Looking for Idea/advice on build

RangerJoe

I leave the horn on while driving
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Apr 26, 2010
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#21
There is no cheap fix. Adding to that, I don't think anyone would recommend using your rotating assembly in the dart block. You would need all new.

Joe
 
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2000xp8

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Aug 8, 2003
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#22
Crossing the the 500rwhp (or the 450rwp safe mark) is absurdly expensive.
There is no budget build, there are no reusable parts, no financial shortcuts, with the trans and full engine build and what will likely be a new power adder you should be ready to spend 15 to 20 grand. A well built 363 with killer heads and intake, may very well outflow an m112.

While obviously I have a 4.6l terminator engine, I also had a lot of things to sell off from my car to fund it, not to mention I didn't need a trans, just a bellhousing.
I'd be surprised if it could be built and running for less than $10,000 even without labor.
Remember too, I have friends in the business so I get plenty of help and never owe labor.

Your situation is the perfect example of why I like explorer engines that have never been cracked open. Just seems like nobody builds a reliable quality 306.

It's a shame ford did away with the B block 347 (yes hyper pistons, but you could get 425rwhp all motor). I had one and paid $2200 NIB from ford. The internals didn't need to be forged since the b block wasn't putting up with the extra power anyway.
It really was a great street engine.

The quandary that you are in is going to get worse before it gets better.
If you build a 347 with a stock block, there really isn't a reason to use an m112 on it you will already be too close to the threshold.
If you build a dart 363 the m112 will be too small.
If you start a build and run out of money you are left broke with no car.

Let's not forget if you cross the low 500's in rwhp you will also need a fuel system, there's 2 g's on what will seem like nothing.

I'm in the "paranoid if my stuff doesn't work" phase of life and while my cobra build took quite a while to collect parts and come up with a real plan (only took a week to implement it when I had all the parts and had use of my friends shop), I would NOT leave my car in parts that long again.
I think I would find a good crate engine, drop it in over the weekend and drive.
 
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a91what

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#24
There was a guy AlexLTD something over on the corral, he had a DART 363 with ported TF170 heads TFS1 cam and the same blower, thing made 700 RWHP... no porting on the blower so there were gains to be made there as well.
 

KZGUNS

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Jul 23, 2018
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#25
Definitely find a new shop. Have what you have evaluated. Going with a dart block is obviously very expensive but its a hell of a strong block. If it were me I'd be gunshy about rebuilding the current block but would lean on the knowledge of a reputable builder/machine shop. I wiped a cam out in my T-Bird 390fe and that made me nervous about that engine for a while but 3000+ miles later that feeling has faded.
 

CarMichael Angelo

I don't like your attitude, let me fix that.
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#26
I always have to check myself..........I do that,....think about it, and then jump off into the "What the phck are you talking about Jeeves?" Challenge.

Always the same guy, always making the same comment about how much money it's gonna cost you to convert the existing engine over to something else...Always the same thing...10k+ to do anything....
And this is coming from a guy that supposedly does his own work....:nonono:

I've said it before. I've actually provided a punch list detailing line by line what it would cost to convert,...over to a 351, a 460, a SOHC 4.6. I've done them all.

None of them came close to half that.

The recent 4.6 in the red car was a complete pull out out of an 02 GT. The 56 k mile engine coupled to the 5 speed 3650 cost me 1000.00. I left it intact...put it in the car, installed a MSD ignition, converted it over to carb, modified a cheap set of headers made it fit the stock k member,...there wasn't 3k in the whole swap...and it ran flawlessly.

The 460 that was in one of my previous Fairmonts was a 1000.00 short block after machine work. A flat tappet cam, a Weiand stealth intake, a 3310 Holley carb, ported stock heads, swap headers, a DIY build c4 , cheap 3000 stall converter, modified drive shaft and converted crossmember, and a drilled out super power shot plate..all DIY brought the total up to 6500.00.

And went 11.15 1/4 mile the first pass I brought it out. Eventually running high 9's before I broke it from too much nitrous, too much timing, too little octane.

You are the same guy...what ever you choose to do will be augmented by sweat equity. You live in Florida.. Shts cheap in Fla. Just as cheap as it is here. The banger in the Monster is a stupid expensive engine comparatively speaking...but it would've been obscene had I paid somebody else to do it. Pick what you want, farm out the machine work, and assemble it yourself.

Wallow in the reality that you never came close to spending anything that had 5 numbers in the total before the period.
 

a91what

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#27
Ok help me build this thing.... I got the ok to start hording parts...
so far on my list is a DART SHP block 2099 from summit
I would like to run a internally balanced 4340 crank, or worst case a 4130 crank from RPM
the rods need to hold up to abuse, RPM has some good choices but 4340 I or H ??? and why
I want to use my pistons and rings again... I have $700 in just rings and pistons alone. they are for a .30 over 302 application. so that limits me to either a 306 8.2"deck or a 393 9.5" deck application.
I am keeping the blower, its my creation so keeping that in mind I am building a bulletproof bottom end for it.

This is JUST the Short block i am changing, I do not have new cylinder heads in the budget right now but things change.
 

a91what

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#28
DART or the Boss 302 block... what the difference really? besides the $300 dollars
 

a91what

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#29
Also i may have a free 347 crank and 5.4 rods.... I have no idea if they are forged or not waiting for part numbers... If it is at least a scat9000 crank i think i may order new pistons and build a 363. It may not be a fully forged 363 but hell i dont plan to make 1000hp either.
 

FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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Sep 5, 2001
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#30
I like Mike's idea of going to a 351. I also like staying with a 302. They're just the simplest, cheapest, and quickest approach to getting your car back on the road and to having fun again.

You've got the arguments, but man the Dart path it's going to cost a LOT of time and money. The car is going to sit for quite a bit longer, too. You'll end up with a foundation you feel more confident about, but if you're like me, you'll also be more worried about the possibility of blowing it up. 302 blocks are a dime a dozen. My buddy blew up one with his turbo build and he literally paid the junkyard $50, got one with a marked up piston, smoothed it out, reinstalled everything, and drove it for years making 450+ rwhp until he sold it. My vote: save your money. Build the 302 or 351 with your current top end parts. Don't go down the snowballing path. 400-500 rwhp is still a ton of fun in a light fox. Put your money into nice brakes. You'll not be sorry. It's great not getting that wobbling pedal anymore. Then you can move on to things that make you appreciate your driving experience more: a bit of suspension, nice wheels and tires, working out the bugs, and get the car back on the road quickly.

It looks like you've decided, but I really think you'd enjoy the simple, fast, easy, and affordable approach more.

Either way, it's going to be fun to watch. Good luck, Steve!
 

RaggedGT

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#31
I like Mike's idea of going to a 351. I also like staying with a 302. They're just the simplest, cheapest, and quickest approach to getting your car back on the road and to having fun again.

You've got the arguments, but man the Dart path it's going to cost a LOT of time and money. The car is going to sit for quite a bit longer, too. You'll end up with a foundation you feel more confident about, but if you're like me, you'll also be more worried about the possibility of blowing it up. 302 blocks are a dime a dozen. My buddy blew up one with his turbo build and he literally paid the junkyard $50, got one with a marked up piston, smoothed it out, reinstalled everything, and drove it for years making 450+ rwhp until he sold it. My vote: save your money. Build the 302 or 351 with your current top end parts. Don't go down the snowballing path. 400-500 rwhp is still a ton of fun in a light fox. Put your money into nice brakes. You'll not be sorry. It's great not getting that wobbling pedal anymore. Then you can move on to things that make you appreciate your driving experience more: a bit of suspension, nice wheels and tires, working out the bugs, and get the car back on the road quickly.

It looks like you've decided, but I really think you'd enjoy the simple, fast, easy, and affordable approach more.

Either way, it's going to be fun to watch. Good luck, Steve!
+ 1 for 351 . But add really good aluminum heads
 

a91what

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#32
Ok i understand the cost, I just want a bullet proof bottom end for the 450hp i am after. I am tired of the problems i am having. Should i buy the crank and rods? Just rods? whats the HP limit of the stock crank?
I do not want to crack the block, i have a chance now to do it right.
351 is out totally i want to use my blower
 

FastDriver

My dad had a bra
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#33
It's not much more than the stock block, and I'm not a blower guy, but they're harder on crank snouts. I don't know how many miles are on it, but a crank can only take so many cycles, even at stock power levels. Plus, wouldn't you want something with more displacement & better balanced?

I don't think I could drop a stock crank into a dart block. It should hold that power level, though. Back in the day, I really liked the Eagle and Scat forged stuff. I ended up with a crazy crankshaft and rods in the used market that I just couldn't pass up for the price (Sonny Bryant and Oliver). But if I had gone with new (at the time) stuff, it would have been one of them. Pretty good quality/$. Don't know if their reputation is still there, but there were a lot of guys making 4-digit power on their stuff back then.
 
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a91what

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#34
Well I am definitely not using a stock rod again, it all depends on what i can get at for free....
All forged internals in a stock block seems like madness to me..... but I am going to do what the guys here who have way more engine building experience than i have think. I just need help picking the parts.
any amount of stroke with my blower i think would put me in the block splitting range [i could be wrong though]

There is a fully machined 302 xxx block with studs and main girdle for sale local for $250...

on the other hand if i hold out and buy a boss block and another set of pistons that can use my rings I may have a boss 347 i can swap my ish over onto... that would not cost too much i think.

My budget as of right now is $2200
 

CarMichael Angelo

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#38
The stock crank is externally balanced, and cannot be converted w/o adding a buttload of Mallory metal. And I'm here to tell you if you spend a dime on a stock crank converting it over to internal balance, you really need to check yourself into the psyc ward.

I beam an h beam rods are both adequate to your power level goals, but the simple fact of the matter is an h beam rod is a stronger piece at the price they are being sold at.
Now when talking premium forgings.....Oliver's 1000.00 rods are I beam I believe..at least the ones in my 363 in the Orange car was.

I too think that spending any money on a great block w/o stuffing that engine to cubic inch capacity is a giant waste, especially considering that inside every f 150 in the junkyard out there there is 351 cubic inches just waiting to be taken advantage of.

Here's a point of consideration for you since money is tight: Cause 2200 isn't gonna do anything except buy a block.

You and Your sensible side both go out and build an engine with the engines max c.i. as the target displacement......we'll eliminate the common things like machine work unless required, I.e. Both blocks have to be bored etc.etc..

You build a 347 dart block foundation:
  1. Dart block-$1800.00
  2. 347 forged rotating assy - $1500.00-1800.00 (because the 1000.00 kits out there have hypereutectic pistons rated at 10+:1 compression, and you need much less obviously) the good thing is that the entire assy is complete, and balanced.
  3. You reuse your cam/lifters/chain ( * Note this is at your peril, because the cam and lifters have been exposed to your liquid sandpaper that has been floating around in your engine for the last two engine failures)
  4. Since you now have an internally balanced rotating assembly, you cannot reuse the harmonic balancer, or flywheel that you used to have.
  5. You reuse your top end so that you can reuse your blower. ( Which I gather you intend to do) The 40 extra cubic inches is now choked by stock heads, you have a roots blower of questionable age, and boost can only be changed with pulley and belt changes.
Total before machine work and common things like gaskets, oil pump, fluids: $3600.00 plus balancer, plus flywheel.

The Sensible side of you now goes out:
  1. You buy a JY 351- $350.00-500.00
  2. You use the Pistons you have currently
  3. You buy a cast steel Scat stroker crank to get the 351 to 393 c.i. -$ 320.00
  4. You buy a cast steel I beam 5.956 rod - $325.00
  5. You buy a good ( not great) 28 oz balancer -$100. ( not sfi approved, add another 100 for that)
  6. You scrounge and buy a great set of AFR/TFS heads- $1500.00
  7. Bearings ( the non-sensible version has them in it) -100.00
  8. You scrounge and buy a great 351 intake that will let you reuse your TB and rails $200.00
  9. You have to add -$300 to you machine bill for a balance job.
  10. You have to buy cam/lifters/pushrods for 351 to make it hydraulic roller. -$700-800.00

Boom ! 393 cubic inches that'll make 450 n/a all day long 4000.00 plus machine work, plus fluids. everything is new except Pistons.
Both of these combos are gonna tip the scales after machine work at 5 k probably. You really are hobbling yourself with this blower. If you put another stock 302 together, you will eventually be back here. If you are truly at 450 hp already, the extra stress the crank snout is having to deal with already means you are all over block capacity.

* if you want to hoard parts great! Buying stuff that costs 3-350.00 at a crack every month is a lot easier than buying a damn bare block that takes 6 months of saving just to get there. There are a whole bunch of 300.00 parts in that 351 build.
Find a running 351. Put it in the car that way,..drive the thing this year sans blower, and do it right the first time.
( Unless you want to have a nickname like I have)

Trust me. I am the poster child for doing things differently, and I get it. But if you keep walking the path you're on, you will be back here again. ( Hell, I may be back here again...I have blow by issues that are still fcking me.)

*Anddd edit...a 302xxx block hasn't been proven to be any damn better than any other 5.0. I have seen 5.0 blocks with the entire crank assembly blown out with the main girdle still bolted to the caps.
 
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General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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Aug 25, 2016
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#39
I kinda agree with mike on the blower thing, but the fact that you put soooo much time into this thing and want to use it says 'put together another 5.0 with good parts, nothing fancy or costly, no girdles or bras, they ain't gonna help when the block splits, just more stuff to pickup with a shovel when it pukes the guts out, stuff it in franky and enjoy the ride'.
you know the limit that your at, your not going to build a bigger blower to swap because your block is at its limit and you would have to design another intake,
You will be able to set fire to the tires pretty much anytime you want, move out into traffic with the ability to invoke envy upon the hordes of working class people as you motor by with your soft top down, wearing your pretentious hat and your finger in the air.
All this figures you use the dart/boss block money to put some brakes on franky, he's gonna need them
Know the limits, drive it accordingly.
 

a91what

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#40
The stock crank is externally balanced, and cannot be converted w/o adding a buttload of Mallory metal. And I'm here to tell you if you spend a dime on a stock crank converting it over to internal balance, you really need to check yourself into the psyc ward.

I beam an h beam rods are both adequate to your power level goals, but the simple fact of the matter is an h beam rod is a stronger piece at the price they are being sold at.
Now when talking premium forgings.....Oliver's 1000.00 rods are I beam I believe..at least the ones in my 363 in the Orange car was.

I too think that spending any money on a great block w/o stuffing that engine to cubic inch capacity is a giant waste, especially considering that inside every f 150 in the junkyard out there there is 351 cubic inches just waiting to be taken advantage of.

Here's a point of consideration for you since money is tight: Cause 2200 isn't gonna do anything except buy a block.

You and Your sensible side both go out and build an engine with the engines max c.i. as the target displacement......we'll eliminate the common things like machine work unless required, I.e. Both blocks have to be bored etc.etc..

You build a 347 dart block foundation:
  1. Dart block-$1800.00
  2. 347 forged rotating assy - $1500.00-1800.00 (because the 1000.00 kits out there have hypereutectic pistons rated at 10+:1 compression, and you need much less obviously) the good thing is that the entire assy is complete, and balanced.
  3. You reuse your cam/lifters/chain ( * Note this is at your peril, because the cam and lifters have been exposed to your liquid sandpaper that has been floating around in your engine for the last two engine failures)
  4. Since you now have an internally balanced rotating assembly, you cannot reuse the harmonic balancer, or flywheel that you used to have.
  5. You reuse your top end so that you can reuse your blower. ( Which I gather you intend to do) The 40 extra cubic inches is now choked by stock heads, you have a roots blower of questionable age, and boost can only be changed with pulley and belt changes.
Total before machine work and common things like gaskets, oil pump, fluids: $3600.00 plus balancer, plus flywheel.

The Sensible side of you now goes out:
  1. You buy a JY 351- $350.00-500.00
  2. You use the Pistons you have currently
  3. You buy a cast steel Scat stroker crank to get the 351 to 393 c.i. -$ 320.00
  4. You buy a cast steel I beam 5.956 rod - $325.00
  5. You buy a good ( not great) 28 oz balancer -$100. ( not sfi approved, add another 100 for that)
  6. You scrounge and buy a great set of AFR/TFS heads- $1500.00
  7. Bearings ( the non-sensible version has them in it) -100.00
  8. You scrounge and buy a great 351 intake that will let you reuse your TB and rails $200.00
  9. You have to add -$300 to you machine bill for a balance job.
  10. You have to buy cam/lifters/pushrods for 351 to make it hydraulic roller. -$700-800.00

Boom ! 393 cubic inches that'll make 450 n/a all day long 4000.00 plus machine work, plus fluids. everything is new except Pistons.
Both of these combos are gonna tip the scales after machine work at 5 k probably. You really are hobbling yourself with this blower. If you put another stock 302 together, you will eventually be back here. If you are truly at 450 hp already, the extra stress the crank snout is having to deal with already means you are all over block capacity.

* if you want to hoard parts great! Buying stuff that costs 3-350.00 at a crack every month is a lot easier than buying a damn bare block that takes 6 months of saving just to get there. There are a whole bunch of 300.00 parts in that 351 build.
Find a running 351. Put it in the car that way,..drive the thing this year sans blower, and do it right the first time.
( Unless you want to have a nickname like I have)

Trust me. I am the poster child for doing things differently, and I get it. But if you keep walking the path you're on, you will be back here again. ( Hell, I may be back here again...I have blow by issues that are still fcking me.)

*Anddd edit...a 302xxx block hasn't been proven to be any damn better than any other 5.0. I have seen 5.0 blocks with the entire crank assembly blown out with the main girdle still bolted to the caps.
You make a good point mike, but i am using the Blower... and thats the end of it. I dont care if it limits the build, its getting used. Now this same displacement blower made over 600hp in the GT500 so i dont think im that crazy... If the crank and rods come through for me i can buy new pistons and be at a dart 347 for under 3k with my top end... the Boost calculator i use says 8psi on the 347. using my custom cam i have now and my current top end....
Now I have no friggin clue how much power this thing is actually making, with the conservative tune i am running I am able to keep up with SS camaro on the highway.. thats not too shabby.
I dont mind keeping it under the block power threshold, as long as the thing stays together. I have not broken a block yet and to do so we had to throw 250+ shot of nitrous at a 347ci 210cc runner headed 7200rpm engine... the car runs in the 5 second range and we got greedy in a grudge match. Im not doing anything near as violent or running the RPM we spin the race motor up to..

NOW this was my first combo idea before the stock block limiting power thing came to be such a big topic.... All from RPM
DG3-302 4340 forged steel crank int balanced $559
LG3-5090H 4340 H beam rods $338
My DSS Forged pistons and rings - already own
Damper and Fly wheel - lets call it $400
My current block or another with all the work done to it.... ??? OR a DSS lv20 Race block $1100