How much power will a stock 4.6 handle?

[Thunder Road]

If you are going to but a blower on I would spend the 2 grand for a forged crank along with forged rods and pistons.
Its just not worth taking the chance to me.

 

[Ottawa05Stang]

So let's see if I've got this right...

Hi all,

I've been following this thread with great interest as I was planning to SC my slightly modified 05 (Steeda CAI, under drive pulleys and magno flow exhaust) when the snow melts in the spring and my baby comes out from hibernation. The general consensus is that if I go with a low psi boost twin screw Saleen and end up at 400 to 420 rwhp I'll probably be okay with a stock motor? Or should I look at forged internals for any type of SC install regardless of the power/boost ratio?

One more question, even with a low psi boost am I increasing the compression and by doing so will I be okay with a 94 Octane fuel to meet that increased compression? I know this a newbie question but my knowledge base is firmly locked in the 70"s and I am not knowledgeable enough yet on what the 05's computer can do yet..

Thanks to all and what an interesting thread this has been..

 

[Motorhead6T5]

Hi all,

I've been following this thread with great interest as I was planning to SC my slightly modified 05 (Steeda CAI, under drive pulleys and magno flow exhaust) when the snow melts in the spring and my baby comes out from hibernation. The general consensus is that if I go with a low psi boost twin screw Saleen and end up at 400 to 420 rwhp I'll probably be okay with a stock motor? Or should I look at forged internals for any type of SC install regardless of the power/boost ratio?

One more question, even with a low psi boost am I increasing the compression and by doing so will I be okay with a 94 Octane fuel to meet that increased compression? I know this a newbie question but my knowledge base is firmly locked in the 70"s and I am not knowledgeable enough yet on what the 05's computer can do yet..

Thanks to all and what an interesting thread this has been..

You should be fine with the saleen at the stock boost level(4psi). And down the road if you get forged internals you can change the pulley for more boost.

 

[Motorhead6T5]

please excuse the newb question, but how much does a new block go for that could handle say 500+ hp? and is that all you would need or would you need to replace pistons and rods too?

Forged shortblocks typicaly start in the 3k range. The actual stock block is fine,I believe you could get away with running stock crank and forged rods and pistons at that power level. Above that I think you would be looking at forged cranks.

 

[cleveland]

if it never and i mean NEVER sees detonation and you dont hardly drive it hard and it has a realy safe tune I have seen them make almost 500 rwhp reliably .

Though this guy represents "A Respected Tuner", I wouldnt take his word on much for the 05+ GTs.

So many more reputable people have stated that 450rwhp is almost too much, borderline reckless in other words. Controlling detonation is not the key, the Connecting Rods arent strong enough to hold that level of power. A safe tune is not going to add protection against poor metallurgy in these 3v engines.

Some motors may withstand 500rwhp (surely not for a long time), but most will not hold together for long. Try yours out at that level of performance and take the risk and report back. Most people that own these cars cant afford a new engine or attempt to explain to a Ford Service Writer that their engine just blew up all of a sudden for no known reason.

I know you are in the business of making power to the customers who desire it but it would be nice if you shared the concern for a potential customer's engine here on the forums.

I've posted enough already but if you want power I dont suggest anything over 450, back it down to 400-425 to be more on the safe side of things. I dont make money sharing my opinion, I just care for those who represent the hobby.

-Dan

 

[iowabowhunter]

Clevelend,
Are you talking 400-425 at the wheels or at the the flywheel? I was thinking about going with a Roush or a Saleen but down the road after I upgrade the shortblock do you think upgrading these two units to a higher psi would result in more performance? Or are they designed to be more efficient at this low of a pressure?

 

[Moondog]

I think that you can get a good feeling for the capabilities of the 3V motor by looking to Saleen & Roush and seeing what they are willing to do to the car. They both make products that they have to stand behind through a warranty. If the motors were going to pop shortly after the sale - profits sink via warranty repairs and word gets around further hurting sales. There is a margin of +/- (x) HP for these motors. I'll bet Saleen & Roush have a better idea of what it is than most through there R&D efforts.

 

[smokinciv]

Lets remember men horsepower doesnt cost = reliability does!!!! If you wanna go fast its gonna cost you!!!! I spent 20g on engine alone!!!! Yeah im a fool its a street car!!!!

 

[Edbert]

Considering the price of these blowers, it seems pretty cheap to buy a set of new rods and a girdle.

Am I right to assume they are the weak link or are cranks cracking?

 

[cleveland]

for reference I will almost always post rear wheel horsepower numbers

bhp=power at the flywheel
rwhp=power at the rear tires

-Dan

 

[1fastz]

Though this guy represents "A Respected Tuner", I wouldnt take his word on much for the 05+ GTs.

So many more reputable people have stated that 450rwhp is almost too much, borderline reckless in other words. Controlling detonation is not the key, the Connecting Rods arent strong enough to hold that level of power. A safe tune is not going to add protection against poor metallurgy in these 3v engines.

Some motors may withstand 500rwhp (surely not for a long time), but most will not hold together for long. Try yours out at that level of performance and take the risk and report back. Most people that own these cars cant afford a new engine or attempt to explain to a Ford Service Writer that their engine just blew up all of a sudden for no known reason.

I know you are in the business of making power to the customers who desire it but it would be nice if you shared the concern for a potential customer's engine here on the forums.

I've posted enough already but if you want power I dont suggest anything over 450, back it down to 400-425 to be more on the safe side of things. I dont make money sharing my opinion, I just care for those who represent the hobby.

-Dan

Are you just plain dumb or that one sided against anything I post ?

I clearly said anything over 450 rwhp is playing with fire and that i could count on one hand the number of cars i have seen live long lives past that number.

and that i could not begin to count the number that i saw blow up at that power level and beyond.
I plainly stated 450 rwhp is still at the edge .. 400-420 rwhp would be the limit with any kind of longevity in mind.

Also ou are posting your opinion based on what you have read etc.
I am posting mine based on over 100 mdoular cars with blowers we have dyno tuned and actualy worked on not read a post about.

anything more then the stock boost from any of the available blower kits IS going to cost you a short block eventualy on the 05 they just make to much power with boost for thier own good.

even the stock procharger and intercooled paxton and vortech kits are at the edge of power that these engines can reliably make. Especialy if you beat on your car alot.

 

[nycstang37]

well, lets look at it this way, the 05 saleen extreme is 550 hp i believe, but tehy do have forged internals. on saleens website it says the whole motor is built in house, so im assuming it cant go over that number.

 

[Edbert]

for reference I will almost always post rear wheel horsepower numbers

bhp=power at the flywheel
rwhp=power at the rear tires

I always thought BHP was brake-horsepower. For some non-intuitive reason brake horsepower is measured at the tailshaft. Flywheel horsepower is called FWHP.

 

[300bhp/ton]

for reference I will almost always post rear wheel horsepower numbers

bhp=power at the flywheel
rwhp=power at the rear tires

-Dan

Dan, sorry but you are so far off base your not even in the same country, lol. Here's my take on it, but it's still far more complex.

lol, it does seem to be an American thing not to understand BHP. Not a dig, but an observation as I have had this discussion twice this week already.

HP or Horse Power is basically the measure. It is an imperial unit, and originated by a horse pulling X weight over Y distance and time. James Watt invented the system to rate his steam engines with. So a 6hp engine would do the work of 6 horses.

There are many types of horse power, some are a measurement and some a calculation. But HOW they are derived is important.

To find out the horse power of an engine we use a 'brake' device, hence the B as this denominates the type of horse power we are referring to.

BHP is a calculated measurement, this is done by measuring torque.

HP = torque (lb ft) x rpm / 5252

So, to mearly state you car has HP is actually very inaccurate. As dyno's, engine and chassis such as Mustang and Dynojet are all BRAKE devices.

Once you have derived the BHP yes you can indicate WHERE the measurement was taken.

Most common is the flywheel, but usually this is not stated on it's own but it IS noted, I'll explain in a bit.

But you could also derive BHP at the propshaft (many boats are), the wheel hubs (such as chassis dyno's like a Rototest Dyno) or indeed at the driven wheels themself.

Thus for the sake of correctness rwhp, should really be rwbhp.

rw = rear wheels, the WHERE
b = brake the type and the HOW
hp = the unit

Now the reason you don't see manufactures claim fwbhp (flywheel), is because they also state SAE Net.

SAE Net is a standard dictated by the Society of Automotive Engineers. This dictates exactly HOW and WHERE the reading should be taken, it also covers such things as engine ancilliary devices, fuel grade, astmospheric conditions and so on.

SAE Net is ALWAYS measured at the flywheel.

So remember, when referring to HP in terms of automotive use, it should ALWAYS be BHP, then any addtions you wish to add, to denominate where the measurement was derived.

As I said there are many types of HP:

ihp - this is indicated HP, and was commonly used in the 19 Century. It is a calculation using cylinder pressure of steam engines. This will give a very different number to that of BHP, yet it is still HP

dbhp - drawbar horsepower. This is for trains as a rule. This is a MEASURED as opposed to a CALCULATED like BHP is. Basically a train pulls a special carriage which meausres the amount of pull. I think this would be intersting for cars to be measured by.

RAC HP - This was used in Britiain in the early 20th Century, it is calculated by measuring the internal dimensions of the engine and certain assumptions of efficency. I think following this logic a ZR1 Corvette would only produce ~120RAC HP

There are also many other types as well. Plus there are metric equiverlents too. A metirc HP is still a horse lifting X weight over Y distance and time. But it uses metres and KG, instead of feet and pounds.

1 Metric HP is slightly smaller than 1 Imperial HP.

Metric HP may still be listed as HP or commonly as PS.

Bascially it all gets rather confusing, and there really is nothing else quite like it.

The closest comparison I can think of is money.

What is $1.00?

Well it would depend on the type of dollar, as Australian, Canadian and American dollars all have different monetary values.

$1.00US has a different value and thus spending power to $1.00Aus eventhough they are both the same physical number.

 

[PDXStangDude]

Instead of starting a new thread I'll add to this one.

What % is lost from the flywheel to rear wheels? I have heard the numbers vary depending on your tranny (auto vs. manual). 15% sticks in my head for some reason.

 

[Edbert]

There's an entire TFH in that question...

I have heard anywhere from 12-25% power loss depending on which transmission/rear-end/brakes/tires/bearings one uses.

There's also an entire school of thought that it is not a percentage. Meaning a 500fwhp motor may loose 100hp or 20% in front of a drivetrain whil a 250hp motor will only lose 80hp which is actually a higher percentage.

Myself, I do not claim to know.

 

[PDXStangDude]

There's an entire TFH in that question...

I have heard anywhere from 12-25% power loss depending on which transmission/rear-end/brakes/tires/bearings one uses.

There's also an entire school of thought that it is not a percentage. Meaning a 500fwhp motor may loose 100hp or 20% in front of a drivetrain whil a 250hp motor will only lose 80hp which is actually a higher percentage.

Myself, I do not claim to know.

Uhhh.... whats TFH?

 

[Edbert]

IIRC

TFH = Thread From Hell
(bunch of know-it-all types arguing on the intardnet)

IMHO

YMMV

 

[mhanksii]

Uhhh.... whats TFH?

I agree what's TFH? I'm in the military where everything has to have at least one acronym to exist and was a auto mechanic before and still haven't seen this one in relation to motors and HP.

 

[Excepcion13]

Help for Your "Little Brother"

I have been reading this thread with much interest. I recently had my 2006 V6 turbocharged and it is making quite a bit of power now. The V6 has forged rods but the pistons are the same material as the GT's. Does anyone know the HP rating on the pistons themselves? Can anyone help me out here? Are GTs blowing pistons or rods? Thank you!!

P.S. Telling me I should have bought a GT is not the help I am looking for!!