Multiple Misfire Codes

08GT500

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Jul 12, 2018
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-Meant to add a few things..
-What year is your Pony, is it a recent buy?
-Coil input voltage measurement when cranking and running,
-Try hooking up a temporary Ground to the Block to battery using the (-) Neg Battery Terminal using a Jumper cable.
-Hook up a spark tester on a few Cylinder’s wires, tester base grounded to the Block & see if you can get a strong arc to reach 3/8”-1/2”. Starting and Running.
-TFI can be tested at Advanced Auto & similar chain stores for free.They generally fail entirely, Spark and Injector’s pulsed ground is controlled by it. Sometimes they get sensitive to temperature changes, still possible it may test bad.
-Whatever occurs, be certain to use heat sink compound on a clean surface when installing again (Dizzy (86’-93’) or on the heat sink, (94’-95’)).
-The Dizzy needs to be grounded, some lube or sealant applied can isolate the chassis from being grounded to the block. Simple continuity test from Battery Neg.(-) to Dizzy chassis.
-The PIP may have issues reading the Shutter wheel passing through for the #1 Cylinder if old, rusty, Corroded or wet..


Very basic..The PIP sends a signal to the EEC, EEC sends a signal to the TFI, controlling Timing...
Removing the SPOUT stops the EEC from controlling timing, it will only be where you set it (10-14 Deg.).. You’d mentioned 23 Degrees of advance at idle?
Some have actually pulled the SPOUT out & advanced the idle timing to about 25-30 Degrees, and it remains there at all RPM’s (EEC adds +16 Degrees to initial timing, but fluctuates it based on input). Usually done as they don’t have a Chip, and want more advance at high RPM’s. very bad move & better ways to do this, did your Car have a Spout installed when you bought it?
A 5 Spd? Motor Have any unusual lack of Torque when shifting gears?
-See what you find.
Happy Wrenchin’
-John
 
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cbxer55

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It was a minor edit. I only added "within 40 miles". No big change there. Most generally, I edit because I spot a spelling or grammar error that I need to fix. I should proof read before before hitting to save the post. LMAO!

Well, I guess I'll see about getting one of those scanners. But as of yesterday, no codes and all monitors are READY. I don't think it's the valvetrain, this car scoots really nicely. And no noise, quiet. Injector, maybe. I have been running a can of Berryman's B-12 every couple tanks. It's the most potent of the cleaners, MEK, Methanol, Acetone are the active ingredients. Stuff you don't want to spill on your paint. LOL!

Retime to see if what relocated? The P0302? It's not there anymore. Like I said, after keeping the tank filled with lower octane gas, the computer has no codes or PD codes showing at all. It had P0300PD showing briefly, but it also disappeared within two drives. Generally, when I drive this car, it's for more than 50 miles. Even going to work, I take the long way in and it results in 25 miles rather than the normal 7.

So, for right now, the computer is clean, no codes, all monitors READY. I'll be keeping my eye on it.
 
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cbxer55

Active Member
Jan 25, 2020
250
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Oklahoma
-Meant to add a few things..
-What year is your Pony, is it a recent buy?
-Coil input voltage measurement when cranking and running,
-Try hooking up a temporary Ground to the Block to battery using the (-) Neg Battery Terminal using a Jumper cable.
-Hook up a spark tester on a few Cylinder’s wires, tester base grounded to the Block & see if you can get a strong arc to reach 3/8”-1/2”. Starting and Running.
-TFI can be tested at Advanced Auto & similar chain stores for free.They generally fail entirely, Spark and Injector’s pulsed ground is controlled by it. Sometimes they get sensitive to temperature changes, still possible it may test bad.
-Whatever occurs, be certain to use heat sink compound on a clean surface when installing again (Dizzy (86’-93’) or on the heat sink, (94’-95’)).
-The Dizzy needs to be grounded, some lube or sealant applied can isolate the chassis from being grounded to the block. Simple continuity test from Battery Neg.(-) to Dizzy chassis.
-The PIP may have issues reading the Shutter wheel passing through for the #1 Cylinder if old, rusty, Corroded or wet..


Very basic..The PIP sends a signal to the EEC, EEC sends a signal to the TFI, controlling Timing...
Removing the SPOUT stops the EEC from controlling timing, it will only be where you set it (10-14 Deg.).. You’d mentioned 23 Degrees of advance at idle?
Some have actually pulled the SPOUT out & advanced the idle timing to about 25-30 Degrees, and it remains there at all RPM’s (EEC adds +16 Degrees to initial timing, but fluctuates it based on input). Usually done as they don’t have a Chip, and want more advance at high RPM’s. very bad move & better ways to do this, did your Car have a Spout installed when you bought it?
A 5 Spd? Motor Have any unusual lack of Torque when shifting gears?
-See what you find.
Happy Wrenchin’
-John

This post is a complete mystery to me. I've never mentioned anything about timing, have no idea how to even check it on these modern comuter controlled engines. And it's an automatic that I mainly shift manually. And no, no power loss on upshifts. This car scoots along so very nicely for a 4.0 V-6. I love it.

What the heck is a spout? The thing I use to put fuel system cleaner in the tank is a spout. LOL!

This post makes me think you're confusing me with someone else.
 

cbxer55

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Jan 25, 2020
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The fuel thing I mentioned. Almost all stations out here have separate nozzles for their various grades of fuel. So no mixing, right? Almost all no longer have 89, they have 87 with or without ethanol, and 91, all on separate nozzles.

The only exception being the place that sells the 93. His pumps are one nozzle pumps. And he has 87, 90 and 93. So the 87 is just 87, the 93 is just 93, but the 90 is a 50/50 mix of the two. I was saying that because if there is something in the 93 that my Mustang doesn't like, so much so that two gallons of it causes it to throw codes, then the 50/50 mix 90 octane will still have that stuff in it. More than two gallons if I fill the tank with it. No, I'll be avoiding that station for all my vehicles for awhile. Even the Ranger has P0171/174 lean codes showing that only popped up recently.

I'm now wondering if he is sourcing the 93 octane from a different place. He is the only place that sells it here, and he has to get it from another state. Could be, with all the oil things going on lately, he has had to get it from another source. Maybe the ingredients are different than what they've been in the past. I don't know, next time I go by there, I'll go in and have a conversation with him. Tell him what his fuel is doing to my vehicles. That I can't use it any more because it's causing my vehicles to throw codes.
 

cbxer55

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What's a TFI? Dizzy? You're throwing things at me that I know nothing about.

When I first bought the car, I had a very bad coolant leak one day, darn heater hose at the plastic up-pipe on the thermostat housing. Coolant everywhere, all over the front of the engine, top of it, just everywhere. I fixed it by inserting a metal pipe into the stupid plastic pipe, so the clamp can be tightened better. No more leak. But there may be coolant residue all over the (PIP ??) thing you mentioned? Other than that, the Mustang, like my Lightning, will not see rain, or snow, or salted roads. The old Ranger is my bad weather vehicle.
 

cbxer55

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After putting the diffuser on under the rear end, went out driving. Around 50 miles, both highway and hauling ass around the lake. Checked the scanner, no codes. clean. Will be heading out to the lake again here shortly. Need to clean the thing and get a few pictures of the diffuser with clean fenders. LMAO!
 

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08GT500

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This post is a complete mystery to me. I've never mentioned anything about timing, have no idea how to even check it on these modern comuter controlled engines. And it's an automatic that I mainly shift manually. And no, no power loss on upshifts. This car scoots along so very nicely for a 4.0 V-6. I love it.

What the heck is a spout? The thing I use to put fuel system cleaner in the tank is a spout. LOL!

This post makes me think you're confusing me with someone else.
What's a TFI? Dizzy? You're throwing things at me that I know nothing about.

When I first bought the car, I had a very bad coolant leak one day, darn heater hose at the plastic up-pipe on the thermostat housing. Coolant everywhere, all over the front of the engine, top of it, just everywhere. I fixed it by inserting a metal pipe into the stupid plastic pipe, so the clamp can be tightened better. No more leak. But there may be coolant residue all over the (PIP ??) thing you mentioned? Other than that, the Mustang, like my Lightning, will not see rain, or snow, or salted roads. The old Ranger is my bad weather vehicle.
[/QUOTE]
LMAO! Good Lord!! Nooooo, not intended for you!!...a new member’s having an ignition problem with his Foxbody, I’d bounced back and forth & erroneously typed this up here rather than there, sorry for throwing you, lol!
Never heard of the TFI, SPOUT? (Gas Spout applies, not so much here, lol)).
Dime explanation (who knows, you may get a Fox someday!)..
86’-93’, 94’-95’ Mustang GT 5.0’s....
The PIP (Mag.PIckuP within the Dizzy) utilizes a rotating steel shutter wheel for referencing both Ignition & Injector pulses, sends this signal to the EEC.
The EEC receives that signal &.applies its programming & Sensory Data, sends a signal to the TFI to trigger spark advance/retard.
Removing the SPOUT (2 pin Component) interrupts the EECs decisively modified spark timing, so until it’s reinstalled, the motor will remain receiving only the 10-14 Degree(+/-) base timing. Not so good!
The SPOUT needs to be removed when setting base timing, and reinstalled once base on timing is set.
These components along with the Coil take a real pounding, & do fail from time to time. More-so when non OE (aftermarket) parts.
96’ Mustang GT’s swap to the Modular 4.6l (SOHC 16 Valve) marked the end of those systems and application of DIS & became OBD-2.
Anyways, Mustang looks great! I think you’re right about talking to the Station owner, he’ll have the MSDS sheet on that Fuel, and the manifest. Interesting the Ranger is also now showing signs, I’d be cautious with that fuel, other additives
and what the Methanol levels are.
Could even try to pry out the MFG’s name, ask them for further information. I had mentioned the gas sources may have changed, it would be interesting to post something about that fuel to see if anyone else experienced issues- think?
I’d be careful about running it in the Lightning, being FI, things occur really fast with those platforms, by the time you saw a CEL it could do a number on the motor.
If you want to see what the Timing is on any one of those vehicles, get that Scantool & it will show the Timing, the advance rate & what precisely occurs when you run a little 93 in the Mustang, every sensors feedback you can review later second by second.
One Data-logging test where It’ll only record when the CEL pops up, and a few minutes before & after. It’s almost like not having a Socket set in your Toolbox, more a necessity than luxury these days.
Double checked this, I’d sent it to the right person, lmao!
Best!
-John
 
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08GT500

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After putting the diffuser on under the rear end, went out driving. Around 50 miles, both highway and hauling ass around the lake. Checked the scanner, no codes. clean. Will be heading out to the lake again here shortly. Need to clean the thing and get a few pictures of the diffuser with clean fenders. LMAO!
Hi, you’d also asked..’Dizzy’ is just a slang acronym for the Distributor...If you ever get a Foxbody Mustang you’ll be ahead in regards to the Ignition system, lol!
Things certainly have changed.... I LIKE curving Dizzy’s with dual Points, don’t see an excessive amount of that anymore..only way to see any ignition timing now is via a Scantool, or when Tuning a Car within a Program for a Chip or EEC reflash.
Make any headway with the Fuel station guy? Feed him a few Beers, tongue may loosen, lmao.
Best!
-John
 
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cbxer55

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Went by there today, but he was too busy for me to want to bother him. Needed five gallons, so put in five of his 90 octane. See what transpires. I'm beginning to think it's not a fuel problem, but a full throttle problem. Was out driving yesterday, got into it all the way from a stop. About third gear, the check engine light started blinking. When I backed out of it, it went away. Pulled over and scanned it real quick. P0300pd and P0302pd. I know the 302 is cylinder two. Didn't set the CEL and both pd's were gone by the time I got home. Will pull plugs tomorrow, specifically two, and see what they are telling me.

Was driving it today and did some 3/4 and 7/8 throttle pulls, nothing happened. But full throttle, the motor symbol blinks at me, then goes away when I back out of it. I put some fuel injection cleaner in the tank today when I got the 90 octane. Berryman's B-12, the nasty stuff. Methanol, MEK and Acetone. Don't spill it on your paint.

Anyhow, time for a second oil change and will do the fuel filter as well. I have no idea if it's ever been changed before. The guy seemed like he cared for the car, said it was his daughters and damned if he wanted her stranded somewhere if maintenance would prevent it. But most people overlook the poor fuel filter. I've also got a fuel pressure gauge I can hook up under the hood, see what the story is there.

One of my two motorcycles is very sensitive to the fuel filter. If it gets slightly plugged, it will not accept full throttle, will baulk, will die when coming to a stop. I've had to change it four times in the 14 years I've owned the bike. PITA. Have to drain the tank and remove it to get to the pump on the bottom. Remove pump to get to the filter attached to the pump. And the damn filter is $75.00. No aftermarket alternative that I am aware of, have to buy it from Suzuki. GRRRRRR!!!!!!!
 
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08GT500

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Hi,
Ok, as I’d said- if you have an underlying issue, it will (sooner or later) reveal itself. You don’t want to wait until that occurs.. I’d revert back to the 87 Octane fuel that caused no issues, see if things stay clear for a week straight. If not- read below. I won’t say it about a good Scantool again, lol!
You will realize how much you you were Handicapped without one, once you do have one.
Back into troubleshooting mode..
Flashing CEL every second or so repeatedly on most every OBD-2 Vehicle under acceleration indicates a misfire.
It’s Injector or Spark, also mechanical (Cyl, Piston, Valves) or a Sensor. There can be a hundred reasons for a misfire.
Can you snap a pic of the engine compartment? It may help.
How are your plug wires routed? They should have wire dividers on them, loom over wires where needed & routed away from any spots they can arc to.(Cover studs, Oil Dipstick, etc.).
The ‘waste spark’ Coil system pairs any issue in one Cylinder to two Cylinders (Coil fires 2 Cylinders at a time on the 4.0 in lieu of one). Cyl’s 4/3, 6/2, 5/1 are PAIRED on the Coil pack circuit.
So, an issue with your Coil, itself.. is not likely, but the wiring checked & connector to it should be cleaned with contact cleaner, connections checked, reterminated.
Plug wires terminated with Electrical grease on both ends.
Pull the car in a dark garage, or run at night & slowly look for secondary ignition Arc’s. Old-but effective...
The MAF sensor should be cleaned with CRC MAF Cleaner, a few good no contact blasts.
Air cleaner is clean, not a dusty environment?
Have any exhaust leaks on that bank? Realize it may be difficult to hear, evidence of carbon around a gasket is a sure fire sign.
The 02 Sensor on that bank should be cleaned if Carbonized, you won’t find if the sensors an issue without a live Data reading Scantool, there are things that won’t throw a CEL until late stage failure. O2 Sensor’s one of them. Will also show short & long term fuel trim (Correction by EEC to hit target A/F ratio). Will also show fuel pressure.
You’re checking Mechanically? I install a F.P. gauge on the rail permanently, and a mechanical oil pressure gauge, every Car.
- By monitoring LTFT and comparing bank 1 and 2 at idle and under load, you can determine the condition of the O2 sensors. Without benefit of a good Scantool, replacing O2 sensors is guesswork or based upon mileage.- (100K+)
Wires going to the 02 should be checked from harness to sensor for damage from routing (Melting), know you’d replaced an 02, it on that bank?
Throttle position sensor can be checked
The EGR would not generally cause an issue with one Cylinder, but you can rule it out by disconnection both the electrical & vacuum connections, plug off the vacuum line so there’s no leak, it will likely throw a code, but you’re doing diagnostics, clear it once reconnected.
Wiggle testing the applicable connectors, wiring, connections is a good idea-only takes one.
DTC’s are a result of an issue, not the issue. Every code thrown since this began should be jotted down & referenced from.
This fuel testing may be harmful to your motor, if it’s throwing codes, it’s suggesting that. Shouldn’t have to do this at your expense, I’m not certain why it’s doing what it is, but seems something’s Fishy there...The answer would be to stay within the octane level the MFG recommends, but you shouldn’t be seeing issues by going higher for certain.
Your Ranger also began showing signs of issues directed towards fuel....
Look for anything that may have been disturbed the last time you changed the fuel filter, when you change this one. There is still the potential for crud buildup within the fuel system, even before the filter. Was the filter loaded up last time you changed it?
Fuel pressure test is a good idea, thought it was already checked(?), the ability to remain at the right pressure under a load is just as important.
Talk soon!
-John
 

splinterddt

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Okay, update on progress (or lack there of). Still getting P300, 301, 302, and 303 codes. Made sure plug wires were in correct order. I checked voltage at the injectors, and they all test within specs. I pulled the injectors and visually inspected them, and didn't see any issues. So to eliminate them as an issue, I swapped sides when I reinstalled the injectors. Still get the same codes. Getting a P174 code too. Been only using car when I had to over the last month while trying to research the issue. Last week car seemed to run a little worse. Getting a P175 code now too. I pulled plugs and the drivers side show little signs of use while passenger side has a little soot. Did a compression test: drivers side all around 155 psi, but passenger side all 105 psi. Wet test only added about 5 psi across the board. I don't find any info on this particular list of issues. But one suggestion is that may have skipped a tooth on the timing belt. Anyone have any thoughts?
 
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cbxer55

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I put new coils, plugs and wires in the thing back when I bought it. Accel coils, JBA wires and Motorcraft recommended plugs. I reused the loom dividers. I used the correct grease on both ends of the plug wires. I don't think they're touching anything, I was careful with that. The fuel I bought today was 90 octane. So we'll see.

That scanner, it can be used on all three of my Fords? It's not like a tuner and married to a particular vehicle? and therefore you have to have one for each vehicle.

Fuel filter, I've never changed it. Can't recall that I said I did. Will do soonest, and will keep it, let it dry, and cut it apart and examine it internally.
 

cbxer55

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Gets screwier and screwier. Told you the P0302pd came up yesterday, briefly, during some spirited driving. It was still there when I put the 90 octane and the fuel system cleaner in early this afternoon. Drove it to work, took the 30 mile long way in, rather than the direct 7 mile route. Drove it like I meant it, stomped it a few times. Drove it home the 10 mile way, ave it some stomp as well. Scanned it upon return home, nothing. Clean.

Since I had that 302 code and the blinking light, briefly, I'm still going to at least pull that plug. Make sure it looks good, nothing funny happening. If it looks good, then I'm going to do the fuel filter this weekend, with the next oil change. See what transpires after that.
 

08GT500

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I put new coils, plugs and wires in the thing back when I bought it. Accel coils, JBA wires and Motorcraft recommended plugs. I reused the loom dividers. I used the correct grease on both ends of the plug wires. I don't think they're touching anything, I was careful with that. The fuel I bought today was 90 octane. So we'll see.

That scanner, it can be used on all three of my Fords? It's not like a tuner and married to a particular vehicle? and therefore you have to have one for each vehicle.

Fuel filter, I've never changed it. Can't recall that I said I did. Will do soonest, and will keep it, let it dry, and cut it apart and examine it internally.
Hi,
Yes, The handheld Scantool I’d listed & most all others can be used on any OBD-2 Vehicle, as many Vehicles as you want. ScanTools are Read-only, they do not allow you to alter or accidentally affect anything negatively. So, no worries regarding that either.
Only handheld Tuners with abilities to alter the Computers programming values are restricted to one Vehicle, or “Married” .
BTW, I’ll address you with your Screen-name in the posts I send from now on, as the Member who started the thread is back, this confused me previously as you both have similar issues & vehicles.
He ‘d changed his fuel filter before- not you. lol!
Ok, Best!
-John
 
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08GT500

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Okay, update on progress (or lack there of). Still getting P300, 301, 302, and 303 codes. Made sure plug wires were in correct order. I checked voltage at the injectors, and they all test within specs. I pulled the injectors and visually inspected them, and didn't see any issues. So to eliminate them as an issue, I swapped sides when I reinstalled the injectors. Still get the same codes. Getting a P174 code too. Been only using car when I had to over the last month while trying to research the issue. Last week car seemed to run a little worse. Getting a P175 code now too. I pulled plugs and the drivers side show little signs of use while passenger side has a little soot. Did a compression test: drivers side all around 155 psi, but passenger side all 105 psi. Wet test only added about 5 psi across the board. I don't find any info on this particular list of issues. But one suggestion is that may have skipped a tooth on the timing belt. Anyone have any thoughts?
Hi Splinterddt,
If you’re getting low Compression on one bank (105lbs within 5-7 % of each other) & 155lbs on the opposite bank within the same tolerance, it’s certainly a mechanical issue.
No blown head gasket or Valves, Rings would show losses so accurately, so yes- sounds like it jumped time. Idle would be rough, acceleration largely affected.
Have you changed timing belts previously ?
-John
BTW, this is an ‘Interference’ motor, meaning if it jumps time too far, or the belt breaks entirely, it will indeed crash Valves into Pistons.
I suggest abstaining from turning the motor over, pulling your valve cover to check installed valve stem height to see if that occurred, and then doing a Timing belt swap.
Do you plan on doing this yourself, if confirmed?
If you need further diagnostic means, just post it & I’ll list the best ways to confirm this.
 
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cbxer55

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Ever since I put the 90 octane with the injector in the tank, car's been behaving fine the last three days. Been driving it on average 50 or so miles a day, giving it some stomp, no codes at all. Guess I'll just stay with what's working.
 
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08GT500

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Ever since I put the 90 octane with the injector in the tank, car's been behaving fine the last three days. Been driving it on average 50 or so miles a day, giving it some stomp, no codes at all. Guess I'll just stay with what's working.
Hi,
So what did you find? Interested.. You’ll like this....what Did I find.......?
I found (Another) CAR. GARAGE find, Original 71 Mach 1, 351C 4bbl FMX Trans, matching numbers, orig paint, Only thing not original is a 9”rear ::::pout(My Arse!):::. Needs floor Pan (one 1” hole with a tad of surface rust, checked for filler & couldn’t find anything with the Magnet test, then , 302 Stock ratio was 3.0:1, Yeeesh!
9”Rear is the only non AoE part, motors intake, valvecovers 'resistance finagling him down to 5.5K! Older gentleman, working on his own pony is just too much, as you can see, it’s getting in the way, know the feeling & it sucks! He wants it to be where it belongs, on the road, raising hell (within reason) and going to shows..
Holy Shiatsu I’m a Psyched individual today, my eldest daughter said she wanted it & I growled at here like a Lion fighting for the entire share of the kill.lol.
“Of COURSE you can have it, Sweetie.....once they PLANT me..”
(Pic-1)351C with a few non OE add-in’s
Clearly an obstruction to his primary project.
(Pic-2
Matching VIN’s 1’ I 351C with an FMX , NOT a 4 Speed...
(Pic-3)
Entire body looks like this, frame is in darn good shape, few mounts a little dry rotted. I’ll replace everything with NOS parts.(Which comes with the car.)..Hes got 351’s, 42
(pic-4) ram Air hood, front valance, everything works, lot of work to be done, but we’ll worth it.
As this is one Genre’ I’ve not ever owned or fiddled with, & fairly good upfront. Any thoughts, impressions from someone who’s familiar with the specific car? anyone?:shrug:
Thanks!!
-John
BTW, Trans is an FMX, it’s an intermediate level between the C4 & C6, downside is it’s heavier than a C4, it’s CAST IRON, but capable of high HP/TQ input. I’m not familiar with them, but once I’d received the paperwork, realized it’s been modified, a relative told me it’s a boat anchor, only
really useful if strongly
built specific for high performance. Well, it has 5,700$ in parts, 1100$ in labor on the receipt from a shop in California that is one of the rare places that builds them, that was in 1998.
A manual valve body, bands, bearings...down to high strength G8 bolts, a 3,500RPM stall. We’ll see when I get it apart enough to estimate the motors build, with 4V Cleveland heads, a 7QT Pan, a solid roller Cam, and 11.7:1 est CR, this guy meant Business. Cannot wait time confirm.
Was loaded with oil within Cylinders, and prepped for long term storage, I’m really hanging on the edge of my seat!
Also came with a 429CG, matching #’s, (NOT TO THE CAR), but likely pricey anyway...
Hmmmmm
 

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cbxer55

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Someone must've known how to drive, that thing still has what looks to be an intact front spoiler. They usually fall victim to steep driveways, etc. if the person driving is careless. Nice find. What's the white Mustang next to it in the last photo?
 

cbxer55

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Well, the latest is the car is still behaving. Put 9 gallons of 89 in yesterday, drove it for a bit over 100 miles, no codes or pending codes. Guess if it's not broke, don't fix it. ;-)
 
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08GT500

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Massachusetts
Hi,
Yes, not broken- leave it be, lol! The other Car’s a 70’ Mach 1, 351C 2V, 4 Speed.
One I bought was 71’, (coming tomorrow!!) same deal but Auto, built w/4V head’s, and a second pair to boot- all original parts come with the car.
Has what appears to be a 9”, but much beefier, may be a Moser. Not a Spool, Discs, It’s build solid, end to end, interior needs some work, no rust, I looked everywhere, lol!
Yep, Spoiler’s intact, said the same thing, lol. needs a front bumper.
Think these will breathe ok? LOL OMG, pic #4 really “Nails” it, lmao!!
 

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