Engine Engine Swap - lots of upgrades, not running quite right

79pace

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Here is a picture of the engine before I pulled it and the distributor had never been out out of the engine. Only timed. This is where it was in the first picture that you guys thought was not correct and I re indexed it. Where do you think it should be pointing out of curiosity? I mean in reality it shouldnt matter. The only thing that matters is that the rotor is pointing to where #1 is at TDC. Here is also a ford Brochure from a 92. Looks pretty much where mine was before I moved it.
 

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General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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Even comparing the two pics I'm scratching my head. Something is not right, either the distributor is installed wrong or the firing order is wrong. This is just an observation, even compared the pics to my engine and yours is different.
just say'n.
 

79pace

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I have never really seen two that are in the exact same position. There are too many variables but the only one that matters is that the rotor points to 1 and the timing marks match up. Firing order is correct and the car runs without any misfires. I know what a engine with the wrong timing order sounds like. Been doing this for too many years and built too many engines. I can move the distributor and re time it if it makes people happier. Just a quick bounce around google and I can find them with the ignition module pointing all over the place. I could drop the distributor in several spots and still time it just fine. Trust me. The firing order is right and the timing light says its good. I will bring the timing back down on it probably when I get it back started and maybe it will look better for you? Not being a jerk but the computer and the car itself dont really care where the module is sitting, they only care where that rotor is when its time to fire.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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Well you are kinda being a jerk about it, no matter, and yes you are right about the pointing to #1 and the position of the 'module'.
 

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
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Not trying to be but I am also not brand new to working on cars. Visual orientation of the distributor has nothing to do with how its timed and I still cant tell why it looks off to you. Looking around the internet and watching videos all day people have them all over the place. I will get the vacuum leak resolved and see where were at.
 
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General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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I know you are not meaning to be a jerk about it.
And the symptoms you describe do point more at a vacuum leak than a timing issue.
It was just an observation. Keep us posted.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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Just for the record, I too have worked on sbf forever. I still get the timing thing f'd up, I set my distributor in four times once, the first three times it was 180* off. How I did that three times in a row I have yet to figure out.
 

79pace

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Been there. I checked, recheck and still had it one tooth out on the first start up. I turned it till it hit the intake to fire it so I moved it over one tooth to get it where it is and to get the timing on the gun to where I could take it through the entire range easily.
 
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08GT500

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Been there. I checked, recheck and still had it one tooth out on the first start up. I turned it till it hit the intake to fire it so I moved it over one tooth to get it where it is and to get the timing on the gun to where I could take it through the entire range easily.
Hi, Sorry to see this as being so elusive. You’re plugging away at it, all you can really do. Hopefully, codes may help.
Leaks between the intake base & block may also cause issues. intake-head vac.leaks are the most challenging. I’ve had the worst time if not retorquing the intake lowers on some motors, a few hours later. Upper removed, a borescope routed into the lower’s ports will catch a slipped gasket.
You've found a few vacuum leaks, has it improved engine vacuum, how it’s running since the last vacuum gauge reading (12’s) you’d last measured, idling?
The EGR should be connected to the EVR, zero vacuum at idle.(I’ve searched for days over this mixup) A connection to live vacuum can cause stumbling, poor idle & driving characteristics, etc.
EVR is located behind the passenger’s wheel well(connected by those small, hard lines that crack easily & 90’ sweeps that dry rot). Any chance the Pro-M MAF element became dirty, blast w/CRC?
There’s a firewall penetration with an AC related vacuum line which caused me issues, just an FYI. Best of luck!
John
 

79pace

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Well I got it fired up and idling however now I have a new issue. Saw some drips from the back of the motor, first thought was rear main and my heart sank, but turns out its just the back of the intake. No idea how I messed that up but somehow I did not get enough of a bead of rtv on it. I dont use the gasket pieces. They always end up falling in or just being junk anyway. I usually put a nice thick bead of RTV to seal the front and rear. Front looks good but the back somehow is leaking oil pretty good. SOOOOOOOOOO...... The intake is coming off. I guess I now have a chance to look over all the gaskets and make sure I did not have a leak in on the bottom side but man this thing is irritating me. Will be worth it in the end but little crap is going to be the death of me.
 
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79pace

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The longer it ran the more it was pouring out. I definitely have oil pressure. lol I guess I will take this opportunity to replace a few lifters. I have 3 or 4 that are getting spongy when the car sits. They pump up just fine and stay pumped up but I dont like the fact that I can push them in by hand when the motor is cold. I know many say its normal but its not normal to me. I have plenty of factory lifters. I will put the best few in to replace them.
 
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08GT500

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The longer it ran the more it was pouring out. I definitely have oil pressure. lol I guess I will take this opportunity to replace a few lifters. I have 3 or 4 that are getting spongy when the car sits. They pump up just fine and stay pumped up but I dont like the fact that I can push them in by hand when the motor is cold. I know many say its normal but its not normal to me. I have plenty of factory lifters. I will put the best few in to replace them.
Hi,
Well, it’s idling now- anything you do when it’s apart will only improve things further. Those freakin’ intake to valley gaskets are awful, torque the lower & they spit back out like a Canadian quarter dropped in a U.S. soda machine, lol.
A thought regarding the leak, you’d run it before with no leaks, pulled the valve covers to check preload, maybe it’s just a valve cover gasket leak?
I’d mentioned needing to torque the lower more than once, could check if desired
Check what torque the fasteners are at prior to removing it.
Lifters were all new w/Cam Install.. Apart, prime the pump for 15 seconds using a cordless drill & socket, stop. Rotate the motor via breaker bar/1” socket & see how long they handle the full valve lift’s spring load.
E-303 spring 120lbs on the seat, 310lbs @ full valve lift
Good luck!
John
 
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79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
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Yea It just has not run for long and that valley area on the back can old some oil then the bell housing as well. It ran for a good amount of time today. I am definitely going to re torque but that was enough oil that I am not optimistic on a easy fix. Valve covers have been on and off but I used the good thick rubber gaskets that are metal reinforced. But I did verify with a flashlight, its definitely coming out square in the back of the intake area. Good times.
 
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jrichker

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I have never really seen two that are in the exact same position. There are too many variables but the only one that matters is that the rotor points to 1 and the timing marks match up. Firing order is correct and the car runs without any misfires. I know what a engine with the wrong timing order sounds like. Been doing this for too many years and built too many engines. I can move the distributor and re time it if it makes people happier. Just a quick bounce around google and I can find them with the ignition module pointing all over the place. I could drop the distributor in several spots and still time it just fine. Trust me. The firing order is right and the timing light says its good. I will bring the timing back down on it probably when I get it back started and maybe it will look better for you? Not being a jerk but the computer and the car itself dont really care where the module is sitting, they only care where that rotor is when its time to fire.
That is correct up to the point that you do something non-standard to try to fix an Ooops…

Putting the distributor back in and setting the timing.

Revised 28-Apr-2018 to add photo & description of the SPOUT connector and SPOUT jumper .

You can forget about anything beyond this point if you don't have access to a timing light. You will never get the timing set right without one.

Note: If you don't have access to a timing light, most of the larger auto parts stores will rent or loan one if you have a credit card or leave a cash deposit.



Putting the distributor back in is fairly simple. Pull #1 sparkplug, put your finger in the sparkplug hole, crank the engine until you feel compression. Then line up the TDC mark on the balancer with the pointer on the engine block.

The distributor starts out with the #1 plug wire lined up at about 12:00 with you facing it. Align the rotor to about 11:00, since it will turn clockwise as it slides into place.

Align the distributor rotor up with the #1 position marked on the cap, slide the distributor down into the block, (you may have to wiggle the rotor slightly to get the gear to engage) and then note where the rotor is pointing.
If it still lines up with #1 position on the cap, install the clamp and bolt. If not, pull it out and turn 1 tooth forwards or backwards and try again. Put the #1 spark plug back in and tighten it down, put the clamp on the distributor, but don't tighten it too much, as you will have to move the distributor to set the timing.
Note that there is no such thing as one tooth off on a 5.0 Mustang if you follow the spark plug wire order on the distributor cap. If it doesn't align perfectly with #1 position, you can turn the distributor until it does. The only problem is that if you are too far one way or the other, you can't turn the distributor enough to get the 10-14 degree optimum timing range. If the TFI prevents the distributor from being turned enough to get 14°, there is a simple fix. Pull the distributor out and turn the rotor 1 tooth counterclockwise.

Here's where the Ooops comes in...Don't move the wires from the positions shown on the cap on fuel injected engines!!!! The #1 position cast into the cap MUST have the spark plug wire for #1 cylinder in it. Do it differently and the timing for the fuel injectors will be off. The computer uses the PIP sensor to time injector operation by sensing the wide slot in the PIP sensor shutter wheel. If the injector timing of #1 and the firing of #1 do not occur at the right time, the injector timing for all other cylinders will be affected.

Setting the timing:
Paint the mark on the harmonic balancer with paint -choose 10 degrees BTC or 14 degrees BTC or something else if you have NO2 or other power adder. I try to paint TDC red, 10 degrees BTC white and 14 degrees BTC blue.

10 degrees BTC is towards the drivers side marks.

Note: setting the timing beyond the 10 degree mark will give you a little more low speed acceleration. BUT you will need to run 93 octane to avoid pinging and engine damage. Pinging is very hard to hear at full throttle, so it could be present and you would not hear it.

Simplified diagram of what it looks like. Not all the marks are shown for ease of viewing.

ATC ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '!' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' BTC
---------------- > Direction of Rotation as viewed standing in front of the engine.

The ' is 2 degrees.
The ! is TDC
The ' is 10 degrees BTC
Set the timing 5 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 5 marks towards the driver's side to get 10 degrees.

To get 14 degrees, set it 7 marks BTC. Or if you prefer, 7 marks towards the driver's side to get 14 degrees.

The paint marks you make are your friends if you do it correctly. They are much easier to see than the marks machined into the harmonic balancer hub.

At this point hook up all the wires, get out the timing light. Connect timing light up to battery & #1 spark plug. Then start the engine.

Remove the SPOUT jumper
?hash=b7aa25fb4ed28609c02557131061b91b.jpg

?hash=b7aa25fb4ed28609c02557131061b91b.jpg

It is the 2 pin rectangular plug on the distributor wiring harness. Only the EFI Mustang engines have a SPOUT. If yours is not EFI, check for a SPOUT: if you don’t find one, skip any instructions regarding the SPOUT. The SPOUT (Spark Out) enables the computer to control the spark advance. When the SPOUT is removed, the ignition timing reverts to the base ignition timing set by either the spark rod inside the distributor or the physical position of the distributor.

Warning: there are only two places the SPOUT should be when you time the engine. The first place is in your pocket while you are setting the timing and the second is back in the harness when you finish. The little bugger is too easy to lose and too hard to find a replacement.
Start engine, loosen distributor hold down with a 1/2" universal socket. Shine the timing light on the marks and turn the distributor until the mark lines up with the edge of the timing pointer. Tighten down the distributor hold down bolt, Replace the SPOUT connector and you are done.

The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

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79pace

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Thanks for the timing lesson?

So I got the intake back off and definitely found a rookie mistake. Of all the intakes I have installed over the years I have never manged this. Good news is that I did not find any signs of a leak at the ports but I ordered new intake gaskets (slightly larger this time. The others were borderline) and I am replacing all of the gaskets on the upper intake as well. Probably wont be able to finish it up till Tuesday or after. Will update when I have it started again.
 

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General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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You got me thinking, I pulled my intake off 3 times trying to fix that annoying whistle and wonder if I didn't do the same thing. :thinking:
I've never had an intake swap leak before.
 

79pace

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It definitely had a weird whistle I had never heard before. I have never done that before either. Looking at it now I dont see how I did. I did it on the engine stand.
 

a91what

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Just to make a few things clear...
The E303 has no overlap event, the tighter LSA of 110* is what gives it a lope at idle.
12-14 inHG is normal for the E303 at an 850 idle speed.

keep at it, you will get it figured out.