Low Dyno Numbers Help!
- Thread starter Travisriddle427
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I agree you need to degree the cam.... I put a E303 in mine with the ford racing timing chain set... I checked it dot to dot, and it was retarded abut 2-3 degree I believe... so I set the time chain to 4 degree advance and if I remember i'm showing 3 degree advance now.. (which I was told I would want to do 4 degrees advance anyway), I heard some cams have that advance built into them already but the e303 doesn't... so if I just installed it dot to dot my cam would of been retarded.
I wasn't going to degree it either, never done it before, but after reading all the posts on the mustang forms that you need too, I bought a wheel and the other stuff I needed and did it... glad I did... now hopefully I can get the motor in the car this summer and get it fired up...
I wasn't going to degree it either, never done it before, but after reading all the posts on the mustang forms that you need too, I bought a wheel and the other stuff I needed and did it... glad I did... now hopefully I can get the motor in the car this summer and get it fired up...
EDC
Founding Member
Valvetrain Tech Notes #1 --- "Dot to Dot"
“I installed it dot to dot.”
This is one of the most popular comments I hear after less than ideal results are seen when a camshaft installation is completed. Just the mentioning of this sends chills down my spine.
The proper installation of a camshaft and its peripheral valvetrain is one of the most important jobs an installer must do when maximizing the performance of any engine combination. Any short cuts or miscues in this regard, and the overall success of the project, and its ultimate performance, will definitely suffer.
How can something so simple be so problematic?
Let’s start with the basic premise that everyone can have a bad day at work. Who’s to say the crankshaft keyway was machined absolutely “dead on” when the machinist set it up? I mean, even a slight error of a degree or two is no big deal considering the thousands and thousands of engines out in the world. They run, don't they? Maybe it wasn’t even a bad day but something that is machined off the mean number but still within manufacturing tolerances. What's a degree or two among friends?
Now we have the next piece of the tolerance puzzle, the timing set. There are a series of variables that can occur with this component. The relationship of the keyway to the crankshaft sprocket teeth, the location of the cam dowel hole to the cam sprocket teeth and then there’s always the possibility of “both” items being off. Why worry? Well, if each facet is off in the same direction, it is a cumulative error that will change the engine's dynamics. That's why verifying the intake centerline as it relates to top dead center is very important.
When you're installing these two pieces to the engine, who’s to say they are so perfect, there’s no reason to check them?
Nothing is further from the truth. You'll never hear a professional engine builder say this. At least not one that knows the hows and whys of valvetrain importance. This is the type of attention to detail that separates the engine assemblers from the engine builders.
No camshaft should be just installed “dot to dot” if the installer is a professional!
Now the novice or the weekend mechanic might be able to justify doing a camshaft installation in this manner just because the tools required are not something a newbie has put the investment in. It's "almost" forgivable when this is spoken. However, when I hear his “dot to dot” comment from a shop that just charged a customer a lot of money to do the install, well, it definitely crosses the line and takes them off the referral list.
Take your time and verify everything. If you don't have the time, tools or talent to do it yourself, find a professional to do it for you. It's worth the effort!
“I installed it dot to dot.”
This is one of the most popular comments I hear after less than ideal results are seen when a camshaft installation is completed. Just the mentioning of this sends chills down my spine.
The proper installation of a camshaft and its peripheral valvetrain is one of the most important jobs an installer must do when maximizing the performance of any engine combination. Any short cuts or miscues in this regard, and the overall success of the project, and its ultimate performance, will definitely suffer.
How can something so simple be so problematic?
Let’s start with the basic premise that everyone can have a bad day at work. Who’s to say the crankshaft keyway was machined absolutely “dead on” when the machinist set it up? I mean, even a slight error of a degree or two is no big deal considering the thousands and thousands of engines out in the world. They run, don't they? Maybe it wasn’t even a bad day but something that is machined off the mean number but still within manufacturing tolerances. What's a degree or two among friends?
Now we have the next piece of the tolerance puzzle, the timing set. There are a series of variables that can occur with this component. The relationship of the keyway to the crankshaft sprocket teeth, the location of the cam dowel hole to the cam sprocket teeth and then there’s always the possibility of “both” items being off. Why worry? Well, if each facet is off in the same direction, it is a cumulative error that will change the engine's dynamics. That's why verifying the intake centerline as it relates to top dead center is very important.
When you're installing these two pieces to the engine, who’s to say they are so perfect, there’s no reason to check them?
Nothing is further from the truth. You'll never hear a professional engine builder say this. At least not one that knows the hows and whys of valvetrain importance. This is the type of attention to detail that separates the engine assemblers from the engine builders.
No camshaft should be just installed “dot to dot” if the installer is a professional!
Now the novice or the weekend mechanic might be able to justify doing a camshaft installation in this manner just because the tools required are not something a newbie has put the investment in. It's "almost" forgivable when this is spoken. However, when I hear his “dot to dot” comment from a shop that just charged a customer a lot of money to do the install, well, it definitely crosses the line and takes them off the referral list.
Take your time and verify everything. If you don't have the time, tools or talent to do it yourself, find a professional to do it for you. It's worth the effort!
Words to live by ed.
My curiosity got the better of me and I shot an email to the dyno shop in question, I just had to know what he knew or more accurate, what he saw on the screen, he told me he remembered the session and like the car owner was disappointed in the results, he said he suspected 'an internal engine' problem. Advancing the timing made no improvement. The a/f was good. He made no recomendation as to what was amiss because he was not involved in the build but timing issues were suspected.
The reference to the F cam was mearly an example of how easy it was to make 300 hp with the 5.0 h/c/i and supporting tb and LT headers in the past.
Travis needs to go back and degree the cam, check his valve adjustments and make sure he has no vacuum leaks.
And check for codes. A hot compression test and a leakdown test would help too.
My curiosity got the better of me and I shot an email to the dyno shop in question, I just had to know what he knew or more accurate, what he saw on the screen, he told me he remembered the session and like the car owner was disappointed in the results, he said he suspected 'an internal engine' problem. Advancing the timing made no improvement. The a/f was good. He made no recomendation as to what was amiss because he was not involved in the build but timing issues were suspected.
The reference to the F cam was mearly an example of how easy it was to make 300 hp with the 5.0 h/c/i and supporting tb and LT headers in the past.
Travis needs to go back and degree the cam, check his valve adjustments and make sure he has no vacuum leaks.
And check for codes. A hot compression test and a leakdown test would help too.
Wow! The OP has already has received good advice from his performance shop as well as here on Stangnet, now he just needs to gets out to his garage and gets to work.
Reddevil91
15 Year Member
- Mar 3, 2010
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Man a cam change sounds pretty difficult after reading all this. I was pondering if I could swap my heads and maybe do a cam swap but thinking this might be above me.
Many people with average mechanical skills have been successful, however the few that run in to issues need to be open minded about the many possible mistakes that can happen by either human error or bad parts in order to solve the problems. We are always here to help
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_9rUXYxAY0
Don't let this stuff deter you. It's not that bad. Unless something is wrong, Degreeing is just checking to see if something is wrong. I did it at 19 without any experience and without degreeing and everything worked out fine. Not saying to not degree. Just saying it's not that bad if a 19 y/o kid could do it.
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