Installing a pi Intake

Laser, are the adapter plates just something that go like
Manifold
PI gaskets
Adapter Plate
NPI gaskets
NPI head

or what? And when you say adapter plates are you talking livernois (sp) or some other brand? How tall are they??

Dustbuster, that was about 6-7 years ago, and unfortunately my memory just isn't that good sometimes, which is bad cause I'm not old!:D I'll have to ask Matt or Ronnie if they remember. I would think I would have remembered if it was the Livernois adapator, but I really can't say for sure.

The gaskets we used were not the typical plastic type with the neoprene(rubber)liner. But other than that, your stacking order is correct.
 
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Laser, are the adapter plates just something that go like
Manifold
PI gaskets
Adapter Plate
NPI gaskets
NPI head

or what? And when you say adapter plates are you talking livernois (sp) or some other brand? How tall are they??

that is correct and yes livernois makes them and so does HP. Not sure how much Livernois are but HPs are $90.
http://www.hiperformancesolutions.com/order_page.html
as for how thick they are i am not sure
 
That price doesn't seem bad at all. Anyone ever deal with that company before :shrug: I've never read anything about them.

I'm still waiting on a member from this board to update on his "custom" plates that he is working on :nice:
 
We had this debate in our shop a long time ago when we heard that guys were trying to use RTV the somehow adapt these PI intakes to a non-PI head. We thought it was a joke at first, but sure enough they were serious. Then due to popular demand from customers and friends, we were asked to use our flow bench to do some testing, I happily obliged.

The below flow data was obtained from a Superflow SF-600 testing a bone stock non-PI head, the same non-PI head with RTV between the PI intake and non-PI head, and the same non-PI head with the correct adaptor plates. I let someone else apply the RTV that had done it before, I have a professional reputation to uphold.

Stock non-PI head:
View attachment 403104

Stock non-PI head with the RTV:
View attachment 403106

Stock non-PI head with correct adaptors:
View attachment 403107

As you can see the graph displaying the non-PI head without the adaptor plates is indicative of what is referred to as boundary layer shear and some mid-lift tumble. That is why you see the mid-lift surges and poor overall flow compared to the adaptor plates. The mismatch between the non-PI head and the PI intake are responsible for this. Boundary layer shear and tumble not only hurt flow and velocity characteristics, but they also inhibit the the proper pressure wave sequence that aids in scavenging during overlap, which is critical especially on stock non-PI heads and cams and will hurt power. This power is hurt especially in the low to mid RPM's where most of your street driving occurs.

Then we spent an entire weekend on our neighbor's engine dyno (SF-901). The adaptor plates showed a 13 HP peak increase over the RTV'ed intake. Now that may not sound like much of a loss, but the area under the curve it's what's really important, especially on a street car. There was as much as a 21 HP increase under the curve between 2k RPM’s and 4500 RPM’s. Some shops we have spoken with have see a bigger difference under the curve than we found. That is very significant especially on a street driven car.

There are 3 main types of fuel injector spray patterns, conical, fan, and pulse stream. We have a fan type pattern. The absolute ONLY thing that will affect the type of fuel injector pattern is to change the type of injector. Raising the bottom of the intake manifold runner ½” off the entrance to the cylinder head intake runner has absolutely no effect on the fuel injector pattern. The air being drawn into the cylinder is moving at 550-600 MPH and sometimes approaching sonic speed. The instant the fuel leaves the injector, it is immediately pulled into the extremely fast moving air charge and immediately conforms to the geometry of the airstream. The extra ½” that the adaptors provide not only help to increase fuel atomization by keeping the fuel suspended for a split second longer, but they effectively increase the volume of the intake runner and therefore increase power by allowing more air/fuel to be drawn in during overlap.

Adaptor plates may not be cheap, but there is no question that they make more power and improve fuel economy.


What was the process used in the application of RTV? Was it applied in the PI intake runner to reshape it to fit the NPI head? This was common a few years ago but has since been replaced with the simple process of using PI gasket and a small dab of RTV on the coolant passage. Also what kind of adapter plates were used and where did they come from? I would think anyone successfully producing a set of NPI to PI Intake adapter plates and having a flow chart to back them up would have made them available to sell almost imediately! So i'm not saying i think your charts are bogus and you just made them up on your computer to make yourself look like you know what you are talking about but well yes that is what i'm saying!!! I think your so-called tests and flow charts are total :bs:
 
What was the process used in the application of RTV? Was it applied in the PI intake runner to reshape it to fit the NPI head? This was common a few years ago but has since been replaced with the simple process of using PI gasket and a small dab of RTV on the coolant passage. Also what kind of adapter plates were used and where did they come from? I would think anyone successfully producing a set of NPI to PI Intake adapter plates and having a flow chart to back them up would have made them available to sell almost imediately! So i'm not saying i think your charts are bogus and you just made them up on your computer to make yourself look like you know what you are talking about but well yes that is what i'm saying!!! I think your so-called tests and flow charts are total :bs:

I didn't make the adaptor plates and never claimed to. You should learn to read more carefully before making knee jerk comments. The adaptor plates were given to me by another shop who got them from a magazine to do some testing. We get stuff like that all the time. Very common for those in the know. Everybody in the know know's everything I posted to be spot on.

I have posted real life flow data acquired by a real flow bench from my real professional personal working experience.

Do you have any data from your professional working experience that would dis-prove anything I have posted?
 
I am watching this one.. lets keep it clean so I don't have to close it.

I really would like to see more on this topic, in fact if somebody has a NPI car and lives in my area I will help out if somebody wants to do dyno runs with and without adapter plates.. I will swap the intake so you won't have to pay for the labor to do it.
 
I went with some homemade plates just to ease my own mind but a lot of people have had good results with the RTV method. If anyone has dyno results on the RTV method thay can compare theirs to my dyno with the plates. I know it would probably be a vague comparison but it may shed some light on whether or not it is worth the extra expense.
 
We had this debate in our shop a long time ago when we heard that guys were trying to use RTV the somehow adapt these PI intakes to a non-PI head. We thought it was a joke at first, but sure enough they were serious. Then due to popular demand from customers and friends, we were asked to use our flow bench to do some testing, I happily obliged.

The below flow data was obtained from a Superflow SF-600 testing a bone stock non-PI head, the same non-PI head with RTV between the PI intake and non-PI head, and the same non-PI head with the correct adaptor plates. I let someone else apply the RTV that had done it before, I have a professional reputation to uphold.

Stock non-PI head:
View attachment 403077

Stock non-PI head with the RTV:
View attachment 403079

Stock non-PI head with correct adaptors:
View attachment 403081

As you can see the graph displaying the non-PI head without the adaptor plates is indicative of what is referred to as boundary layer shear and some mid-lift tumble. That is why you see the mid-lift surges and poor overall flow compared to the adaptor plates. The mismatch between the non-PI head and the PI intake are responsible for this. Boundary layer shear and tumble not only hurt flow and velocity characteristics, but they also inhibit the the proper pressure wave sequence that aids in scavenging during overlap, which is critical especially on stock non-PI heads and cams and will hurt power. This power is hurt especially in the low to mid RPM's where most of your street driving occurs.

Then we spent an entire weekend on our neighbor's engine dyno (SF-901). The adaptor plates showed a 13 HP peak increase over the RTV'ed intake. Now that may not sound like much of a loss, but the area under the curve it's what's really important, especially on a street car. There was as much as a 21 HP increase under the curve between 2k RPM’s and 4500 RPM’s. Some shops we have spoken with have see a bigger difference under the curve than we found. That is very significant especially on a street driven car.

There are 3 main types of fuel injector spray patterns, conical, fan, and pulse stream. We have a fan type pattern. The absolute ONLY thing that will affect the type of fuel injector pattern is to change the type of injector. Raising the bottom of the intake manifold runner ½” off the entrance to the cylinder head intake runner has absolutely no effect on the fuel injector pattern. The air being drawn into the cylinder is moving at 550-600 MPH and sometimes approaching sonic speed. The instant the fuel leaves the injector, it is immediately pulled into the extremely fast moving air charge and immediately conforms to the geometry of the airstream. The extra ½” that the adaptors provide not only help to increase fuel atomization by keeping the fuel suspended for a split second longer, but they effectively increase the volume of the intake runner and therefore increase power by allowing more air/fuel to be drawn in during overlap.

Adaptor plates may not be cheap, but there is no question that they make more power and improve fuel economy.
Droptop is right you are a lair. :bs:
:ban:
 
laserred01gt.. I am not buying a 21 hp loss with rtv, I know for a fact that it's a wash, this has been covered before on this forum and others with dyno numbers showing up too a 20 hp increase with no plates. how are we supposed to buy a extra 21 hp from using plates. If that was true EVERYBODY would have them by now.



Plus I think TGJ is in the know, from what I have read in his other posts on this forum and others he really knows his stuff and is friends with some of the top names in the modular world.

If your HP figures are correct than that means people are LOOSING hp when they swap over to the PI intake using RTV and we all know thats not true.. think about that for a second! Some people on here have used plates and trust me we would notice the difference in posted dyno numbers if it was that much of a difference.

Do you want to retract anything now?
 
I'm still waiting for somebody with real, not hearsay, data to dis-prove anything I have posted. I'm waiting. Anybody with any kind of working experience with cylinder flow dynamics, or more specifically, CFD (computational fluid dynamics) knows that it’s a simple fact that without a correctly formed adaptor, you will experience boundary layer separation and tumble which of course will hurt power. There is no way around it but to go with an adaptor plates. When the PI motors were first in production and people started making plates, this was tested and was proven time and time again.

BTW, for those who don't know how to read, those are engine dyno numbers, NOT chassis dyno numbers . Hence the reason I said both "engine" dyno and even gave the model SF-901, LOL. It is a well known fact that there is a significant HP difference between the adaptors and without. Again if you will read what I posted correctly, I said 13 peak and 21 average under the curve. Do you guys even understand what that means? So were talking about 10 peak RWHP and 15 average under the curve RWHP if compared on a chassis dyno. It’s just a simple fact of CFD. Some of you need to learn to read more closely and do your homework a little better.

I stand by what I said 100% because I know it to be true. I have talked to many other shops that obtained similar results.

Mike, you know me better than to ask me if I want to retract anything....especially coming from one professional to another. ;)
 
wow, so i guess trick flow and everyone else can stop production of their intake manifolds since you can get the same power out of $90 adapter plates than a $700+ intake manifold.
rolleyes.gif
 
When you use the adaptor kits supplied by people like Livernois, not only are the adaptor plates tapered to go from the PI manifold to the non-PI head, but the PI manfold is machined as well to properly align to the adaptor plates.

On our testing and some other shops including Livernois that I have talked to, when you use a correctly machined PI intake manifold and adaptor plates and the correct tune, a 30-35 RWHP can be expected. You'll be lucky to get over 20 RWHP if you do it the wrong way by applying RTV instead of the adaptor plates. It's just common sense.

Don't believe me? No problem, call Livernois., but I suspect the haters will just say that Livernois is just trying to push their adaptor kit. :)
 
I'm still waiting for somebody with real, not hearsay, data to dis-prove anything I have posted. I'm waiting.

I just read this thread today since I last posted in it. You better have your dyno-charts ready, because I am demanding that you post them. I am looking for what I have and will post it when found. You won't like the results.
 
When you use the adaptor kits supplied by people like Livernois, not only are the adaptor plates tapered to go from the PI manifold to the non-PI head, but the PI manfold is machined as well to properly align to the adaptor plates.

On our testing and some other shops including Livernois that I have talked to, when you use a correctly machined PI intake manifold and adaptor plates and the correct tune, a 30-35 RWHP can be expected. You'll be lucky to get over 20 RWHP if you do it the wrong way by applying RTV instead of the adaptor plates. It's just common sense.

Don't believe me? No problem, call Livernois., but I suspect the haters will just say that Livernois is just trying to push their adaptor kit. :)

Wow did you cut & paste that straight from the Livernois site?
Sorry but you won't see a 30-35rwhp gain with just a PI Intake kit from Livernois. (only gain 40-45rwhp from complete PI swap) There was a before and after dyno posted on MD a few years ago when this kit came out and it was a 17rwhp gain...thats a whopping 2rwhp gain over the avg PI Intake with PI gasket and rtv. The reason you don't see alot of people running this kit is the extra $200 isn't justified by the minimal gains seen using the plates so don't expect the masses to rush and post dyno #'s because your not gonna see it unless you want someone to fabricate some.

Another thing...how does someone who claims to be the flow bench guru with all the knowledge and years of experience not even know the flow #'s of P&P'd PI heads and where to buy them at just a few short months ago?
http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=667251

that is you who made that thread at the end of oct 06 isn't it? I would think someone who claims to know as much as you would surely not need to ask such a question from us sub-par hobbyist type weekend warriors...or was your flow equipment broke that day?