help with new 302 HO in a 90

DrClaw7

New Member
Sep 10, 2010
9
0
0
Asheville, Nc
hi all ~ im new to the stangnet community. i run my own customer shop out of my personal garage, mostly a side business (i work at a normal repair shop for my day job). so its not like im new to cars. but in i specialize in euro cars. i've built my bmw from top to bottom and back to front, and many others like it. but i took a job for a friend on a 90 mustang he just picked up. 92k on the dash, the PO said it was all original 92,xxx miles. supposed to be an ex police car. 5.0 HO. body is strait, its a coupe. headman headers, custom exhaust with flowmasters. the red paint could use a buff, but its not bad. i can see lots of over spray, and lots of bare yellow in the engine bay shows its not the original paint. so i've been threw hell with this car....so this might get a bit long winded, my apologizes in advance.

drove it around for 2 days then after spinning tires threw 2nd gear there was a loud clang and it started running like crap and rattling. so inspection began...around 2 quarts low on oil. pulled the valve covers and one valve seal on the drivers side was cracked and pieces of it are moving around inside the valve spring. on the other side a mounting bolt for the very rear rocker arm pedestal snapped off and the arm was laying on its side. also i should note that the entire top end of this car was filthy. new alternator, cap/rotor, wires (cut to fit accel wires that weren't cut and jumbled all over the engine bay), plugs...so some one put one some shiny new parts....but inside of the drivers side valve cover had twigs and leaves in it along with both sides having an amazingly think layer of built up grim. i measured nearly a half inch of gunk in a few spots. a/c compressor seems good but the lines are entirely missing (like i've seen a million times when people throw another motor in, esspecially from a junk yard...)

the tear down begins...

heads off, found out they are E7 heads. pressure tested, valve job, new seals, comp cam's dual valve springs and push rods. the 1.6 ratio arms were going to take to long to ship for my customer, so i put new stock rocker arms in. basically just rebuilt the top end. all new gaskets of course, stock head gasket size. blah blah blah...long story short when it came back together it didn't take long to hear a piston slap. it just got run to hard with no oil. it smoked pretty bad. i tried to tell him to rebuild the motor while i had the heads off but he still wanted to believe the motor only had ninety thousand miles on it.

change in plans...

just happened to find a fresh motor right as we decided something had to be done. lincoln 302 roller motor. fully rebuild by a pro mechanic, put in an old mans car, drove 50 miles and changed the oil. 3000 miles and another oil change. 650 miles and a tree fell on it. so he bought the motor back from the old man for his own mustang. his plans fell threw and i got the motor for this project. fully assembled block and heads together. he told me: the heads are the same as e7's, the only difference is the cam had a regular 302 firing order, but he just put a new cam in his HO, so he put the HO cam from his car in the lincoln motor. swapped over all the accessories, oil pan, harmonic balancer, and timing chain cover. brand new clutch and fly wheel, new starter, new water pump, new 160 deg t-stat, high performance ignition coil, new starter solenoid, msd cap and rotor, new 8mm wires, motocraft plugs (they were in the lincoln motor already and he just wants to get it running at this point). first thing i noticed when swapping motors, theres no dust shield or what ever the plate is between the engine and trans. he doesn't want to replace it yet so i put the lincoln motor in with out it. he figures it was running with out it before, get it running then start fixing the smaller things.

here is where it gets interesting...so my customer bought this slew of high performance parts when he first bought the car. thats where some of these parts i used came from. among this mass is a BBK SS-I manifold/high flow fuel rails/70mm throttle body package. i installed it on top of everything in the above paragraph, using stock FPR and stock injectors. 3 of the stock injectors have noticeably been replaced. but the adjustable regulator hasnt arrived yet, nor have the 24lb injectors. i've done some searching and i know these things are notorious for fuel leaks, but i got that taken car of. the other thing i didn't know about until i got the top of it on, was that the stock egr will not clear the metal coolant lines. i don't know if maybe thats not normal and somethings just wasn't right, but i just did some fabrication and ran rubber lines instead of the meal piece. frees up a lot of clearance issues, its a lot easier to tinker with things with out taking every thing off, and even easier to take things off when you have too.

got it started....it took some work though. when setting the TDC the engine hung up in a spot, and just would not move at all. had to bump it with the starter to get past that spot. i thought that odd. after tinkering with the timing i finally got it to start....then it would die right after wards. if you hold the gas in just the right spot you can get it to stay running. but if you just barley open the accelerator a touch and it revs way up and very fast!! it sounds good when it runs, but it wont stay running. ive tried adjusting the idle screw, but theres no happy medium, moving the distributor back and forth wont even it out either.

i've been over the vacuum system a million times. no vacuum leaks. i know that intake is a lot of air, but i figured the stock intake tube, filter box, and heads would restrict it, and it would at least run. also i figured that with stock injectors and FPR it would avoid having to get a tune before the 24lb injectors and adjustable FPR, but still be drivable. but could it be so much of a difference that it just wont run with the stock injectors? do i have to have injectors/tune/something else to make it run? is there a sensor i need to check that would cause those symptoms? i also noticed that i cant get the service engine light to come on with the KOEO (key on engine off) like it should. so i dont know if the bulb is blown or has been removed, and dont know if it was on originally, i say this because i noticed the o2 sensor harness was not plugged in with the original engine, and i plugged it back in when installing the new engine. the map sensor was also originally unplugged from both the harness and vacuum. the throttle body has a new sensor it in. i had some help looking at it with me today and he took the TPS off and moved it just a touch and the engine rev'ed up high and fast with out the throttle body even being opened. all the sensors are plugged in. the only vacuum line that changed was the FPR was routed to the tree on the fire wall in an empty port. the cross over tube between the heads was reused from the original motor, and its clogged up in the tube, and where it comes off of the passenger side head it's cut off, pinched and J.B. welded. there was no smog pump and since i reused all the accessories i just used the same belt and routed it the same way. i can't think of any thing else "special" about it. if i do i'll post it. i have pics of everything but i gotta get them off my memory card so i'll post those up later. and words of advice or experience in such matters would be much appreciated. im just not used to these american cars i guess...
 
  • Sponsors(?)


HISSIN50

"How long does it take to get help in here?
15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
31,179
31
129
Are you sure the dizzy isn't 180* out?
 

Mustang5L5

Put lubricant all over the balls
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
36,936
12,809
224
Massachusetts
is there any one out there running a bbk ss-i manifold/rails/BBTB on a stock motor?


You won't really find a lot of positives about that intake here.


But as suggested, make sure the dizzy is not 180* out and double check the firing order as well as make sure the injectors are plugged intomthe correct plug on the harness.


And yes, you need the starter index plate between engine and trans. It's not so much a dust shield as it indexes the starter. Also, it does keep water, dirt and other crud out of the clutch. It will run without it but it should be installed.
 

DrClaw7

New Member
Sep 10, 2010
9
0
0
Asheville, Nc
i have noticed the opnions of the ss-i on here aren't very good. customers choice though. and the ports on the fuel rails will be good for installing the larger dual pump system later on down the down when this turbo kit and the other motor come together....

i do still need to play with the timing. the guy i had helping me turned it a few teeth, couldnt get it right, and i never got to reset it. do i need to unplug the little box on the wiring harness next to the distributor, reset it, and then plug it in?
 

DrClaw7

New Member
Sep 10, 2010
9
0
0
Asheville, Nc
i have noticed the opnions of the ss-i on here aren't very good. customers choice though. and the ports on the fuel rails will be good for installing the larger dual pump system later on down the down when this turbo kit and the other motor come together....

i do still need to play with the timing. the guy i had helping me turned it a few teeth, couldnt get it right, and i never got to reset it. do i need to unplug the little box on the wiring harness next to the distributor, reset it, and then plug it in?
 

Mustang5L5

Put lubricant all over the balls
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
36,936
12,809
224
Massachusetts
That box prevents the computer from advancing the timing.

So to check timing, pull the square plug out (SPOUT connector) and then set timing to 10-12degrees btdc. Then put the square plug back in when done.

If you can set the timing, then the dizzy is not 180* out, but I would recheck firing order. Are you 100% sure the person who had the short block put a ho camshaft in using the 351 firing order?

To set the idle, there is a procedure to follow as well. First, you must unplug the idle air controller and the spout connector. This prevents the car from advancing timing or idle as you adjust it. You may need to do this with engine running. Then, adjust the idle screw to 600-800 rpm. Disconnect the battery for 30 mins and plug the iac and spout back in and restart the car. It will learn idle strategy now. Any time you touch the idle screw, gotta reset the computer.

Also, any check engine codes? The MIL is limited on these cars and only 15 codes out of 100 actually set the light off. Wouldn't hurt to to run the codes.
 

DrClaw7

New Member
Sep 10, 2010
9
0
0
Asheville, Nc
ok so i set the time to 10 deg btc, dizzy on number one, with the firing order for a HO/351 and got it to run. it would idle out. you have to play with the throttle to keep it running. and when you just barley touch the pedal it still winds up way to fast and way high. so i got to playing with the idle screw, and at one point its almost perfect, but barley a 1/4 turn higher and it wound up so high i was scrambling to try and cut the motor off.

and i dont know if its some how my fault and maybe i didnt tighten down the water pump pully right, or if i messed up with the a/c bracket, but yesterday after running for just a few moments and revving up that high it busted the water pump, and i double checked it on a new pump today, and it broke the top of the timing chain cover where the pump bolts on and warped the water pump shaft it self.

i still have the stock intake manifold and fuel rails, i suppose i might have to try putting the stock stuff back on and see if it still does it or cures it. i just really wanted to get this set up working because theres a set of 24lb injectors coming with an adjustable FPR, CAI and mass air meter for after a month or two of driving this new motor around. then i can just dyno tune the car with everything on it and i just have to do it the one time until its time for another motor or boost...
 

jrichker

StangNet's favorite TOOL
SN Certified Technician
Mar 10, 2000
27,461
2,794
234
75
Dublin GA
lowendmac.com
Recheck the firing order, The non HO engines use a different firing order, and the injectors pulse in accordance with the firing order. Use a HO computer with a non HO cam and several of the injectors pulse with the intake valve closed.

This doesn’t prove that the block has an HO cam. Some trucks evidently use a HO firing order
with a low lift cam. However, it will definitely prove that a cam can’t be HO because the firing order is wrong.


Remove the #1 & #3 spark plugs. Put your finger in #1 spark plug hole. Crank the engine over until you feel compression on #1 cylinder. Slowly turn the engine until the TDC mark and the timing pointer line up. Mark TDC on the balancer with chalk or paint. Put your finger in #3 spark plug hole and crank the engine 90 degrees. You should feel pressure trying to blow past your finger. If you do not feel pressure, repeat the process again. If you feel pressure, it is a HO engine.

No pressure the second time, remove spark plug #5. Put your finger in #1 spark plug hole. Crank the engine over until you feel compression on #1 cylinder. Put your finger in #5 spark plug hole and crank the engine 90 degrees. If you feel pressure now, the engine is not a HO model, no matter what it says on the engine.

Using a small carpenter or machinist square to mark the harmonic balancer off into 90 degree sections may be helpful here.

A 15/16 deep socket & breaker bar or ratchet may be used to turn the engine.

The HO firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.
Non HO firing order is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
attachment.php



Dumping the computer diagnostic codes on 86-95 Mustangs

Revised 19-May-2009 to update drawing for dumping the codes on 86-88 Mustangs with no check engine light.

Dump the codes and see what the computer says is wrong…Codes may be present in the computer even if the Check Engine light isn’t on.

Here's the way to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

Be sure to turn off the A/C, and put the transmission in neutral when dumping the codes. Fail to do this and you will generate a code 67 and not be able to dump the Engine Running codes.

Dumping the Engine Running codes: The procedure is the same, you start the engine with the test jumper in place. Be sure the A/C is off and the transmission is in neutral. You'll get an 11, then a 4 and the engine will speed up to do the EGR test. After the engine speed decreases back to idle, it will dump the engine running codes.

Here's the link to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

See Troublcodes.net Trouble Codes OBD & OBD2 Trouble Codes and Technical info & Tool Store. By BAT Auto Technical

B.jpg


F.jpg


If your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.

attachment.php


The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.

89 through 95 cars have a working Check Engine light. Watch it instead of using a test lamp.

attachment.php


The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.


WARNING!!! There is a single dark brown connector with a black/orange wire. It is the 12 volt power to the under the hood light. Do not jumper it to the computer test connector. If you do, you will damage the computer.

What to expect:
You should get a code 11 (two single flashes in succession). This says that the computer's internal workings are OK, and that the wiring to put the computer into diagnostic mode is good. No code 11 and you have some wiring problems.

Codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.

Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.

Alternate methods:
For those who are intimidated by all the wires & connections, see Actron® for what a typical hand scanner looks like. Normal retail price is about $30 or so at AutoZone or Wal-Mart.

Or for a nicer scanner see Digital Ford Code Reader (3145) – It has a 3 digit LCD display so that you don’t have to count flashes or beeps.. Cost is $30.
 

DrClaw7

New Member
Sep 10, 2010
9
0
0
Asheville, Nc
wow, im going to have to pull out the test light and try and see some codes. this car is supposed to be a 90, but the check engine light will not illuminate at all. even with the key on and the engine off like doing a state inspection it will not illuminate. and with the way this car has turned out, it looks like the motor was slapped together for a quick sale. the o2 sensor harness was not connected with the old motor. 3 of the fuel injectors have noticeably been replaced, the heads full of debris, and the MAP sensor on the fire wall was disconnected from both vacuum and the electronic connector. now i don't know if a mass air car should have the map sensor hooked up at all, but i assumed it was there for some reason. and with the indexing plate gone i can tell the motor has been out before. with the cut a/c lines and the debris it leads me to think junkyard engine. my guy at the machine shop asked how long and where there were sitting to get in that bad of shape, and i cleaned them up a little bit before i took them in...

now if i could figure out how to stop destroying water pumps....now with the diagrams i found when i first put the other motor together, i have it with HO firing order, but cylinder number 1 is in the top right position. i don't know if that would make any kind of a difference.

i should have know to manually test the cam, i was just really hoping not to have to pull that motor back apart. but also i couldnt think of why a different cam would cause the high revs like that. i mean this thing acts like it wants to jump of out the car when it spools up. im leaning towards o2 sensor or injectors, but everything was working with the old motor, and the longest i've had to wait in between pulling apart and putting back together was a day or 2 here and there waiting for machine shop, and parts to be sent...
 

DrClaw7

New Member
Sep 10, 2010
9
0
0
Asheville, Nc
ok so i fingered the motor and its got a HO cam. still just cant figure it out and i don't want to just start throwing parts at it. its acting like an injector is staying open or something. and with the o2 sensor unplugged on the old motor im thinking that might be it. so i just threw the stock manifold TB and rails on there to see if it still does it. if it runs with the stock stuff i am going to try everything one part at a time to see where the problem comes in. if i could get it to run long enough i would try to flash the check engine light, but i didnt get alot of time with it, and i got held up waiting on him to bring me the stock stuff
 

madspeed

Colonel Mustard
Founding Member
Nov 29, 1999
8,914
1,332
204
a van down by the river
What computer is in the car? There should be a white sticker inside the pass side door up by the hinges.
What mass air meter?
What size injectors?
Are they calibrated to each other??
 

jrichker

StangNet's favorite TOOL
SN Certified Technician
Mar 10, 2000
27,461
2,794
234
75
Dublin GA
lowendmac.com
The MAP/Baro sensor on Mass Air Cars vents to the open air.

Dump the codes per my previous post to find problems that are not so obivious... The engine does not need to be running to get the codes stored in memory.