Innovate Lc-1 And G2 Gauge Question

[trinity_gt]

Just installed an LC-1 controller, WBO2 and G2 gauge in my 02 GT.

Everything seems to work fine except once in a while after an engine start the gauge needle does not move off '8'. The gauge cycles after starting, returns to 8 and just lies there. The controller LED is on solidly which, according to the manual, indicates the LC-1 is operating normally.

If I turn off the ignition, wait a second or two then turn the ignition on, the gauge will cycle, return to 8 and, after a few seconds, move up normally.

I've got the WBO2 in the factory H-pipe's front, driver-side bung and am using the LC-1's narrow-band simulator to drive the PCM input. With the gauge lying at '8' for a few minutes the car was driving fine and I didn't see an SES so I'm thinking the LC-1 is working okay (at least the NB sim output...)

Has anyone else seen this behavior?

 

[Noobz347]

Trinity... you need to feed the gauge with the narrow band output that you're using for the PCM.

Your gauge should he a 1 volt input.

It sounds like you're trying to send raw WB signal straight to the gauge. The gauge is not capable of processing that input.

 

[trinity_gt]

Trinity... you need to feed the gauge with the narrow band output that you're using for the PCM.

Your gauge should he a 1 volt input.

It sounds like you're trying to send raw WB signal straight to the gauge. The gauge is not capable of processing that input.

I don't think this is correct.

My G2 instruction sheet indicates that the green signal wire on the gauge is to be connected "to the LC-1's BROWN wire." It also states that the "gauge is setup to work with the Innovate Motorsports' factory wideband output of 0v = 7.35 A/F and 5v = 22.39 A/F." The LC-1 manual states that the "LC-1's analog output 2 is factory programmed to provide a linear output between 0V and 5V for an AFR of 7.35 to 22.39." Analog out 2 is the brown wire.

Like I said, the gauge operates normally when it works. During cruise it flits around 14-15.5:1 At 8psi it's down at 11:1 and when the PCM goes into fuel cut during extended decel the gauge reads up to 18:1. If the voltage input range was being saturated (i.e. the gauge wants 0-1V and I'm feeding it 0-5V) I wouldn't see this otherwise correct operation.

Curious: Where did you read that the gauge is supposed to be 0-1V instead of 0-5V?

 

[Noobz347]

I don't think this is correct.

My G2 instruction sheet indicates that the green signal wire on the gauge is to be connected "to the LC-1's BROWN wire." It also states that the "gauge is setup to work with the Innovate Motorsports' factory wideband output of 0v = 7.35 A/F and 5v = 22.39 A/F." The LC-1 manual states that the "LC-1's analog output 2 is factory programmed to provide a linear output between 0V and 5V for an AFR of 7.35 to 22.39." Analog out 2 is the brown wire.

Like I said, the gauge operates normally when it works. During cruise it flits around 14-15.5:1 At 8psi it's down at 11:1 and when the PCM goes into fuel cut during extended decel the gauge reads up to 18:1. If the voltage input range was being saturated (i.e. the gauge wants 0-1V and I'm feeding it 0-5V) I wouldn't see this otherwise correct operation.

Curious: Where did you read that the gauge is supposed to be 0-1V instead of 0-5V?

The gauge that I run is a Greddy analog gauge that is fed from the output port of my LM-1. It converts the wide-band signal to simulate a narrow-band signal. As far as I recollect, it's a 0 to 1volt output. I only assumed that your gauge was setup the same way.

If your gauge is designed the read the wideband directly, I'm not sure why you'd need the LC-1 unless you wanted it to data-log.

 

[trinity_gt]

The gauge that I run is a Greddy analog gauge...

Ah, I see.

If your gauge is designed the read the wideband directly, I'm not sure why you'd need the LC-1 unless you wanted it to data-log.

Well, the LC-1 is still needed to control the current pump in the WBO2S. The sensor itself is of no use without such a controller. I think that some gauges may include a controller (e.g. AEM 30-4100) but in Innovate's case the controller is the LC-1 (or the LM-1 you've got...) The G2 has no such control capabilities.

 

[Noobz347]

The outputs on my LM-1 are programmable. Perhaps yours are too?

You might be able to set the dwell rate and buffer. Just a thought.

The only other thing that I can think of is that they were pretty specific about mentioning how the voltage reading comes from the voltage difference between the signal output wire and whatever ground you're using. If that sounds like possible problem area, you might look into switching to a different ground location.

 

[trinity_gt]

The outputs on my LM-1 are programmable. Perhaps yours are too?

Yes, they are but I've left them in the factory default configuration.

You might be able to set the dwell rate and buffer. Just a thought.

There is a control in LM Programmer that allows one to configure the update rate of the narrow band output. You can select instantaneous or 1/12, 1/6 or 1/3-second update rates. I've left it alone and figure I'll only touch this setting if I get a SES light indicating some sort of O2 sensor error on B2.

The only other thing that I can think of is that they were pretty specific about mentioning how the voltage reading comes from the voltage difference between the signal output wire and whatever ground you're using. If that sounds like possible problem area, you might look into switching to a different ground location.

Yeah, I read that too. I have two grounds, both tied to the metal of the center console stack (screws beside the driver's footwell.) One ties the main LC-1 system ground, heater return and return for the calibration switch/LED and the other serves as the return for the gauges (illumination for both and power for the G2.) Both grounds are clean and tight and located within about a inch of each other.

I'm thinking there's an issue in the G2 itself but am not sure. When I turn the key on the needle cycles from '8' to '18' and back again. If I start the car while this is occurring the needle stops back at '8'. If I wait for this initial sweep to finish and then proceed to start, the needle sweeps again. I've got the switched 12V power coming from fuse 20 and I guess it's switched off when the key is turned to 'start.' I wonder if the repeated power cycle puts the G2 in a strange state (or the LC-1 for that matter since it is getting power from the same switched source; but when the gauge is inoperative, the LED is on solidly so I think the LC-1 is fine...)

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Had the Innovate stuff on my last car. Nice stuff and works grea for a while, but I'll be frank with ya...that wide band sensor that comes with the kit doesn't last long. I didn't get a year out of mine before it was toast and neither did my buddy. I was so sick of seeing the error light flash, I just stuffed the bulb under my dash and covered it in electrical tape. lol

 

[trinity_gt]

Had the Innovate stuff on my last car. Nice stuff and works grea for a while, but I'll be frank with ya...that wide band sensor that comes with the kit doesn't last long. I didn't get a year out of mine before it was toast and neither did my buddy. I was so sick of seeing the error light flash, I just stuffed the bulb under my dash and covered it in electrical tape. lol

Interesting. Innovate uses the Bosch LSU4.2 sensor which is the same sensor that came factory on my 2002 Volkswagen GTI 1.8T. I've never had reliability issues with it on that car.

Q for you: Where did you have the sensor mounted and in what orientation?

O2 sensor reliability and longevity can be adversely affected if they are not installed at the proper angle and orientation or if they are exposed to excessive heat. Fuel additives (e.g. octane booster) can also adversely affect them quickly. I have to think that repeated reliability problems in a particular case point to some sort of isolated issue unique to that case when the sensor itself has a proven record everywhere else.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I welded the bung in 6" downstream of the collector in the 2-o'clock position. Exactly how the instructions said to install it.

Now....I had on occasion (about 4 instances) mixed a little leaded race gas in with my pump gas for track events, but I'd hate to think that just a couple of tanks of race fuel would burn it out in less than a year? It doesn't speak much for the robustness of the sensor. After all...the stock O2 sensors lasted 10-years and 200,000km and the ones I installed after that were still working fine when I sold the car 6-years later.

 

[vertigasen]

I had almost the exact same problem. I have the LC-1 and was running the XD-16 gauge. It just connected to the output port on the LC-1 so that was simple. I went with a new gauge setup and used an Speedhut wideband gauge. First, it wouldnt do anything. I tracked that down to a bad momentary switch I have on the ground side of the LC-1 (what is used for calibration). After that, it would just go to 8 and sit. I didnt have the gauge and LC-1 grounded together, but after I checked all the wiring, and moved the ground so that they shared a common ground....it worked.

It may not be the same, but that is what happened to mine.

 

[trinity_gt]

I had almost the exact same problem. I have the LC-1 and was running the XD-16 gauge. It just connected to the output port on the LC-1 so that was simple. I went with a new gauge setup and used an Speedhut wideband gauge. First, it wouldnt do anything. I tracked that down to a bad momentary switch I have on the ground side of the LC-1 (what is used for calibration). After that, it would just go to 8 and sit. I didnt have the gauge and LC-1 grounded together, but after I checked all the wiring, and moved the ground so that they shared a common ground....it worked.

It may not be the same, but that is what happened to mine.

Thanks v. I'll look into moving the grounds together and see what happens.

 

[Noobz347]

Heya... let us know what the final fix ends up being.

 

[trinity_gt]

Heya... let us know what the final fix ends up being.

Will do

 

[trinity_gt]

Well, tried co-locating the grounds to the same point and no joy. Still experiencing the goofiness after start now and again...