willys1
Active Member
Yes,I hear they are one of the best out of the box heads.But do they have the low end torque that Thumpers have?90Notch said:
Is there anyone on here that actually knows what they are talking about?
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90Notch said:
Agree'd.
In order for the lesser heads to keep up from a performance stand point, sacrifices will need be made with regard to manners and economy.
If manners and economy are paramount, performance will decrease.
With the more efficient heads, you can have it all.
My situation is that the car is not a daily driver, and, I'm stubron(sp?) have a fetish for "stock look" and think ornary pieces of machinery are a blast.
If you've not got those attributes stuck in your skull, you'll either give up performance, or, develope a dislike for your fuel devouring(sp?) cantankerous 5.0.
25thmustang
Mustang Master
"And, I've got a friend running the B, with stock GT40's(flow typical a economic ported E7) running low 12's (12.3's actually) at over 110mph in a full weight LX. Not bad for a crappy outdated cam. Intrestingly, above mentioned worked stock heads advertise more flow, and often spec the B... but find me a car in the low 12's n/a with those heads."
Low 12s NA with GT-40s or ported E7s? If you mean 40s there are plenty of guys out there running low 12s, with stock cams...
90Notch, thats my combo now, stock motor, Cobra intake and valves in untouched heads. It runs pretty hard, and Im sure a set of TFS heads would make it run a bunch harder, but for the $1000 they cost, I think the E7s can run extremely close! Its all in what you personally want though.
As far as the cam, I am no guru, I have only ever had a stocker and a B cam, and my only word of advise is to talk to a cam guy, and have one ground for what you want. Custom cams are much better than off the shelf, and although cost more, its worth it in the end.
Low 12s NA with GT-40s or ported E7s? If you mean 40s there are plenty of guys out there running low 12s, with stock cams...
90Notch, thats my combo now, stock motor, Cobra intake and valves in untouched heads. It runs pretty hard, and Im sure a set of TFS heads would make it run a bunch harder, but for the $1000 they cost, I think the E7s can run extremely close! Its all in what you personally want though.
As far as the cam, I am no guru, I have only ever had a stocker and a B cam, and my only word of advise is to talk to a cam guy, and have one ground for what you want. Custom cams are much better than off the shelf, and although cost more, its worth it in the end.
90Notch35-310-8 timing events are: IVO -2.5 BTDC IVC 37.5 ABDC EVO 48 BBDC EVC -8 ATDC[/QUOTE said:
willys1
Active Member
Rite oncleanLX said:
Thats what Im after,100% stock looking 5.0!!I have the 16' ponies with the stock size tire up front,but have Nittos in back. With a little luck I will be in the high 12's in 2005!! If I got a cam I know I could do better.But yeah,I need half way decent gas mileage.Im gonna tweak the suspension also,that should help out a bit.
cleanLX said:Out of curiosity, what are the valve events of the B and F cams?
B cam is 224* @ .050" & 110* lobe centers and valve events are
IVO - 2* BTDC, IVC - 43* ABDC
EVO - 43.5 BBDC, EVC - .5* ATDC with 4* overlap
F cam is 226* @ .050" & 114 lobe centers and valve events are
IVO - -1* BTDC, IVC - 47* ABDC
EVO - 43.5* BBDC, EVC - 2.5* ABDC with -2* overlap
cleanLX said:
You also have a tmoss upper
Hmmm.tmoss said:
The B, as far as numbers go, is more in keeping with what "I'd have guessed" looked good for 'stock' heads... keeping in mind I'm not a cam expert.
Reminding myself, numbers do not tell the entire tale, and, lobe profiles add even more complexity... :shaking head in confusion:
shhhhh...tmoss said:You also have a tmoss upper
.
willys1
Active Member
OK,now that class is in session,would out of the boxT.Wedge heads have the low end torque that the Thumpers do,with a factory 5.0 cam?
04sleeper
Founding Member
No. TW heads do not work well with the factory cam. I have seen out of the box Edelbrocks and AFR 165's make more.willys1 said:
willys1
Active Member
25thmustang
Mustang Master
There are guys with out of the box GT-40s going those numbers... The guys going 11.6-12.1s arent, but some guys in the 12.2-12.4s are...
In this day in age it seems everyone is getting a custom cam, which is smart. I dont see companies trying to bring back the alphabet cams, there are just too many better ways to go now!
In this day in age it seems everyone is getting a custom cam, which is smart. I dont see companies trying to bring back the alphabet cams, there are just too many better ways to go now!
"Yes,I hear they are one of the best out of the box heads.But do they have the low end torque that Thumpers have? "
Yes and more when camm'd properly. This is only SOP experience but when I switched to the TWs I picked up power everywhere even down low. Trying to get the car to launch from a stop light and dead stop was significantly more difficult than with the "high velocity" ported stockers. It took some time to learn how to feather the throttle because if I left like before it always ended up in wheel spin. It's a street car so never had any times and I never dynoed car either. But for those who say the larger head won't compare to stockers down low look at ndmp40 combos (from Corral.net), stock short block, AFR185s and heavily ported stock intake he made 305 ft-lbs of torque to the rear wheels at 2250rpm. Show me one set of ported stock heads that make comparable performance.
B303 has a 112LSA and is supposed to be installed on a 107ICL/117ECL the valve events are:
IVO 5* BTDC, IVC 39* ABDC
EVO 49 BBDC, EVC -5* ATDC with 0* overlap
F303 has a 114LSA and is supposed to be installed on a 109ICL/119ECL the valve events are:
IVO 4* BTDC, IVC 42* ABDC
EVO 52 BBDC, EVC -6* ATDC with -2* overlap
E303 has a 110LSA and is supposed to be installed on a 110ICL/110ECL the valve events are:
IVO 0* BTDC, IVC 40* ABDC
EVO 40 BBDC, EVC 0* ATDC with 0* overlap
Yes and more when camm'd properly. This is only SOP experience but when I switched to the TWs I picked up power everywhere even down low. Trying to get the car to launch from a stop light and dead stop was significantly more difficult than with the "high velocity" ported stockers. It took some time to learn how to feather the throttle because if I left like before it always ended up in wheel spin. It's a street car so never had any times and I never dynoed car either. But for those who say the larger head won't compare to stockers down low look at ndmp40 combos (from Corral.net), stock short block, AFR185s and heavily ported stock intake he made 305 ft-lbs of torque to the rear wheels at 2250rpm. Show me one set of ported stock heads that make comparable performance.
B303 has a 112LSA and is supposed to be installed on a 107ICL/117ECL the valve events are:
IVO 5* BTDC, IVC 39* ABDC
EVO 49 BBDC, EVC -5* ATDC with 0* overlap
F303 has a 114LSA and is supposed to be installed on a 109ICL/119ECL the valve events are:
IVO 4* BTDC, IVC 42* ABDC
EVO 52 BBDC, EVC -6* ATDC with -2* overlap
E303 has a 110LSA and is supposed to be installed on a 110ICL/110ECL the valve events are:
IVO 0* BTDC, IVC 40* ABDC
EVO 40 BBDC, EVC 0* ATDC with 0* overlap
willys1
Active Member
What type cam did he have??////////I like the stock cam!!It makes good power down low,,and it sounds nice with 410's90Notch said:
I would really like to get 430's,,but thats one of the down falls of the stock cam.Im crossing the line now at 52--5300 rpm,by then,the peak power is gone 
"What type cam did he have??////////I like the stock cam!!It makes good power down low,,and it sounds nice with 410's "
Stock cam, not sure what you mean by it sounds nice w/4.10s though? Stock cam does make nice power down low but there are other cams that will too.
Just for reference his large headed motor made more torque at 2250rpm than mine made at its peak (302).
Stock cam, not sure what you mean by it sounds nice w/4.10s though? Stock cam does make nice power down low but there are other cams that will too.
Just for reference his large headed motor made more torque at 2250rpm than mine made at its peak (302).
25thmustang
Mustang Master
My stock heads that havent been ported, just the 1.84/1.54 vlaves and stock cam made 316 rwtq. I forget the RPM it made it at and not sure what tq it made at 2250, but I think its decent numbers!
25thmustang said:
Now... You've competed in Factory Stock correct?
Lets discuss something...
In order to perform a proper valve job, some bowl work is required. To install larger valves, even more bowl work is required in order to blend the new larger holes.
I'm curious how critical NMRA is with respect to bowl work when larger valves are used in stock heads?
Oh, and the guys running low 12's on stock GT40's with stock cam... Nice. I don't dis-believe it at all, just, I've not seen it. Any chance you know of any on that frequent the typical boards?
willys1
Active Member
At normal excelleration when the engine gets to this certain RPM,its sounds really good!! And the 410's get it to that RPM faster then stock gears.(never looked at the tach so I dont know the rpm)Im guessing its the power band.90Notch said:
25thmustang
Mustang Master
cleanLX said:
I can assure you my machinist did the least amount of bowl work required to get the valves in there. I paid very little for new valves, springs, retainers, and assembly, and he knew the heads could not be ported, and that I was on a tight budget!
As for the guys running the numbers, the only one I run with that even has GT-40s on here is Stanglx I believe? He has a 306 with 40Ps and such and has gone 12.2 but I dont think his heads are stockers. The rest dont usually go online, they dont follow most of the BS that happens on the internet, haha!
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