Long Tubes a waste on N/A cars.

Discussion in 'SN95 4.6L Mustang Tech' started by MustangLife, Feb 25, 2004.

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  1. See my whole point was that there are better deals in town to spend your money on. If you plan on keeping your car N/A maybe LT's are a good mod. If you plan on adding a blower it will stick with you in the future. But LTs are not the first thing someone should do. I beleive if going fast is your ultimate goal there are better ways to spend your cash. Like I said getting cams springs and having them installed will cost roughly the same as having LTs put in. With a much better gain. And if long tubes sound good imagine what a nasty lope would sound like?
  2. BBK ceramic coated. Summit wants more than 600 for it all.

    5111, what mid-pipe did you have before the LT install?
  3. sorry but i have almost every single bolt on there is for the 4.6L besides Cams, Port and polish heads, Headers and the steed TA... i just purchased a set of Bassani Headers and the guy i know i bought them from had them on his car and he would kick my cars ars... i run a 13.2-13.5 1/4 mile with the cams i ordered and the LTS i should dip in the 12s but i guess for someone that has not had a experiance with LTs then would not know what the hell the POWER diff is... His car had a FULL LENTH EXHAUST and it felt stronger then MINE...
  4. got my long tube bbk ceramics from summit , 499 , x pipe was 379 i think and 02 sensor extensions , was 918 total after handling fee
  5. I just know that Cams are worth about 30 hp if you get the right ones. LTs are worth anywhere from just whats on this thread,5-20 on an other wise stock car. Now the ultimate in sound and power is putting them both together. But I would rather have 30hp than 15. See the thing everyopne is forgeting is that these things work in percentages not set #s. The more power a car is making the better the LTs will do. If you are only making 230rwhp you are not going to get a gain as big as a 400rwhp car will. LTs and back will probably get me to the 440 rwhp range but I will wait until my engine is out becuase the shop that will build it will probably add those with no extra labor costs saving me $400+ and on top of that the gains will really be felt when it is all finished at once.
  6. MAC H
  7. Where can I get cams, springs, a dyno tune for and installation for $1000? That is what it cost me to for headers, midpipe, and installation.
  8. And I could bolt on a TB/plenum to my set up and match or exceed your curve and peaks. It would be cheaper and tons easier to install a TB/plenum. I realize LT's provide gains, but they are minor for the work and cost involved. The most SAE hp. our stangs are going to produce with bolt-ons is between 250-260 N/A. The quickest and least expensive way to get there is:

    - x or h pipe with or without cats (minor differences)
    - full cat-back exhaust with high flow mufflers
    - drop-in K&N stock replacement filter
    - TB/plenum (this my even not be needed)
    - an aggressive dyno tune

    I guarantee you take a stock 5 speed GT with above list to at least 250 rwhp if your tuner knows what they are doing. Lots of power can be gained with a/f and timing adjustments over the stock program. Ford does not set-up our GT computer program for max. horsepower. They could, but they don't bother with it. I'd hope their SVT products at least have aggressive computer programs.

    You don't need pullies, aftermarket MAF's, CAI's, or LONGTUBE HEADERS to reach the GT's max. power.

    There are lots of ways to get to 250-260 rwhp., some are just not necessary. Another example is my C&L MAF - not necessary had I know at the time I was going to dyno tune my car in the future. The stock MAF is fine for my power level.

    Attached Files:

  9. Modular Madness in Mooresville NC. They said about $850-$1K for Blower Cams Springs and install.
  10. I agree, there are cheaper ways to get 250rwhp if that is all that you want. But your solution isn't necessarily it.

    Here is your list for 250rwhp:
    X or H pipe (needed for both applications so I didn't figure it)
    full catback ($350-$400)
    Drop in K&N ($40)
    TB/Plenum ($200 I really don't know)
    Dyno tune ($500)
    Total ($1080)

    Longtube 250 rwhp:
    X or H pipe (needed for both applications)
    Longtubes ($450)
    Gaskets ($50)
    Installation ($400...What I paid at S.E.Racing)
    Total ($900)

    Both got you the same end goal for about the same price. Now add the rest of the bolt-ons and a dyno tune to the LT car and you can get 270rwhp. I don't think that is possible with just other bolt-ons.

    But again, just look at the tried-and-true racers. To get the most out of their cars, they are using headers.

  11. That is a good price, but I would need an extra $500 for a dyno tune. I don't think that you can drive around on the stock computer for that ;) I need to forge my bottom end first, but them come heads and cams!

    Thanks for the price, I will keep them in mind.

  12. My brother pulled on their Dyno on Tuesday with his lightning. So unless it broke since then it is fixed now. Also he put on a bassani catback, and K&N CAI and gained 50hp over stock. I was impressed.
  13. I beg you to show me stock 5 speed GT with only an x or h pipe and LT's make 250 rwhp with EVERYTHING ELSE STOCK AS YOU LISTED ABOVE.

    By the way, a $500 dyno tine is insane for a simple bolt-on mod. car. I paid $250, but mine was a group tune. I could maybe see $350 to $400 for a bolt-on tune including dyno time.
  14. Someone else will have to provide that one for you, but remember that I was also counting a catback for both. Let's play the numbers game (which obviously does not always work). Add 13 for headers, 7 for an O/R pipe, and 5 for a catback and you are up to 25 horses with exhaust. (I know that is a numbers game but between those three lots of guys have done it). The average stock GT dynos at 225. Again, I know that the numbers game doesn't always work, but I think that those are pretty normal to conservative numbers. If it doesn't make 250rwhp it will get pretty damn close.
    Dallas Mustang charges a flat $500 for a dyno tune and a chip. $350 if you already have a chip. That seemed to be about the going rate around here. I'm betting that you already had a chip, right?
    As I mentioned before, I am not saying that LT's are the best mod around, nor that they are the cheapest. I am not one of those die-hard LTers that say that you have to get headers. What I am saying is that they are NOT a waste of money on a NA car as the title of the thread implies, and that if you want to get the MOST out of your bolt-on stang, you need them. Sure, cams are probably a better investment, but they also cost more.

    One thing that we definitely agree on is that to make power you need to ditch the stock mid-pipe.
  15. Then you need to add $350-$400 to your list for cat-back. Now you are at $1,250 - $1,300 for your 250 rwhp method. That's more than my method and that's assuming a $500 dyno tune ($500 is a very expensive tune for bolt-on mods.)

    My $250 dyno tune included my Autologic Chip and seven dyno pulls. It also included future chip programing changes without dyno time. In fact, I just mailed them my chip last week to have them update it for my 4.10's. Got it back today. I only had to pay for the postage.

    Yes, I do agree that the mid-pipe is the main restriction on our GT's.

    Believe me, if I could simply bolt-on some LT's to my current set up and gain a solid 15 - 20 rwhp SAE, I'd do it in a heartbeat. My buddy is a Ford service manager and I could have the install done for very little expense out of my pocket. They did my 4.10's for $175.
  16. wow, im not surprised, another stupid tech post by MustangLife :rolleyes:
  17. 2000GT So your saying that since my car is already at 252rwhp with no mid pipe, no headers, no tb/plenum combo, that adding these parts will only get me around 8 or so more hp since a GT cant break 260rwhp NA :rolleyes: Give me a break man! Granted I do have a chip for my car, but it has by no means an aggressive tune to it. It is very streetable with the tune I had put on. I only had a bit timing added, and havent even touched my a/f since my mods havent gotten to serious yet. Give me another month and Ill have some #'s that will shoot your little theory out of the water :notnice: .

    I do agree that L/T's are not the cheapest mod for our cars, I will definately agree there, but for someone who is staying NA and wants to get the most out of their cars before they start messing with cams, heads, intakes, superchargers ect... they are one of the best mods we can do for all around #'s both peak and throughout the curve.
  18. Okay, drop the 5 for a catback and make the midpipe add 10 (a more realistic number anyhow) and you are still really close (248). Most '03 stockers are seeing more than 225 anyhow. But again, we are playing the numbers game again which never works

    $250 for a chip AND a dyno tune?!?! That is a killer price! I wish that I could find a price like that. Most places want $250-$300 just for an off-the-shelf chip. We do mean the same thing when we say "dyno-tune", right? You are strapped on the dyno while they burn your chip between runs based on your A/F, right?
    Also, I didn't promise 15-20rwhp, I said 13rwhp. That is what I got with just the headers (midpipes being the same). I don't see why you shouldn't get it.

    Here is my final bit of evidence that you can't argue with: Matt (03trubluGT) has the following mods:
    BBK LT's, O/R X-pipe, Magnaflow catback, CAI,Accufab Plenum/TB.
    His SAE dyno is 264rwhp/297rwtq. That is on the stock computer. NO CHIP!

    He did his own wrenching on the car so he has spent under $1300 for 264rwhp! Can't really beat that without NOS. Slap a tune on it and he is easily over 270

    What you are not realizing is that I am not saying that your system is wrong, I am saying that MY system is not wrong either. I have posted a 20+rwhp gain (headers and midpipe) for about $1000 installed and you are telling me that I am not gaining anything :shrug: Where is the logic in that?
  19. Catbacks on an N/A Mustang are a HP mod........since when? I'd say less than 5HP if anything.
  20. Are your hp numbers corrected or uncorrected? The just seem really high given your mods. What mph are you running in the 1/4 mi? I would expect if you are making over 250 you must regularly be 101-ish.

    FWIW, I think that one dyno graph does tell the story. Check out the gains after the peak. They are not super-huge, but they seem pretty impressive to me. I don't doubt that even if the peak numbers aren't all that great, the post-peak will certainly help out in the 1/4 mile. Then again, how many n/a bolt-on mods give you over 10+ hp peak and better gains post-peak??? :shrug: Not to many.

    At the same time, I don't plan on getting longtubes because I don't want to install headers. Been down that road before and don't feel like breaking my back again! LTs are a hassle compared to just about every other mod unless you have the time, skills, patience, and desire to install them yourselves. And if you don't have access to a lift . . . well, I pity the fool!!! :D I would also expect you'd need a tune after LTs, so this also adds to the price. And a you can't wait on a mid-pipe. Pretty much have to dump a ton of cash all at once for this mod, which is probably why relatively few stangers install LTs.
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