Installed the 75mm TB

[Rootus]

tmoss

I understand what you are saying. It just seems GTJake has a clear advantage and with all the combo's listed being so similar, I am looking for the differences.

The more info, the better, you agree?

Jake certainly has a clear advantage -- he took his time, and did a *lot* of research before making any decisions. He took the best ideas from various people, and put them together into a very good combo that is very well thought out and put together. He also put effort into the little details, like porting the lower intake for that little extra gain. That is why he makes such good power. I'm impatient, so I just throw money at the engine hoping it will help...

Dave

 

[Quick5pnt0]

I never believe Internet myths...nor what people say. I follow results from what I've seen with my own eyes. Sounds almost like your going by what people are "saying" on other boards. If they have proven results, then that is another thing.

I distinctly remember an article from MM&FF that showed a H/C/I car with a 65mm and they had it on a dyno, then swapped on a 70mm with no other changeds. Zero change in HP and maybe half a foot-lb. lost in torque. They said a 75mm would of produced even worse results.

I'll try to dig up that article and find it.

I also remember reading this. I don't remember what type of heads/intake/cam they had but i distictly remember that anything over 65 was losing torque without any power gains. Thats not to say that with his combo it will do the same thing. The only way to know for sure is to do a dyno run before and after.

Another thing.... Has anyone here EVER done a dyno test of a before and after the fox TB conversion? (using the same size tb/maf of course) I just cannot believe that it will add any HP at all compared to the stock setup. I know you are getting rid of the bend in the stock setup but all you are doing is trading it for what looks to be an even greater bend in the fox setup.

One last thing.... Keep an eye on those fernco elbows. I used one on my last car (92gt) to make a cold air kit and after an hour drive i opened the hood and the fernco elbow was very soft and mushy from the heat. I used to always wonder if it would suck in on itself under WOT?

 

[zenboy99]

Twittmer, just so you know, my cam has about 10 degrees less duration then the majority of AFR/FTI cams on this forum, and about the same lift, sometimes smaller. My car is a daily driver with 166,000 miles on a stock shortblock.

 

[Rootus]

Another thing.... Has anyone here EVER done a dyno test of a before and after the fox TB conversion? (using the same size tb/maf of course) I just cannot believe that it will add any HP at all compared to the stock setup.

Ask me in a few weeks. Right now I have a Pro-M 75mm MAF, 65mm FMS throttle body, and the 94/95 elbow. I'm in the process of switching to a 75mm Accufab throttle body (fox style) and 80mm Pro-M MAF. I haven't changed a single other thing, and I have dyno numbers for the current setup. I will take it back to the dyno as soon as I make these changes to see what if anything improved.

Dave

 

[twittmer]

Twittmer, just so you know, my cam has about 10 degrees less duration then the majority of AFR/FTI cams on this forum, and about the same lift, sometimes smaller. My car is a daily driver with 166,000 miles on a stock shortblock.

zenboy99 - thanks for the info! it is helpful to hear about successful combo's.

 

[twittmer]

Oh and either way i'd still like to see those dyno numbers anyway, so please post them up when you get it done!

agreed! let's see those dyno #'s HairyCanary.

 

[Quick5pnt0]

The problem is that although your dyno tests might show an increase in power it doesn't mean it IS the fox conversion because you are also going to a bigger TB and MAF. It doesn't mean that the fox conversion doesnt have anything to do with the increase in hp, but it doesn't prove it either.
That's all i'm trying to say is that most people who change over from one to the other they usually go with at least a bigger TB, and possibly a bigger MAF too. I'd like to find somebody who has did the swap without any other changes.

 

[zenboy99]

Just for future reference, there is a company near my hometown that is going to make billet throttle bodies 65, 70 and 75mm for our 94-95 Mustangs. 95BLBVert is the guys name on stangnet. He wants me to do the R&D dyno work when he's finished with the throttle bodies. he didn't give a specific date, but he did say they'd be done this year. If it happens I'll be sure to post all the dyno results.

I'm also curious to see what all our cars would dyno with an RPM upper, I've been looking for one on E-bay, but people are getting alot of money for them. I know alot of people have switched back to a Performer from the RPM because of the low-end torque issue, but it would be nice to drop one on for a little testing.

 

[Quick5pnt0]

Oh and either way i'd still like to see those dyno numbers anyway, so please post them up when you get it done!

 

[GTJake]

Woah. Get home from work and it turns into this...

Anyways, I could really careless if anybody thinks the fox TB swap is bogus or if my TB is way too big. It doesn't matter to me. I would much rather take the advice of someone who lives by the slogan, "Talk is cheap! Take it to the track and PROVE your point!" I know my track times are nothing spectacular, but it has a long way to go

I was just trying to put up a step by step method on how to do the swap, since I've been getting PM's from different people who had questions about it. If you guys think my TB is too big and that the fox setup doesn't do squat then great, that's your opinion. I have no proof it does anything either. I just know I would much rather listen to a guy that has years of experiance buiding and racing cars than a bunch of people on the internet that buy into alot of misinformation.

This is not intended at anyone in particular. Also, if you think the dyno that I was on is wack, then greg@berkley is dyno'ing at the exact same place I did this Saturday. He has a very similar combo, so we'll see.

Here's a quote from someone on the corral and Ed replying to it. I think it pretty much sums it up.

There have been countless numbers of tests showing that putting a huge 75mm throttle body on a mildly modified Naturally Aspirated motor slows down in the 1/4.

Thank God in the real world (not in magazine tests) the opposite is true! Especially when the package is designed correctly..

Gotta love the blunt honesty of Ed


Jake

 

[94DreamGT]

I guess when it comes down to it, dyno numbers really don't mean much without real world track times backing them. This has been proven most admirably by Paul (KillerCanary) who despite not hitting 300rwhp, has set the bar for the rest of us. It also goes to show that it is not peak numbers either, but area under the curve as someguys have already mentioned which translates into more power throughout the whole 1/4 mile run. Just as Ed says..."Take it to the Track".

I hope Jake picks up even more with his 75mm TB and Fox Upper Intake setup...it would show that these do work. I have yet to see them produce results though, that's the only reason I'm being skeptical as of this point. No sense in arguing...I believe we've all been through that stupid arguement before enough times (Thumper heads ring a bell anyone???)

BTW...nice write up Jake. If enough evidence ever comes out showing this swap produces enough meaningful power...I would use this tutorial as my guide for a conversion.

 

[Quick5pnt0]

Anyways, I could really careless if anybody thinks the fox TB swap is bogus or if my TB is way too big. It doesn't matter to me. I would much rather take the advice of someone who lives by the slogan, "Talk is cheap! Take it to the track and PROVE your point!"

LOL
I think that's basically what everyone (including me) is talking about. I never said that the fox TB swap didn't add power, nor did i say that about adding the 75mm TB. All i'm saying is as you put it "Talk is cheap! Take it to the track and PROVE your point!"

 

[GTJake]

I'm working on it...

Cars don't become fast overnight or the first time you take them to the track. I guess I'll just go to the track and PROVE my point.

Jake

 

[Quick5pnt0]

WTF? Has anyone noticed that twittmer quoted me at 6:49 even though i only made that post at 6:51??? I've seen this happen at least three times in the last few days, what the heck is going on with these forums? Soon the posts will so out of wack that we won't be able to see who is commenting on what post or even who asked the question...LOL

 

[VIPERn94Five-0]

im a firm believer in the Fox TB swap. And Jake if you get the cruise working let me know because i think i will do it once that is worked out....just gotta sell my FMS 65mm and elbow to fund it....

Anthony

 

[zenboy99]

Well...it looks like I'm going to have to order up a bigger throttle body.

 

[94DreamGT]

I'm still trying to figure out how a 90-degree bend is better than a 45-degree one for making power???

And ZenBoy...you are going by what is being said in this thread to base your decision on getting a bigger TB? I don't see any results yet...just be weary of what people are saying is all.

Until it is proven...it is hearsay

Hate to sound like a bitter person...but I wouldn't want everyone to rush out an get 75mm TB's etc...and have everyone disappointed when they don't gain anything or worse, lose power. It depends on a that particular combo and the intake etc...

 

[Rootus]

I'm still trying to figure out how a 90-degree bend is better than a 45-degree one for making power???

I think you're missing the point. The swap from 94/95 elbow to Fox-style does not have anything to do with the bend per se, it has to do with the *diameter* of the pathway the air is taking. If you look at the inside of a 94/95 elbow, you'll see that it makes a pretty sharp turn -- not only to the side, but it goes up an inch or so at the same time. It seems to lose diameter during the transition -- so I think that's where the bottleneck is. With the fox setup, you have control over where and how the bend takes place, so you can ensure that it never gets smaller than some set amount, say 75mm. I think velocity has very little to do with the equation -- you could probably bend the air pathway a half dozen times with no ill effect as long as you maintain an unrestricted path.

Dave

 

[GTJake]

Jeremy, still wondering how you think the fox intake tract has a 90* bend.

Here's a couple pics...

They both look like 45* bends to me.

Have you ever checked out the inside of an elbow adapter? Ever looked at the huge chunk taken out of the inside for the EGR. And if that's deleted then all that is is something that creates turbulance.

I don't know why you keep having to dismiss the swap? Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Either way it doesn't matter to me.

Chad, ask Ed before you get a different TB. He may have a different suggestion for your car.

 

[94DreamGT]

Not exactly 90* and 45*, I was using those as a reference to distinquish between the angle difference between the two styles. If what Dave said is true about the diameter though, that would bring some significance to the table.

I just find it interesting that these cars have been out 10 years and I've maybe only seen a very small handful of people who have done the swap...most of those were for other purposes though. If there was power to be gained, I would think it would be very popular. Almost seems like a "fad" mod if you want to call it that...however...I am not dismissing it as ineffective, just saying I don't see the blatant advantages and am still waiting to see results showing before/after.