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Discussion in '2005 - 2014 S-197 Mustang -General/Talk-' started by 351CJ, Dec 30, 2003.
"Regular Models" = volume models that they sell every year
"Special or Feature Models" = Model that is made for 1 or 2 years and then goes away for a few years or forever. Eg. 2001 Bullitt, 2003-2004 Mach1
From the news so far it sounds like there will be more options available on the 2005 - 2006 Mustang. Ford seems to be waking up to the fact that there is money to be made in personalizing cars, but it will never again be like it was in the 60's.
Make mine a Boss 351.
hardest part here would actually be convincing the EPA eco-freaks to let you build cars with 429's in them. otherwise, my dad + i would be investing in a big-inch stang like that...
How abou less V-10's and more V-8s?
A V8 has the same potential as a V-10, But sounds way, wayyyyy better.
A good lineup that I would like to see (long)
Here is the Mustang packages Ford should build. This is just my opinion, not fact, not intended to piss anyone off, just an idea that I have, and incidentally have wanted for about 10 years. this is somewhat compareable to what has already been posted here, but different, and more variable.
Options! Options! Options! Other cars have more options than the late model mustangs have had. The Early mustangs are a paradigm of American cars, and were very option-configurable. New ones are not. You get the three little models that Ford sells, and if you are not happy, then the after-market is your answer, at the cost of your warranty, in most cases. People should be able to build a car from the factory to their taste, and their budget.
Since the '05 Mustang is a re-awakening of the marque, it should fully return to it's foundation by being many cars to many people. That is what founded "Mustang." The new cars are very disappointing in their size, shape, weight, and build quality. Not to mention they are basically updated 78 Fairmonts underneath the skin. The reason the new car has double the torsional rigidity is that the current car is so flexible.
So here's how I see the new model breaking down: All model ranges, except "Track pkg" and Special Editions are available as "SportsRoof" coupes, or convertibles, Track package only with coupe body style, Special Edition depends on the yearly theme, but mostly coupes. The one universal change should be smaller or more sleek side mirrors, rather than those billboards on the show car.
Mustang (base model) MSRP ~$17,995 - highest production numbers
-Standard: 200hp 4.0 V6, 4spd auto or 5spd manual. 16" halibrand-style wheels, Electric windows and locks. cloth interior, plastic dash face panel.
-Additional Options: premium interior (basically up to GT specification) sound system, 5spd Automatic, Torsen or Bosch torque-bias Limited slip diff. (Live axle only) small fog-lights below the bumper. 17" wheels (from GT)
-Performance Package: 4.6 24-valve 300hp V8, 5spd Auto or tremec 5spd manual trans, mandatory GT brakes and spring/dampers. (similar to 87-93 LX 5.0) Base price with Perf. pkg and standard interior would be $19,995. There is your 300hp for under $20,000.
Mustang GT - MSRP ~$24,995 - mainline image and performance model.
-Standard: 300hp 24v V8, 5spd cloth or leather seats, premium interior trim, Aluminum Dash face panel, color-change gauges, etc. (refer to as GT spec.)
5spd automatic, or tremec 5spd manual trans, limited slip live rear axle. Grille-mounted fog-lights and GT appearance package. 17" 5-split spoke wheels. (look like concept car's wheels)
-Optional: t56 6spd transmission. Axle gears: 3:55, 3:73:1. Mach1000 stereo system. 18 inch Cragar-style wheels (see GT show-cars) Red, light Grey, or Blue interior Accents (See red interior on show car) in reference to the tri-color bar of the mustang emblem. Glass roof. (at least a glass sunroof if concept's glass roof is not feasible) Optional fog light delete, optional spoiler delete.
-RS Package: ~$1,500. Same as GT, same available options, with IRS and 6spd manual or 5spd auto standard. The RS Appearance package includes: RS insignias (rather than GT), wire mesh grille (think Jag S-type R), different air dam with lower fog-lights, smoother rocker panels and rear bumper. similar to SN95 Bullitt ground-effects. The theme of this package is to be a up-market sophisticated car to compete with 350z, G35, BMW 330Ci, RX8, with more horsepower, and lower price. The GT would be the main contender for the drag-race Camaro-fighting customers, and sticks to a live axle. An RS Automatic would be a car for someone who might otherwise buy a Mercedes C320 Coupe.
-Track package: Factory race options. Optional 5.0 DOHC engine. SVT brakes. Lightweight Sheet-moulded compound fenders, cowl-induction hood, trunk lid. Standard 18" wheels. Standard 5spd auto or manual, optional 6spd. Less sound-deadening, fog light delete. optional AC-delete, rear seat delete. Factory lightweight GT (drag pack) **Can be paired with RS Package for IRS and 6spd in a lightweight autocross/road racing spec.
These would be build to order ONLY. they would cost more and would be made in limited numbers on demand. No dealer stock, quite possibly built by SVT.
Mustang Special Edition MSRP - ~$28-29,995. Yearly special models in limited numbers, like Boss 5.0 or Boss 5.4, Mach 1, Bullitt, etc. Instant collectors items.
5.0 DOHC (~350hp) Standard, Manual trans only. Big brakes, lowered springs, Live Axle or IRS, 5 or 6spd Manual trans depending on theme of that year's special edition. Custom paint and body details depending on theme. Full interior options standard. Possibly "Track pack" options similar to GT/RS.
SVT Mustang. (Possibly commemorative Shelby nameplate like GT350, could be Cobra, but I wouldn't mind if they went away from that name on the mustang-based cars) - ~$34,995, limited production. A step above RS and Special Editions,
Supercharged 5.0 DOHC engine with more than 400hp. IRS and 6 spd standard. Bilstein or Koni dampers, lower springs, larger anti-roll bars. Body-colored Dash face panel, special seats (possibly Recaros) gauges, and trim. Optional rear-seat delete.
SVT appearance package would include a grille with center-mounted foglights (68 Shelby) deeper front air dam and splitter, flat floor-panels with ground effects. rear diffuser, and central exit exhaust. lower rocker panels, functional brake ducts in front, and side-scoops, Leading edge ducts in hood (like Concept car) with cold air intake, heat extractor ducts in rear of hood (69 shelby) Horizontal tail-lights in rear, (like concept and all Shelbys) and louvered or filled in quarter windows, duck-tail spoiler. Optional tape stripes. Offered in charcoal with silver stripes. (Eleanor) and 19" halibrand-style or Magnum500 style wheels. This car would be the figure-head, and compete with the GTO and approach the Corvette. Would provide an in-house hot-rod, to compete with specialty cars like Saleen, Steeda, and Roush, which may end up going up-market, firmly into Corvette territory.
That would provide 6 distinct models (counting v6 and base v8 separately, GT and RS pkg separatel, not counting track pkg cars separately.) and would be the most diverse RWD sports coupe on the market, and the only one that really caters to ameteur road AND drag racers with a factory lightweight, and to younger buyers with a V8 5spd base model. Options could get expensive, but the base model and GT should have good standard features for their prices. Each model may see slightly fewer sales, but averaged together, I think it would sell over all very, very well by catering to many different buyers, much as the original did.
as for me, I would take a theoretical Mustang RS 6spd (because of the IRS), or a full-on Shelby GT350, depending on cash being tight or not.
Have fun dreaming. Maybe It'll come true.
Sounds like you've put a lot of thought into this SportsCarFan. A couple data points I've discovered since starting this topic, to bring things closer to reality.
I read somewhere where Ford said that there are no plans to put the 5.0L Cammer (DOHC) into a production vehicle. I belive the specific words were something to the effect of "the 5.0 Cammer is a FRPP only product".
I heard rumor that Ford was working on a 5.0L engine, but it is different than the Cammer. Specifically it would have a smaller bore and longer stroke than the Cammer.
As far as the RS name goes, isn't that a GM tag? I can't recall that ever being used on a Ford product, but I thought a friend of mine had a Camaro RS a number of years ago. Ford could resurect the REG option, "Rallaye Equipment Group" that it had in the early 70's. In any case, I agree, I sure would like to see IRS available on the GT.
There have been several rumors that the next SVT Cobra (if it's still called that) will get some variation of the 5.4L DOHC SC engine from the Ford GT, with close to 500 HP.
i'd love to see the 5.0. it needs some more low-end balls, the 4.6 is weak there. id be all for the smaller bore, longer stroke approach
Because of the 3V heads, new 2 stage manifold, VCT, other improvements and the 3.55 stock rear end (5 speed), I'd expect the 2005 GT to have a lot more low end grunt than what you're used to with the 2V 4.6.
But as far as the #'s I heard for the 5.0L (302 CID), they were about 3.60 bore x 3.70 stroke. Interestingly the 3.70" stroke is the same as the 6.4L, 390 CID V10 in the Shelby Cobra.
However, 302 CID is only a 7.5% increase over the 281, so that would only be about 325 HP & 335 lb ft. So unless Ford is hell bent on making another Boss 302, I say why not go all the way to 5.4L and have 350 HP and 370 lb. ft.
My guess as to what we might see.
GT 3V 281 Live axle 5 speed etc
GT350 a premium fuel version of the GT with 320 HP 5 speed maybe we might see a set of hedders on this version also.live axle IRS otional
GT500 3V 5.4L V8 350-370HP live axle IRS optional T56
BOSS 3or4 Valve 351 or 390 V10 400-450HP IRS T56 I believe they will use the 427 V10 concepts motor in the Shelby Cobra instead of the 390 if so we may get the 390 instead of the 351
I'd be quite happy if this was the lineup.
RS is not exclusive GM tag. But I think you are right that it hasn't been used on the Mustang. It was used on the Mercury Capri in the 80's.
I have to admit I got the idea of an RS package on top of the GT model from the RS-SS version from the early camaro.
The name is really up for grabs, I just want to see an upscale version of the Mustang GT in regular production, with IRS and a 6spd (some people do more than drag race, and cruise the chicks on main street.) Those specifications should not require a special model, or a 30k+ pricetag.
I would also love to see a factory lightweight racer package, for both SCCA style road racing, as well as the quarter mile.
The club racer packages, Special Edition mustangs, and SVT/Shelby cars could theoretically all be rotated through a niche assembly line, like the current Cobras are. That would leave the base models, GT and "RS-upscale" models could be churned out on the regular assembly line for dealer stock and customer orders.
personally I think there definately needs to be a model between the v6 and GT. it would seriously fill a gap that would allow more people to buy v8's. there's a lot of people out there that don't want a v6 but can't afford a gt. basically would be the $20k v8 model everyone is talkin about...v8 in a v6 shell with very few options. that combined with some higher end OPTIONS (not models) for the GT would work really well. I really don't think they need more than 3 main models, not including cobras and special editions
what is vct? and how would 3v heads help low end, wouldn't they decrease it?
i agree though, i'd love to see a 5.4 in there; probably it's smog laws that prevent them from making it in a production mustang. a 5.0 might have an easier time passing emissions, and would give them room to improve it to 5.4 if they could get it to pass smog later
SportscarFan has a good idea for the "Special Edition." I'd take one of those for that price, ESPECIALLY if it's got the Boss name or Bullitt name. I'd love 350hp NA, a lower stance, 5.4L w/more low end torque, and full options for around $30K. I'd be all over that in a heartbeat! Of course, it'd better have a functional hood scoop, so no one mistakes it for anything but what it is.
No matter what, Ford must build another Bullitt model with the new body style. Priceless!!!
VCT = Variable cam timing. It adjusts the cam's relationship to the crankshaft allowing the valves to be opened early or late to better optimize airflow into the cylinders at low & high RPM's as well as for light and heavy engine loads. It broadens the torque curve as well as reduces emissions. A perfect example of this is when they added VCT to the Lincoln LS 3.9L V8. Peak torque @ 4500 RPM went up by 17 lb. ft, while torque @ 3000 RPM increased by 30 lb ft.
3V - having 2 intake valves and the resultant larger intake ports would normally reduce low end power due to lower air velocity, however the 3V heads and new 2 stage intake manifold are designed to work better over a wider RPM range.
5.4 - Emissions would not have anything to do with putting the 5.4 in a Mustang. What could keep the 5.4 out of the Stang is fuel economy and not being able to put the engine in from the bottom as they do on the assembly line.
oh ok, so VCT's like vtech or whatever honda calls it?
i'll take your word on the emissions thing, i have never had to deal with that stuff since all our cars are smog-exempt
You'll never see Ford produce no more than 4 Mustang models in one year. Base V6, GT, 1 limited edition model, and the SVT Cobra. Boss Shinoda, Shelby, Saleen, Roush will probably come up with their own version, but use a mustang production car to start with. Ford will not throw that much money into the Mustang when the Mustang isn't their #1 selling car (Taurus). Base V6 should have around 250hp-270hp ( Duratec 3.5L ), GT around 320hp-350hp (SOHC 4.6 3 Valve ), 1 limited edition model 375hp-420hp(Supercharged DOHC 4.6L, 4 valve) and the SVT Cobra 450hp-500hp ( Supercharged 5.4L 4 Valve). Give the Limited Edition and Cobra the IRS and keep the Base V6 and GT Live Axel for cost measures. All should come with a convertible option so you don't have a huge gap between the GT and the Cobra. I think if they would have given the Mach 1 a convertible look, they would have sold more Machs. And "Blah, Blah, Blah" on those who say "Well, Ford never made a Convertible Mach 1". Start a new trend then.
It is not the same system. Hondas Vtec uses 2 cam lobes the Ford system has a single cam lobe but varies the timing.
ok, i understand now. thanks! interesting stuff...sucks for us backyard mechanics though, even more than it already does
Amen to backyard mechanics.
My only comment, why forget Shelby? Why not give Shelby the credit he's due and let him finish out his career (and life) where he belongs--with the Blue Oval! He deserves to see a true Mustang Cobra wearing his badges and the Shelby GT500 with it, not SVT beside the name he built. Forgo the SVT Cobra and bring back the GT500!
Again, me just stirring up trouble.