ford come back

[Gorilla68]

A long response - sorry but I had to vent a bit

I beg to differ:

Unions are not choking industry, management is.........

Not to mention certain people think management does not like to move jobs overseas, anyone who believes that is a fool. It is all bottom line to mgmt. as it would be for any of us if we were in charge. They do not care how their decisions affect the common worker as long as the stock price goes up as does their inflated pay.

Mustangs are not overpriced, lets see you find another car like the GT500 for the money (i mean sticker, not this $20K over crap), not to mention i think my GT was priced very well. What do you think they should charge for a GT? Is the V6 not inexpensive enough for you? i think a Mustang starting at $19,995 is a fine deal. Find a V6 charger for that, good luck.

On the Blazer you should have known they sucked before you got one, they have been junk since they came out with the small one over ten years ago.

You are apparently a union guy so i will ask you, do you think ANY non union jobs would provide all the health benefits, drug & alcohol rehabs and retirement plans the unions demand? not to mention the fixed hours, double overtime clauses, and granular job specificities so you as a worker do 1 and only 1 job? so the next guy can do another job and only that job? so now there are 2 guys doing 2 jobs that maybe 1 guy could do both things??? in privatized industry, you would be told to get off your butt and do both things and maybe a few more so the company can stay competitive and you get to keep your job. these are tough times. either you run lean and mean or you get f'd by competitors.

you union guys have to make a living, that's fine. the economy sucks so you need to make a certain amount of dough to stay alive, we get it. we have foreign cars imported every day being made by people making 50 bucks a month if they are supervisors. back in the USA, the unions say guys at this level get this much and 4 weeks paid vacation and he cannot be fired without a hearing and all the other perks and demands. I'm not talking out my butt, I have many friends in unions including one of my bros who just got back from iraq, so I am sympathetic. I'm not bashing, just speaking logically.

how can US industry compete unless we shut out the rest of the world? for what it's costing US companies to make one car, our friends in mexico, korea, japan, hong hong and elsewhere can make 4-5 cars just solely due to lower overhead. how can management NOT see that and see the short term solution is to move manufacturing offshore? they have people to answer to, the shareholders. Or maybe they should keep the comapny running inefficiently to spare the jobs of the people that are, in their eyes, costing too much, always asking for more, and unwilling to bend on the things they want? A lot of this is echoing some of your points earlier in the thread. And yes - historically, unions are the reason there are labor laws in place.

to be fair - I agree with your take on management. there are too many chiefs and not enough indians at the top rungs of management, and as I said in my post, they make decisions at glacial speed. too many people = diffused accountability. nobody wants to make decisions on their own so it becomes a 14 month group process to order blue bic pens instead of black. if the blue pens suck, it was EVERYBODYS fault - so it was nobody's fault. Often times these people get promoted to an inverse level to their ineptitude. I deal with these C-Level managers in my work in advertising. they are mostly idiots.

as far as overpriced, the GT I ordered is a little overpriced at around 30K. I'm no cheapskate, for the record. I got almost every option they offered. the v6 at 19K is fair. this also relates to another part of my later post as to why is there a 10 grand difference between the base model and the supremo model? it is a bit much, no?

as for the GT500 @ 20K over - I love stangs but for the money, I'd rather get a vette or an old porsche or some other car I've always wanted.

as far as the blazer - I wanted a small sporty 2 door SUV. I got the ZR2 model with the high suspension and big tires, it looked pretty mean with the brushguard and the step rails. is it too much to ask that a $28,000 vechicle last for 3 years and 34000 miles without screwing up? I swore I'd never buy an american car again, especially after leasing a toyota 4runner that has had NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER, but here I am waiting to take delivery on my 'stang and i am stoked about it. I hope I am not disappointed.

 

[bakorexer]

I greatly agree with your statement!
I have seen too many companies shut down and leave California due to the strong arming of these unions. Majority of all the imported cars from Japan are being manufactured for less and the profit margins are greater due to not having a union. Toyota for example is another one of the manufacturers that are still being productive and making gains each year even though the U.S. has placed higher taxes and tariffs on them. Toyota started the "think mean, operate lean" attitude and allowed other companies to bid on assembling the automobiles here in the states. It is only obvious that unions are suppressing the competitiveness as well as the productivity. I sir greatly agree with you, as the company I work for has been forced to out source a lot of our business based upon environmental issues as well as union disputes, which continues to stifle production and profitability; but I also live in California, the same state that the union spent more in propaganda in the last election that both of the candidates did in the last presidential election. Go Figure.

The union has screwed the whole situation. Ford has obligations to retired workers that it just can't maintain. GM is in the same boat. This is a fact, not my opinion. They are putting out billion$ that the private sector would never even consider because it doesn't have the unions to deal with.

Ford is making some damn good vehicles as far as I'm concerned. All of the SUV's have redesigned IRS set-ups which costed hundreds of millions to develop. The new stangs are a major achievement. They are still a bunch of idiots in a lot of areas though. Like, why does the new V-6 engine have forged internals and the 3-valve GT engine has crap. Doesn't make sense to me. A nissan V-6 makes the Ford V-6 look like and old farm tractor engine.

 

[Schlitz-420]

You are apparently a union guy so i will ask you, do you think ANY non union jobs would provide all the health benefits, drug & alcohol rehabs and retirement plans the unions demand? not to mention the fixed hours, double overtime clauses, and granular job specificities so you as a worker do 1 and only 1 job? so the next guy can do another job and only that job? so now there are 2 guys doing 2 jobs that maybe 1 guy could do both things??? in privatized industry, you would be told to get off your butt and do both things and maybe a few more so the company can stay competitive and you get to keep your job. these are tough times. either you run lean and mean or you get f'd by competitors.

That's funny, I have to do a variety of jobs in my position as well as train and supervise. Yes i think some jobs would provide the above mentioned benefits, the casino where i live provides better benefits than i have and i am in a union. I have never heard of double overtime and my hours are not fixed other than which schedule of many one is assigned.

you union guys have to make a living, that's fine. the economy sucks so you need to make a certain amount of dough to stay alive, we get it. we have foreign cars imported every day being made by people making 50 bucks a month if they are supervisors. back in the USA, the unions say guys at this level get this much and 4 weeks paid vacation and he cannot be fired without a hearing and all the other perks and demands. I'm not talking out my butt, I have many friends in unions including one of my bros who just got back from iraq, so I am sympathetic. I'm not bashing, just speaking logically.

If you look back up i said the same thing, the UAW in Michigan has given unions a bad name. We agree.

how can US industry compete unless we shut out the rest of the world? for what it's costing US companies to make one car, our friends in mexico, korea, japan, hong hong and elsewhere can make 4-5 cars just solely due to lower overhead. how can management NOT see that and see the short term solution is to move manufacturing offshore? they have people to answer to, the shareholders. Or maybe they should keep the comapny running inefficiently to spare the jobs of the people that are, in their eyes, costing too much, always asking for more, and unwilling to bend on the things they want? A lot of this is echoing some of your points earlier in the thread. And yes - historically, unions are the reason there are labor laws in place.

They have to do what they have to do in their opinion but i think that when these things happen union contracts should be voided if they are unreasonable and are going to cause the necessary changes in moving labor. At the same time management should not be able to make stupid deals that are shortly thereafter untenable thus requiring drastic changes in labor costs in order to stay competitive. I hate the WTO and would rather pay more for what i buy in order that American's made it.

as far as overpriced, the GT I ordered is a little overpriced at around 30K. I'm no cheapskate, for the record. I got almost every option they offered. the v6 at 19K is fair. this also relates to another part of my later post as to why is there a 10 grand difference between the base model and the supremo model? it is a bit much, no?

as for the GT500 @ 20K over - I love stangs but for the money, I'd rather get a vette or an old porsche or some other car I've always wanted.

I felt like it was a good deal and I paid $28K for mine (too much). I said I think the GT500 is a great car for sticker, not with the markup.

 

[Rock36]

You are apparently a union guy so i will ask you, do you think ANY non union jobs would provide all the health benefits, drug & alcohol rehabs and retirement plans the unions demand? not to mention the fixed hours, double overtime clauses, and granular job specificities so you as a worker do 1 and only 1 job? so the next guy can do another job and only that job? so now there are 2 guys doing 2 jobs that maybe 1 guy could do both things??? in privatized industry, you would be told to get off your butt and do both things and maybe a few more so the company can stay competitive and you get to keep your job. these are tough times. either you run lean and mean or you get f'd by competitors.

you union guys have to make a living, that's fine. the economy sucks so you need to make a certain amount of dough to stay alive, we get it. we have foreign cars imported every day being made by people making 50 bucks a month if they are supervisors. back in the USA, the unions say guys at this level get this much and 4 weeks paid vacation and he cannot be fired without a hearing and all the other perks and demands........

I think there are some gross generalizations in that statement with the only thing to back it up is that you have a friend in the Unions. Schlitz-420 pointed out some false assertions himself.

Germany has some very strict labor laws and everything you criticize, but yet they have successful automotive industries. Perhaps it is thier nationalized health care that shifts the burden from the automotive industry, but you also seem to be the type who would go against a nationalized health care system too. So how are thier automotive companies successful with unions and more severe labor laws?

If you point to Germany's quality product, advertising, and styling then you are ignoring the assertion you just made about unions choking the industry. Since, again, Germany achieves their quality product under strict labor demands.

Furthermore I'm sure any supervisor making only 50 dollars a month also lives in a country where 50 dollars goes a long way. Comparing that to an American salary isn't fair.

historically, unions are the reason there are labor laws in place.

Based on the context of your posts I going to assume you look at this in a generally negative light. Personally, I would love to return to the time when there were no child labor laws, no safety standards, no OSHA, no sick leave requirements, etc. (sarcasm)

Majority of all the imported cars from Japan are being manufactured for less and the profit margins are greater due to not having a union.

Last time I checked Japan HAS labor unions sometimes known as trade unions.

In fact they have the JAW, Japan Automobile Workers Union, very much like the UAW

So once again, the same issue.....Japan has a successful automotive industry even though they have AUTOMOTIVE LABOR UNIONS.

 

[Schlitz-420]

I think there are some gross generalizations in that statement with the only thing to back it up is that you have a friend in the Unions. Schlitz-420 pointed out some false assertions himself.

Clue me in, what was false?

 

[Gorilla68]

Listen guys - for the record - If you read my posts in this thread (yes all 3 of them) I bash management just as much as unions. I'm arguing that there has to be changes on both sides of the fence to produce REAL change. Union guys will pound their chests and say the union is right, management will say they are right...stalemate. open mindedness and innovative thinking is what's needed to turn it around. better product (aesthetically and structurally), lower price points and better marketing. unfortunately it's usually a "choose one of the above" scenario.

As I recall, this thread was more about how to fix the problem and not so much about unions being good or evil.

 

[bakorexer]

couldn't have said that better myself!

The unions have destoyed industry in this country. They hold the management hostage for deals that are ridiculous. Why should some jackass on an assembly line with no skill other than bitching and bolting a battery in make more money than an experienced private sector technician who could fix just about anything that comes his way. I could see if the private sector guys were making substantially more money for comparable skills, but that's just not the case. You can't blame the health care costs for stupid decisions made by management who are being held hostage by the unions. I've done many a job for union outfits that don't want me there because I work circles around the lazy whiners who couldn't fix their junk without a guy from my company. I've got friends that work as forklift mechanics at GM and they can't even begin removing an engine until a union electrician comes to disconnect the battery when he's damn good and ready. Until the electrician gets there, the mechanic sits on his rump.

If you are a union member I see why you are happy and that's ok, you are benefitting from the way things are. More power to you.

 

[SVTdriver]

couldn't have said that better myself!

And yet you didn't say anything about the post that disputed the previous post you made.

 

[chefster]

Hey ,I imagine the Chinese labor will go through the same fights our labor unions went through years ago,and things will start to equalize. My dad [he's almost 90]says godbless the UAW[because thats when things got better]and godbless Ford for giving me a job. I guess you had to be there to really understand how industrialization changed the pressures on the little guy and how the unions was a direct opposite and equal reaction to the big action. Every thing has its time and life cycle. Go Ford

 

[bakorexer]

I think there are some gross generalizations in that statement with the only thing to back it up is that you have a friend in the Unions. Schlitz-420 pointed out some false assertions himself.

Germany has some very strict labor laws and everything you criticize, but yet they have successful automotive industries. Perhaps it is thier nationalized health care that shifts the burden from the automotive industry, but you also seem to be the type who would go against a nationalized health care system too. So how are thier automotive companies successful with unions and more severe labor laws?

If you point to Germany's quality product, advertising, and styling then you are ignoring the assertion you just made about unions choking the industry. Since, again, Germany achieves their quality product under strict labor demands.

Furthermore I'm sure any supervisor making only 50 dollars a month also lives in a country where 50 dollars goes a long way. Comparing that to an American salary isn't fair.



Based on the context of your posts I going to assume you look at this in a generally negative light. Personally, I would love to return to the time when there were no child labor laws, no safety standards, no OSHA, no sick leave requirements, etc. (sarcasm)



Last time I checked Japan HAS labor unions sometimes known as trade unions.

In fact they have the JAW, Japan Automobile Workers Union, very much like the UAW

So once again, the same issue.....Japan has a successful automotive industry even though they have AUTOMOTIVE LABOR UNIONS.

You are correct, there are Japanese Unions, but in the U.S. they avoid our unions by having other companies compete and bid on the assembly because our unions have been micromanaged to the point of death. Secondly you are comparing Apples to Broccoli, very completely different countries, labor laws, and competitive work forces. Japan has a stronger work ethic then we in the states do; they work longer and harder shift’s for less money; Do your homework. American union workers have a lazy mentality for the most part, I have worked with many union workers and can only say 1% of the ones I met are hard workers, and the rest have that stupid sense of entitlement. No need to get butt hurt because you apparently are the only hard working American union worker out there, but look around at your counterparts and ask yourself is there anybody out there that would do this job better and for less. Talk about kicking a dead horse. The Union had their day and did a great job, but once you regulated everything possible, what else is there for them to do now? The only thing I can think of is micro manage and line their pockets with your dues.

 

[bakorexer]

Your obviously butt hurt as well, so see the latest post as well as this article stating the demise of the Auto industry straight from the horses mouth.
http://www.goofigure.com/UserGoofigureDetail.asp?gooID=6571&catID=&forID=1&searchfield=&usrID=&

And yet you didn't say anything about the post that disputed the previous post you made.

 

[Penguin]

Maybe this will help Ford's comeback. /sarcasm

Ford is suing companies for use of Mustang name

I set up a website that puts together all the information on this issue, please visit it at FightFord.org. There are free protest packages, and links to all the petitions at the site.

Written by: Anonymous Mustang Enthusiast / Business Associate

For those of you who are not familiar with recently exposed affairs of Ford Motor Company, this article should serve to summarize and give further insight into what is taking place. Ford is actively threatening and filing suit against all companies using the word Mustang in their company name.

As more articles and information come to the table, the gravity of this situation further shows itself. Unfortunately, none of the current articles/forum posts written to date have established exactly how deep this issue really goes. I have heard things said along the lines of, “Who cares about MustangsPlus(One of the first to come public), I don’t buy from them anyway” or “I can’t believe Ford is trying to get $10,000 dollars.” This war goes far beyond the scope of just a few companies, and the moneys involved are much more significant than ten thousand dollars. This is a legal war being brought to dozens of companies, and Ford has indicated many times that they are not stopping there. This issue threatens the entire Mustang aftermarket business and community.

Below is a list of companies I can confirm have received cease and desist orders from Ford. I can assure you there are many more who have not spoken publicly about it.

CaliforniaMustang.com || Cal-Mustang.com || MustangTuning.com || MustangsUnlimited.com || TexasMustang.com || DallasMustang.com || MustangDepot.com || StangParts.com || Sacramento-Mustang.com || MustangsPlus.com

I have talked to many of these store owners and can confidently say several of these stores have already been served lawsuits in Michigan. As those of you who have been involved in lawsuits know they are extremely time consuming and can be financially devastating. I do not want to speak on behalf of these companies but can safely assume that not all of these companies are in a financial position to defend themselves against a multibillion dollar company.

As I mentioned above this legal war with Ford will have devastating effects on both the industry and Mustang hobby. The aftermath of Ford’s action will initially disrupt the mustang aftermarket industry but will eventually trickle down and affect each and every mustang enthusiast. A pending lawsuit of this magnitude will immediately cause Mustang shops to divert resources. Time, money and attention will be spent on the impeding legal battles, and not on essential business affairs. Many of these core business functions are what keep the Mustang industry and community alive and growing. One of the most important services these businesses offer to the Mustang community is development of new products. Mustang aftermarket shops play a large role developing new products for the aftermarket community. They are on the frontline when it comes to talking to mustang enthusiasts and getting the ball rolling on the latest aftermarket mods. Some shops take it to the next level and have products manufactured in house. Others will work as the middle man letting the big manufacturers know where there is demand. The food chain of new product development is being greatly impacted.

The other services aftermarket shops offer to the community include, but are not limited to advertising, sponsorships and promotional events. Advertising dollars have become increasingly valuable to the mustang community with the recent increase in websites dedicated to mustangs, online forums, and new mustang magazines. These new media outlets are popping up because the advertising dollar is there to support them.

As some of you may have read in “Mustang Monthly” Ford lawyers have made direct threats to these media outlets. They have threatened to sue the websites, forums and large magazines that use mustang in their name. While I find it unlikely Ford would pursue lawsuits against these outlets, the reality is the Ford doesn’t need to directly attack these media outlets to hurt them. Mustang aftermarket shops are what fuel these websites, forums, and magazines. I am sure you have all noticed the abundance of ads on forums, websites and print magazines. These ads are what pay the bills. They keep the forums you visit every day running, and the staff at these magazines working diligently. As advertisers become occupied fighting this absurd dispute surely the funding and eventually the quality of these resources will fade.

Prosecuting the mustang aftermarket shops is an attack on the entire mustang community. The successful history of the Mustang can be attributed in strong part to the Mustang community and their support, loyalty, and love for the Mustang car. This leaves us with many unanswered questions. Why are they attacking the very companies that promote their product? Why are they going after the Mustang enthusiasts that support and love their cars? Why now, when many of these businesses have been around for decades? While it is easy for us to foresee the damage Ford will be doing to themselves in the long term, the law firms in charge are much too short sighted to understand this, or care either way.

Thus far, one Ford representative, Mustang Marketing director Jim Owens, has come forward and made efforts to slap some sense into Ford’s legal firms. This excerpt below shows he has begun to make efforts to get to the bottom of this,

“I met with Jim Owens, Ford’s Mustang Marketing Manager, during last weekend’s Mid-America Shelby Meet in Tulsa. Jim relayed to me that he was not aware of the legal department’s pursuit of companies using the Mustang name until someone sent him an advance copy of my editorial. He immediately went to the legal department and told them that the enforcement was not to the benefit of Ford Motor Company. Jim told me that as a result of his meeting(s) with legal, the cease and desist letters are no longer being sent out and that they are trying to figure out how to resolve the situation with companies that have already been contacted. Also, they are working on some type of licensing program that would allow companies in good standing to continue using the Mustang name, perhaps with something as simple as a $1 licensing fee. Nothing is official yet, but I reiterated to Jim that time is of the essence, seeing how many of the contacted companies are spending money every week on lawyers and legal fees.” - Donald Farr, Editor Mustang Monthly Magazine

I was thrilled when I first came across this statement. It shows that the efforts being made with the media, the people, and the petitions, have finally broken the surface. This is a major step in the battle. A representative of Ford has made clear acknowledgement as to the harm that these issues will cause to their company. I applaud Jim for the effort he is making. Unfortunately, I can ensure you the legal battles have not come to an end, and are far from over. I am aware of continuing legal action, as well as new threats being made by Ford’s legal department. It appears as if Jim’s efforts may not have been strong enough to put this issue to sleep. Regardless, this is the type of thing that has the potential to make good progress, so it can be viewed as a hurdle crossed.

Many of your favorite Mustang shops are still paying lawyers day in and day out to defend this fatal issue. Things occur slowly at large companies, and it is difficult to get a company of Ford’s size to change anything. Nothing short of a continued outpouring of support and tremendous effort on the part of the Mustang community will put an end to this struggle.

It is times like these when I am disgraced to bleed Blue.

-FightFord.org

 

[bakorexer]

Yeah, no kidding.. I already signed that petition.

 

[Rock36]

You are correct, there are Japanese Unions, but in the U.S. they avoid our unions by having other companies compete and bid on the assembly because our unions have been micromanaged to the point of death. Secondly you are comparing Apples to Broccoli, very completely different countries, labor laws, and competitive work forces. Japan has a stronger work ethic then we in the states do; they work longer and harder shift’s for less money; Do your homework. American union workers have a lazy mentality for the most part, I have worked with many union workers and can only say 1% of the ones I met are hard workers, and the rest have that stupid sense of entitlement. No need to get butt hurt because you apparently are the only hard working American union worker out there, but look around at your counterparts and ask yourself is there anybody out there that would do this job better and for less. Talk about kicking a dead horse. The Union had their day and did a great job, but once you regulated everything possible, what else is there for them to do now? The only thing I can think of is micro manage and line their pockets with your dues.

Yeah I know I am correct that there are unions in Japan. You are the one who said Japan had NO unions...meaning zero unions.

Go ahead and change your argument and say that Japanese unions are different than American ones. It is much better than what you said before. However I still believe that the bottom line is that unions collectively bargain for better wages and benefits no matter what country you are in or language you speak. Sure there are differences, I never claimed they were EXACTLY the same. But unions are still an obstacle to any company that would rather pay the bare minimum necessary.

Yes people have pointed to management too, but the focus is clearly shifted to the unions. Gorilla68 did say management was partially to blame, but his posts shifted towards unions, which I decided to comment on.

Besides I'm not in a union anyway. I'm in the Army, and we are unable to lobby or collectively bargain for ourselves. I am not complaining, I'm just illustrating how I have no union affiliation period and no reason to be "Butthurt". BTW my avatar is a picture of some of my work in Iraq, that was fun.

Schlitz-420: I was referring to when you said you are union, but yet do more than one job. The other guy complained that union workers don't do more than one job.


Anyway my whole point is this. US companies could be successful in spite of the existence of unions. Yes they could benefit from changes in unions and/or management, but this thread has transformed more into a anti-union thread instead of talking about things American companies could do in terms of fresh ideas and products. I think Gorilla68 said some great things about advertisement, quality, perception, cool factor, etc, but then it all turned into this unions suck rant which to me is usless to talk about. The unions aren't going anywhere anytime soon or ever, but there are many other things American companies have the ability to change and develop.

 

[bakorexer]

Yeah I know I am correct that there are unions in Japan. You are the one who said Japan had NO unions...meaning zero unions.

Go ahead and change your argument and say that Japanese unions are different than American ones. It is much better than what you said before. However I still believe that the bottom line is that unions collectively bargain for better wages and benefits no matter what country you are in or language you speak. Sure there are differences, I never claimed they were EXACTLY the same. But unions are still an obstacle to any company that would rather pay the bare minimum necessary.

Yes people have pointed to management too, but the focus is clearly shifted to the unions. Gorilla68 did say management was partially to blame, but his posts shifted towards unions, which I decided to comment on.

Besides I'm not in a union anyway. I'm in the Army, and we are unable to lobby or collectively bargain for ourselves. I am not complaining, I'm just illustrating how I have no union affiliation period and no reason to be "Butthurt". BTW my avatar is a picture of some of my work in Iraq, that was fun.

Schlitz-420: I was referring to when you said you are union, but yet do more than one job. The other guy complained that union workers don't do more than one job.


Anyway my whole point is this. US companies could be successful in spite of the existence of unions. Yes they could benefit from changes in unions and/or management, but this thread has transformed more into a anti-union thread instead of talking about things American companies could do in terms of fresh ideas and products. I think Gorilla68 said some great things about advertisement, quality, perception, cool factor, etc, but then it all turned into this unions suck rant which to me is usless to talk about. The unions aren't going anywhere anytime soon or ever, but there are many other things American companies have the ability to change and develop.

First of all you misinterpreted what I was saying about Japanese unions, I was comparing U.S. domestic sales, which Japan does not have a union here to thwart their profits; only tariffs, and taxes. Japan is manufacturing there cars in the U.S. now to avoid these financial obstacles. Japanese unions have no bearing on our market, only there own in Japan. Sorry I didn't explain it well enough, but the article I attached covers every point and explains specifically what the issues that are stifling success for our domestic car manufactures, and majority of those issues is union caused. Enough said...
Secondly I too served in the military and salute you for your hard works and efforts. Keep it up, you're all in our thoughts and prayers. HoooRahh!

 

[bakorexer]

Yeah I know I am correct that there are unions in Japan. You are the one who said Japan had NO unions...meaning zero unions.

Go ahead and change your argument and say that Japanese unions are different than American ones. It is much better than what you said before. However I still believe that the bottom line is that unions collectively bargain for better wages and benefits no matter what country you are in or language you speak. Sure there are differences, I never claimed they were EXACTLY the same. But unions are still an obstacle to any company that would rather pay the bare minimum necessary.

Yes people have pointed to management too, but the focus is clearly shifted to the unions. Gorilla68 did say management was partially to blame, but his posts shifted towards unions, which I decided to comment on.

Besides I'm not in a union anyway. I'm in the Army, and we are unable to lobby or collectively bargain for ourselves. I am not complaining, I'm just illustrating how I have no union affiliation period and no reason to be "Butthurt". BTW my avatar is a picture of some of my work in Iraq, that was fun.

Schlitz-420: I was referring to when you said you are union, but yet do more than one job. The other guy complained that union workers don't do more than one job.


Anyway my whole point is this. US companies could be successful in spite of the existence of unions. Yes they could benefit from changes in unions and/or management, but this thread has transformed more into a anti-union thread instead of talking about things American companies could do in terms of fresh ideas and products. I think Gorilla68 said some great things about advertisement, quality, perception, cool factor, etc, but then it all turned into this unions suck rant which to me is usless to talk about. The unions aren't going anywhere anytime soon or ever, but there are many other things American companies have the ability to change and develop.

First of all you misinterpreted what I was saying about Japanese unions, I was comparing U.S. domestic sales, which Japan does not have a union here to thwart their profits; only tariffs, and taxes. Japan is manufacturing there cars in the U.S. now to avoid these financial obstacles. Japanese unions have no bearing on our market, only there own in Japan. Sorry I didn't explain it well enough, but the article I attached covers every point and explains specifically what the issues that are stifling success for our domestic car manufactures, and majority of those issues is union caused. Enough said...
Secondly I too served in the military and salute you for your hard works and efforts. Keep it up, you're all in our thoughts and prayers. HoooRahh!

 

[bakorexer]

sorry for the double post! slow computer.

 

[Schlitz-420]

Schlitz-420: I was referring to when you said you are union, but yet do more than one job. The other guy complained that union workers don't do more than one job.

Right on, that illustrates the fact that perception is not always reality. I have to do whatever my boss tells me or I have a problem. Sure I can pull out my contract but do that too many times and they will get rid of you anyway. Besides there is a little clause in my job description: other duties as assigned. That means they can make me do just about anything they want for a given period of time before I can cry and insist they add it to my job description, which only makes it legal that I do it, it does not make me any more money. I just got off work @6pm and my out time was 4:30pm, but I needed to install some new HP switches and my boss preferred that I come in late and stay late, he did not give me an option, that is how he wanted it done. This is why I wigged on Anthony when he started bagging unions making it sound like we are all lazy idiots that can't accomplish anything and just sit around all the time, then we have contractors come and save the day. Most of the contractors that do things for us are not the most adept and usually have to return to fix mistakes they make. At the same time many are highly skilled professionals that do a wonderful job.

While this thread has gone in a somewhat bad direction the original idea was what Ford could do to be more successful. I think that labor costs have to be looked at across the board in all areas of business in this country. I think we all also need to buy American whenever possible and do what we can to provide more American goods. Unfortunately we cannot start businesses as easy as we once did. Try getting a patent that sure is an expensive pain in the _ss. Unemployment insurance, Comp insurance, health insurance, malpractice insurance....these necessary evils (are they?) are straddling many a business. Even if you make a product of good value and can keep your labor costs in check, some competitor from Malaysia or elsewhere will outprice you. Look at those tacky magnetic ribbons people put on their cars; a company that made something else out of the same material came up with it after 9/11 and after a short period of time (6 months I think) they were seeing them from China and a variety of other countries, so they had to stop making them as it was no longer profitable. It always seems to comeback to labor in the end but there are ways around this. We need to pull out of the WTO and use tariffs and other measures when needed to protect our markets from dumping. Yeah steelworkers make a decent wage, but was it fair for Asian steel to be dumped on our market for less than it cost the company to make it in an attempt to defeat their competition and later raise prices? I think no. The current tax system also benefits a company when it moves labor and finance offshore, that is insane! I better shutup as this is a book now but I think we all need to shop at mom and pop businesses more, we need to examine how much our neighbor's ability to earn a living means versus our need to get a 21" Daewoo TV at Wal-Mart for $69. It’s funny, we all know anything cheap always has a catch, but when it comes to us saving money we seem to forget about that.

BTW, thank you ever so much for your service Rock36, and to all other AD and Vets on this forum. I am very proud of you guys and wish there was more we could for you while you are "over there". I also think we should make a chain of Stangs and run over the holy rollers protesting soldiers funerals, they should be drawn and quartered!

 

[Rock36]

First of all you misinterpreted what I was saying about Japanese unions, I was comparing U.S. domestic sales, which Japan does not have a union here to thwart their profits; only tariffs, and taxes. Japan is manufacturing there cars in the U.S. now to avoid these financial obstacles. Japanese unions have no bearing on our market, only there own in Japan. Sorry I didn't explain it well enough, but the article I attached covers every point and explains specifically what the issues that are stifling success for our domestic car manufactures, and majority of those issues is union caused. Enough said...
Secondly I too served in the military and salute you for your hard works and efforts. Keep it up, you're all in our thoughts and prayers. HoooRahh!

Gotcha, I understand your point now.

Thanks for all everyones support too. I wasn't trying to wave my service in anyones face, I just wanted to point out I wasn't defending unions because I was in a union. Thanks again for the support though! I'm positive there are plenty of other service members, past and present, on this site that appreciate the support too.

 

[shooterm1]

ok ,I was raised and fed by my dad workin at ford,we need to put our heads together...whats it need to do to turn around?

From my prespective, the #1 thing that Ford needs to do is to trust their young designers right now .........

Within that framework, they also need to look at cars that are already selling well in Europe and elsewhere and bring them over to the US Market FAST!!!

They also need to reconstitute the SVT group!

and last but not least,,, whip their Dealers into line (as someone else said above)
and force them to be more of an asset to FoMoCo and less able to put their own interest in front of Ford's.

each one of these points as their own strategies and targets for success.

but the bottom line is that no one thing will accomplish Ford's resurrection alone.