midnight ...
i'd be pissed if i drove an hour to get my car and came home 5 hours later empty handed
KC, I always thought your sig said 293rwhp?..and where is everyone getting 330rwtq on a 302? Am I going bonkers or is that seem high?
It always made 293-294rwhp on Kauffman's dyno. I continued to tune and tweak it at the track with my eec tuner and I then had it dyno'd at Cecil county dragway the day i ran 12.1 at 112.5mph and it made the 304rwhp/331rwtq.
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/617/2461/22565.jpg
'94ChickStang- Why on earth did they stop the dyno pull so early? The AF looks goods, although my car made more power down in the high 12:1 range than it did at 13:1.
Are you sure the cam was degreed in right and that the valvetrain geometry was setup correctly?
No I'm not sure these things were done correctly and I'm guessing it could be the reason it's not running well. They're not responding well to my feedback...probably b/c they don't think I know what I'm talking about due to the fact I'm not doing the work.
When they re-dyno I'll make sure they pull it up towards 6k
EXTREMELY frustrating
MattZ281LE
Founding Member
Who installed and degreed the cam. Is it operating at the range that Ed specified on the cam card. The cam could be over advanced. I have no experience with Ed's cams. But I had to advance my Jay Allen cam 2*.
That combo should be a solid 300/320 easy when straight and maybe more.
That combo should be a solid 300/320 easy when straight and maybe more.
Like self tuning, I find all this dyno stuff so interesting 
In no way do I claim to understand it all
and
Since I seem to always have Q's
When you folks do your pulls ... that tells me I got a long way to go
Some observations and Q's about the pull since you put up the chart
CF: UNCORRECTED Smoothing:
I don't remember seeing that on other pulls
Seen smoothing before ... IIRC, a lot of the time it has a value of 5
I do admit to not really understanding what all that smoothing is about
but have always thought of it being about taking out all the little jitters
one might see in the hp/tq/af ratio lines.
Look at the af ratio ... very little movement as it almost perfectly hugs
that 13 to 1 line. I can assure you, I don't see that flat of a line with my
equipment. I did once have an opportunity to work with a fellow on a
dynojet who took some time and showed me he could zoom in on the
fuel ratio and get more detailed results. Now this was a long time ago
but IIRC, when he did that, we got the more detailed display which
showed a more true display of the results as the variations could be
seen.
You sometimes see the word SAE or STANDARD used but not here.
Perhaps they are to be found somewhere on the sides where we
can't see it
3600 rpm before hitting 300 lbs of torque is not what I've seen be the
norm for a combo such as this. Even more so in this case because of
the longest runner choice of intake used.
The hp seems like it might be able to go a tad higher but they cut the
pull short
I'd ask them to make the pull in the range of less than 2k to 6K
You got the nice springs
so
You might even wanna go on up to 6200
but
It would depend upon if the curve starts to fall before 6K
Notice the shape of the curves ... not the values ... it looks not all
that much out of the norm IMHO.
13 to 1 is too lean from all I've seen
but ... then again
We are dealing with a mid pipe that has cats
This is important because if they used a sniffer in the tail pipe ..........
That is most likely gonna produce a false lean reading.
I'd wanna be taking a reading from a bung before the cats
anyway .............
Here I am second guessing what all happened without being there
but
From everything you said ... the car does not sound like it is or was
in a state of preparedness to obtain the best results possible.
I mean ... you said it was worse after their handy work than before
you let them hose around with it ... that ain't right for sure
It sounds to me like the Closed Loop issues throwing cel codes and
all that held you back with your efforts on the dyno.
Good Luck and I look forward to what develops here.
Grady
In no way do I claim to understand it all
and
Since I seem to always have Q's
When you folks do your pulls ... that tells me I got a long way to go
Some observations and Q's about the pull since you put up the chart
CF: UNCORRECTED Smoothing:
I don't remember seeing that on other pulls
Seen smoothing before ... IIRC, a lot of the time it has a value of 5
I do admit to not really understanding what all that smoothing is about
but have always thought of it being about taking out all the little jitters
one might see in the hp/tq/af ratio lines.
Look at the af ratio ... very little movement as it almost perfectly hugs
that 13 to 1 line. I can assure you, I don't see that flat of a line with my
equipment. I did once have an opportunity to work with a fellow on a
dynojet who took some time and showed me he could zoom in on the
fuel ratio and get more detailed results. Now this was a long time ago
but IIRC, when he did that, we got the more detailed display which
showed a more true display of the results as the variations could be
seen.
You sometimes see the word SAE or STANDARD used but not here.
Perhaps they are to be found somewhere on the sides where we
can't see it
3600 rpm before hitting 300 lbs of torque is not what I've seen be the
norm for a combo such as this. Even more so in this case because of
the longest runner choice of intake used.
The hp seems like it might be able to go a tad higher but they cut the
pull short
I'd ask them to make the pull in the range of less than 2k to 6K
You got the nice springs
so
You might even wanna go on up to 6200
but
It would depend upon if the curve starts to fall before 6K
Notice the shape of the curves ... not the values ... it looks not all
that much out of the norm IMHO.
13 to 1 is too lean from all I've seen
but ... then again
We are dealing with a mid pipe that has cats
This is important because if they used a sniffer in the tail pipe ..........
That is most likely gonna produce a false lean reading.
I'd wanna be taking a reading from a bung before the cats
anyway .............
Here I am second guessing what all happened without being there
but
From everything you said ... the car does not sound like it is or was
in a state of preparedness to obtain the best results possible.
I mean ... you said it was worse after their handy work than before
you let them hose around with it ... that ain't right for sure
It sounds to me like the Closed Loop issues throwing cel codes and
all that held you back with your efforts on the dyno.
Good Luck and I look forward to what develops here.
Grady
Shouldn't she be able to take the car to a dyno shop that just gets it done and gets it right? All this driving, money spent and no results...
reminds me of my first experience with a dyno...$1200 later..you all know my story on that one...
reminds me of my first experience with a dyno...$1200 later..you all know my story on that one...
This is what I was told....there's nothing on the sheet that you all can't see either. I will keep everyone in the loop moving forward
thanks for all the advice everyone!
MattZ281LE
Founding Member
In most mild NA combos the dyno should only optimize a combo.
When I did mine. I had NO tuning and pulled 302/327. As matter of fact the only tuning we did was 3 pulls and drop the fuel 2 psi. It pulled 306/330 with no chip.
I bet I could have pulled another 5-10 with a chip. My idle was good, made top power at 5500. Was going 13.1 @ 105, full weight street tires and stock 120k mile clutch.
There is always more than just bolting parts on. tolerances, degreeing the cam, Geometry, checking TDC, confirming the balancer is good and the timing marks line up, dizzy install and timing, vacuum leaks, sensors. Setting initial FP and so on.
My opinion is that I would take my car, go over everything myself. Dizzy, timing fuel etc, sensors.
No one will care or work on your car as well as you. To most shops its just another car and another customer. The old saying of if you want something done right do it yourself.
experience comes with a price, be it $$$ , mistakes or a combination of the 2.
Mod it, break it, fix it, learn from it and repeat.
Good luck, I Would like to see what its capable of.
When I did mine. I had NO tuning and pulled 302/327. As matter of fact the only tuning we did was 3 pulls and drop the fuel 2 psi. It pulled 306/330 with no chip.
I bet I could have pulled another 5-10 with a chip. My idle was good, made top power at 5500. Was going 13.1 @ 105, full weight street tires and stock 120k mile clutch.
There is always more than just bolting parts on. tolerances, degreeing the cam, Geometry, checking TDC, confirming the balancer is good and the timing marks line up, dizzy install and timing, vacuum leaks, sensors. Setting initial FP and so on.
My opinion is that I would take my car, go over everything myself. Dizzy, timing fuel etc, sensors.
No one will care or work on your car as well as you. To most shops its just another car and another customer. The old saying of if you want something done right do it yourself.
experience comes with a price, be it $$$ , mistakes or a combination of the 2.
Mod it, break it, fix it, learn from it and repeat.
Good luck, I Would like to see what its capable of.
