My goal for a turbo build, what would it take?

[SpectralSamurai]

I'm really not sure where to get solid answers on this. I've been browsing the forums for awhile checking out different setups and questions on turbocharging and the expected stats. So far, I have not really found any satisfactory answers, so I'll put it out here. I'll warn you up front, this is a long list of questions.

I'm currently running an 88 LX Coupe, a4ld. What would it take and appx. how much money would it take to get Low/mid 10's in the 1/4 mile and Autocross/Rally quality handling? Roll cage is a must, but how much is necessary? I would be going manual transmission, the question becomes should I go 4 or 5 speed (or even 6)? I would also be swapping the 8.8 rear onto it, what gear ratio would be optimal for the setup I have so far described? Is the 8.8 rear even the best option?

Good ride quality is by my definition stiff and responsive. I want to feel connected to the road, not floating above it; spritely as opposed to the overly large and sluggish feeling it has in stock form. I would probably lower it roughly 2 inches as well, perhaps more depending.

I would more than likely be looking to switch to a DOHC design, the popular version of which seems to be the Volvo head swap, basically I want as high flow as I can get, since the stock head arguably seems to be the worst part of the engine. If that could be accomplished with the SOHC, then so be it. What pistons are best (forged I know, but any particular brand/design?). Does anybody make an aftermarket crankshaft for this engine? If so, how many designs are there and how much would it benefit me? What about boring and stroking? What kind or rev limit can that engine have? I would likely be doing a complete rebuild on it. When I am finished, I want the car to look like it just rolled off the line, and drive like a race car.

I would be upgrading the alternator to a high amperage version, probably in the 150-180 amp range. On the subject of electronics, I would like to eliminate the stock computer. Thus far, it has proven to be a rather poorly designed machine and I wish to get rid of it. What would that involve? What about the O2 sensor, TPS, etc.? Can they be bypassed or effectively incorporated into an alternate design? Would it be more powerful/efficient to run distributor or DIS? I believe EFI is the best method of fueling for a balance of power and efficiency, is it? What about multi-port EFI? What about schematics, would a factory manual include those?

The last part would be the turbo itself. What kind should I be using and around what boost? In all likelihood, the stock turbo wouldn't be a suitable match for the engine, or would it? What about twin turbocharging with smaller than stock turbos? What about the throttle body itself? Can it be replaced with a more powerful version? Would the TB from a 5.0 be useful? Cooling would be likely be a front mount IC, but I might look into water cooling. Either way, how much would I need?

Chassis modifications. What kind would I need? Subframe more than likely, anything else or would it be ok stock?

Other than various interior questions, I think that's it. I don't know alot about engines or performance, but I'm trying to learn. If some questions seem redundant or downright foolish, please go easy on me.

So that's everything. I think an old boss had it right when I asked him a similar question and he said "Yeah, I understand. You want to take a Pontiac and turn it into a Ferrari!" Car preference has changed, but I guess the old goal still remains. I want a killer car, and I'm pretty certain it can be had cheaper than a Ferrari or even new Mustang could be had for. Approxcimately how much would those mods cost? Which of them would be necceassary or even remotely useful? How much would labor for it cost? I'm guessing time to complete would depend largely on how much money one can sink into it.

I know I don't have alot of posts here, but I hope to get many responses to this list of questions. Any and all help is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

Dan

 

[spook]

5.0 throttle bodies can be used, but an adapter plate is needed. Get subframe connectors, roll cage, bigger wheels with better tires (5-lug swap), maybe coilovers, panhard bar, camber/caster plates, and definitely polyurethane bushings. As for the turbo, I imagine a T3/T4 would be good. It seems to be the one most people use. For the head, I'd look into getting an Esslinger head. The Volvo head is a big project. Ask MikeSVOR about it.

That is the extent of my knowledge. Hope any of it helped.

 

[Brantley]

Wow, lots of questions all at once, but I know how you feel. Wasn't long ago since I was searching for the answers to many of those questions. I'll comment on the items that I have knowlege or opinion on.

6 speed is a bit much, IMHO.. I race autox, and mine's a 5spd T5 with a 3.55 rear end. Soon I will be swapping back out to 3.73. Any lower and I think I'd be shifting more than I'd prefer. With a 6 speed, you would need a pretty low differential ratio in order to have any power on the interstate. The 6th gear is basically a 2nd overdrive, however, if you truely are making the power you're aiming for, it may be ok. I'm not sure how that would do for drag racing, tho. I think you'd probably loose too much time shifting.

Ride quality.. I feel the same as you. I want to be able to feel out my car. It's getting there. I think you are definately going to want to go wtih coil overs. Like spook said, go with a panhard bar.. also, maybe traction arms, a good set of caster/camber plates, big sway bars, aftermarket lower control arms, poly bushings, strut tower brace if intake setup allows, and some good quality full length subframe connectors. The subs alone make a nice difference as long as they have enough contact with the body.

Brakes - do yourself a favor and go ahead and upgrade to a 5 lug 4 wheel disc setup. You'll be able to run 13" Cobra brakes and I think the largest rears are abotu 11", but I can't remember at the moment. The 5 lug setup gives you many wheel options.. basically any 94+ Mustang wheel will fit, as well as several other models.

Head - While the Volve DOHC head would be awesome (as well as a high cool factor), I think you could do better for the same or less $$. The Esslinger Aluminum street head would be a great choice. If you were going all out and were making your own manifolds, you could go with the crazy high flowing Esslinger Arca head.

Cam - I have my eye on teh new Esslinger street cam or a custom grind from Schnieder. I haven't made up my mind yet; either would do me a world of good. I need to move on from this Ranger roller cam. For your goals, I think I would do some heavy research on the topic and go with a fairly agressive custom grind. There are other options out there, but I have not really looked at them.

Block - I believe Race Engineering makes aftermarket cranks for our engines, but I don't think you'll have any problems from the stock crank. They are pretty tough. However, RE does also sell 2.5L stroker cranks. Be ready to get a loan for one of those, tho. If you want a 2.5L stroker, look for a 98+ Ranger crank. If at all possible, do not bore the block. The cylinder walls are not very thick. There have been a few members at TurboFord.org that pushed the limits on a bored block (either 0.030 and 0.040) and have wound up cracking it. If strength is a concern, I would get hard block (I think that's the name), which is a cement-like substance that fills in part of the water jackets. A few members at TF.org have used this and have not had any cooling issues.

Computer - I am not so convinced the stock computers are total crap. Personally I am leaning toward the EEC tuner route once I get to the point of exceeding the stock computer's cababilities. There are aftermarket options; I think SDS is the main one.. may be wrong on that. Do a search on TurboFord. Definately stay EFI, IMHO. Fuel economy is/should probably not be a concern for you at this level of performance. I am estimating that I'm somewhere between 230 and 245rwhp, and I'm consistently getting 28 to 30 mpg on the highway. At worst, you'll probably see 24, but I would think that's a pretty extreme case. Don't worry about fuel efficiency.. these engines are already good at that.

Turbo - there's so many choices here.. I don't know how much you know about turbos, but you really need to read up on exactly how they work, how the different wheel sizes and housing sizes affect performance, etc, etc. Be sure to learn how to read a compressor map. I created a calculator to making it easier to read compressor maps, but you still should learn how to do the calculations so that you know what's going on and how everything works. (Click here for the calculator) That being said.. if you wanna run 10s in the quarter, you're gonna need a hybrid of some sort, or possibly more than that. Personally I am looking at the Holset turbos that come on the Dodge Cummins engines. They are very efficient and flow gobs of air. The HY35w is good for over 500 HP, which should be plenty. Spool time is a bit slow, but not really bad. However, keep in mind that a slow spool time does not make for fun autox racing. (I would know). Slow spool can somewhat be offset by a lower differential ratio, but that only helps to some extent, and you'll be shifting more. It's a trade-off, you gotta decide what's more important for you. Many people on TF have talked about putting twin turbos on the 2.3, but personally I don't think this is all that great of an idea. It'd be cool, but I think that would just make things too complicated - it works great with one turbo. But try it if you wish, and let us know how it works!

For your desired power output, a larger throttle body would probably be beneficial. Even for lower output setups, they provide better throttle response. My view is that I don't think it will hurt. A commonly used 65mm TB is from the T'bird SuperCoupes. They are pretty cheap and don't take a lot of work to adapt them to our intakes.

How much woudl all this cost? I don't want to think about it! Be ready to lay down some bones, especially for quality suspension components. In the end, it will be worth it, but be warned!

Good luck, and keep us posted on your project once you begin.

 

[i4power]

First off, before I answer these questions, I want to ask one thing. Is this car going to be your daily driver? I hope not, because a 10-second 2.3 with as stripped interior and hot suspension won't be too fun to daily drive.

I'm currently running an 88 LX Coupe, a4ld. What would it take and appx. how much money would it take to get Low/mid 10's in the 1/4 mile and Autocross/Rally quality handling? Roll cage is a must, but how much is necessary? I would be going manual transmission, the question becomes should I go 4 or 5 speed (or even 6)? I would also be swapping the 8.8 rear onto it, what gear ratio would be optimal for the setup I have so far described? Is the 8.8 rear even the best option?

The cost really depends on what you buy, and where you buy it from. You could go as low as junkyard parts, or burn massive sums of cash by buying from catalogs and speed shops.

To get a 2.3 in the low 10's, you most likely won't be able to have an autocross car. I'm willing to bet that a lot of good launch traction is lost in a road suspension. I don't speak from experience, just my thought.

For the transmission, I would use a beefed-up close-ratio T5. There are several companies that will replace the internals of the transmission with super-strong parts that can handle upwards of 700hp/700ft-lbs torque. The 8.8" rear will be more than good enough, because the 2.3 doesn't really put enough torque (compared to a 5.0) to really break it. I would upgrade the differential, however. 4.10, I would imagine, would be more than good enough.

Good ride quality is by my definition stiff and responsive. I want to feel connected to the road, not floating above it; spritely as opposed to the overly large and sluggish feeling it has in stock form. I would probably lower it roughly 2 inches as well, perhaps more depending.

Check out Steeda, Kenny Brown, HPM, etc. for your various suspension needs. Or, you can just pull parts from other model stangs and build it junkyard-style. That is what I would recommend if you are on a budget. Mustang Parts Specialties sells 5-lug, 4 wheel disc brake conversion kits (GT or Cobra), which I would highly recommend doing.

I would more than likely be looking to switch to a DOHC design, the popular version of which seems to be the Volvo head swap, basically I want as high flow as I can get, since the stock head arguably seems to be the worst part of the engine. If that could be accomplished with the SOHC, then so be it. What pistons are best (forged I know, but any particular brand/design?). Does anybody make an aftermarket crankshaft for this engine? If so, how many designs are there and how much would it benefit me? What about boring and stroking? What kind or rev limit can that engine have? I would likely be doing a complete rebuild on it. When I am finished, I want the car to look like it just rolled off the line, and drive like a race car.

A DOHC setup would be far too difficult for all but the most experienced machinists and motorheads. I would steer away from that idea unless you know someone who can really help you out. It doesn't just "swap" or "bolt on", because the coolant areas don't match up on the 2.3, as well as you would have to fabricate a custom timing system, and custom intake/exhaust manifolds. It would be awesome if it could be done (MikeSVOR is working on this).

A much better alternative to a head swap is definitely Esslinger's aluminum D-port head. It out-flows even the best ported iron head. Of course, you can port it for even better performance. Esslinger also offers various cams, cranks, rods, pistons, etc. for the little 2.3.

I would be upgrading the alternator to a high amperage version, probably in the 150-180 amp range. On the subject of electronics, I would like to eliminate the stock computer. Thus far, it has proven to be a rather poorly designed machine and I wish to get rid of it. What would that involve? What about the O2 sensor, TPS, etc.? Can they be bypassed or effectively incorporated into an alternate design? Would it be more powerful/efficient to run distributor or DIS? I believe EFI is the best method of fueling for a balance of power and efficiency, is it? What about multi-port EFI? What about schematics, would a factory manual include those?

The Holley Commander 950 is exactly what you are looking for. There are also some really good hacks for the ol' EEC IV, such as the TwEECer.

The last part would be the turbo itself. What kind should I be using and around what boost? In all likelihood, the stock turbo wouldn't be a suitable match for the engine, or would it? What about twin turbocharging with smaller than stock turbos? What about the throttle body itself? Can it be replaced with a more powerful version? Would the TB from a 5.0 be useful? Cooling would be likely be a front mount IC, but I might look into water cooling. Either way, how much would I need?

For the turbo, the best-matched setup is a T3/T4 50 trim, and whatever A/R you would want (.48, .63, and .82 are the most common i've seen), depending on RPM requirements. This turbo can flow between 350 and 400 horsepower, which would be good enough for 11's with a good driver.

Twin turbo is never a good idea on an inline engine, as there is only one exhaust manifold. Besides, I don't think that 2.3 liters is enough displacement to spool two turbos. You are talking only 1.15 liters per turbo, in that case.

40Bob will mount and port-match a 65mm throttle body to a 2.3's intake manifold. He also makes a custom intake manifold. http://www.40bob.com/

For intercooling, I don't know of too many good options. You could probably get you a really good Spearco part, but those run at least a $1000, I believe. Mike built his own 3-core intercooler out of 3 volvo cores, for CHEAP. I would recommend doing something similar to this if you've got the connections to do so (welding and fabricating end-tanks is requied to do this).

Chassis modifications. What kind would I need? Subframe more than likely, anything else or would it be ok stock?

Again, check out the companies I listed above under suspension, or pick up a copy of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords for some more options.



Hope that helps a little.

- Chris

 

[SpectralSamurai]

First off, before I answer these questions, I want to ask one thing. Is this car going to be your daily driver? I hope not, because a 10-second 2.3 with as stripped interior and hot suspension won't be too fun to daily drive.

Says who?

The cost really depends on what you buy, and where you buy it from. You could go as low as junkyard parts, or burn massive sums of cash by buying from catalogs and speed shops.

Yeah, I can understand that. It will probably wind up being a Frankenstang, anything useful I can get from junkyards and restore, I will, anything else, I'll have to get elsewhere.

To get a 2.3 in the low 10's, you most likely won't be able to have an autocross car. I'm willing to bet that a lot of good launch traction is lost in a road suspension. I don't speak from experience, just my thought.

I'm leaning more toward a rally setup, I have more fun with complex manuevers and handling than I do just running a straight line; but who's to say that just because you have a rally setup means you can't run a good 1/4? The 10 second example was just a convenient way of getting across about how fast I want it to be.

For the transmission, I would use a beefed-up close-ratio T5. There are several companies that will replace the internals of the transmission with super-strong parts that can handle upwards of 700hp/700ft-lbs torque. The 8.8" rear will be more than good enough, because the 2.3 doesn't really put enough torque (compared to a 5.0) to really break it. I would upgrade the differential, however. 4.10, I would imagine, would be more than good enough.

Where can I look up information on how the different gear ratios affect how the car drives? What about a full breakdown of the gear ratios gear by gear?

Check out Steeda, Kenny Brown, HPM, etc. for your various suspension needs. Or, you can just pull parts from other model stangs and build it junkyard-style. That is what I would recommend if you are on a budget. Mustang Parts Specialties sells 5-lug, 4 wheel disc brake conversion kits (GT or Cobra), which I would highly recommend doing.

Yes, 5 lug rotors are definately in the plan, as was mentioned before, alot more wheel options that way.

A DOHC setup would be far too difficult for all but the most experienced machinists and motorheads. I would steer away from that idea unless you know someone who can really help you out. It doesn't just "swap" or "bolt on", because the coolant areas don't match up on the 2.3, as well as you would have to fabricate a custom timing system, and custom intake/exhaust manifolds. It would be awesome if it could be done (MikeSVOR is working on this).

I know it can be done, I've seen some pictures on car domain about someone who has done that with their Merkur. Assuming the dyno sheet is true, he's currently got ~485 HP. I know the DOHC doesn't bolt on and fabrication is required. What I would like to know is what kind of specifications I should look for, as well as flow rates achieved by DOHC vs. SOHC heads. I have seen the ARCA head from Esslinger, and the D port head, but what kind of performance am I really looking at there? What kind of numbers are involved in flow? CFM? Something else? Where can I get details about that?

A much better alternative to a head swap is definitely Esslinger's aluminum D-port head. It out-flows even the best ported iron head. Of course, you can port it for even better performance. Esslinger also offers various cams, cranks, rods, pistons, etc. for the little 2.3.

I looked through their entire online catalog last night, and saw alot of things. Right now I need to figure out what kind of cam and crank I would need. I'm going for a fast revving engine with a top end of roughly 7k, maybe 8. I want the power to come in around 1300, and keep going. Basically, I want it to come in fast and hard and not let up until I eased the throttle down, but I'm also not looking to be running 3-4 k on the highway, so you could say I'm also wanting it to run steady once it gets up to speed around 2k RPM.

The Holley Commander 950 is exactly what you are looking for. There are also some really good hacks for the ol' EEC IV, such as the TwEECer.

What about completely replacing the computer? I had planned on learning how the engine was set up (vacuum lines, electronics), as well as the interior electronics, stripping everything and replacing it to my standards. I would be fabricating a new guage face and be using largely, if not entirely, aftermarket gauges. I really don't know if the EEC IV is designed for the end goal I have in mind, so that's why I ask. As far as the Holley goes, are you talking carbed or something else (I only know holley for carbs, but I don't know alot, that's why I ask). Right now I'm partial to MP/EFI, mostly because of efficiency issues.

For the turbo, the best-matched setup is a T3/T4 50 trim, and whatever A/R you would want (.48, .63, and .82 are the most common i've seen), depending on RPM requirements. This turbo can flow between 350 and 400 horsepower, which would be good enough for 11's with a good driver.

Twin turbo is never a good idea on an inline engine, as there is only one exhaust manifold. Besides, I don't think that 2.3 liters is enough displacement to spool two turbos. You are talking only 1.15 liters per turbo, in that case.

What about two turbo's designed for a 1.1 liter engine? Run each off two cylinders? Something that small ought to spool very very quickly, and the combined effect of two ought to amount to something decent, at least in theory. Single turbo can be good too, just a matter of tuning it properly, though the idea of TT sounds fun.

40Bob will mount and port-match a 65mm throttle body to a 2.3's intake manifold. He also makes a custom intake manifold. http://www.40bob.com/

Allright.

For intercooling, I don't know of too many good options. You could probably get you a really good Spearco part, but those run at least a $1000, I believe. Mike built his own 3-core intercooler out of 3 volvo cores, for CHEAP. I would recommend doing something similar to this if you've got the connections to do so (welding and fabricating end-tanks is requied to do this).

It would probably be a custom intercooler of some kind. I have a few ideas floating in my head, so we'll see how that goes.

Again, check out the companies I listed above under suspension, or pick up a copy of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords for some more options.

Right, will do.

Hope that helps a little.

Yes it has, and raised some more questions, hopefully I can get some more answers before this thread dies.

Dan

 

[Dan'l]

First(and easiest) go to the junk yard pick up a rear swaybar from a gt or turbocoupe and it's 4 bolts and clips.- bring it home, bolt on 4 bolts and enjoy your first MAJOR improvement with Maybe a $25 cost. and a half hour of your time

 

[Pro-Hawk]

Damn thats a lot, is this a trick or a test?

I'm to A.D.H.D for all that.

I know a guy made a adpter plate for a 94-95 5.0L TB to use on a 2.3L. As for the roll cage I would check with the track rules where you will be racing. I do open road racing and the cage is judged by the class and weight of the car. they have a chart for thinkness of the tubing and a chart on what type of weilds you can use to put it together.

I think on turboford.org they got a mpa to figure out what psi you will need on the turbo I forget its like 1lbs=10 hp but don't qoute me.

I would proubly forget the vovlo head, talk to Mike SVOR he messed with this swap once I believe.

I'm guessing on a 10 sec car I would use a 4:10 gear with a T-56, but since I never ran that fast umm

Thats my two cents or more

 

[mr_woodster]

You want a road queen, drag champ ...rides connected to the road with awsome seat of your pants power. I'd say wait for the new GT (remake of the GT40), Handles awsome and that 5.4 supercharged (500hp) motor will get you just about anywhere you want to go, its less than a ferrari too Sounds like you have a major project ahead of you, involving more green than a golf course, so get started and let me know how it turns out in 5 years

 

[Pro-Hawk]

Qoute

I'm leaning more toward a rally setup, I have more fun with complex manuevers and handling than I do just running a straight line; but who's to say that just because you have a rally setup means you can't run a good 1/4? The 10 second example was just a convenient way of getting across about how fast I want it to be.

So let me get this straight you want the power of a 10 sec car for a ralley sport racer?

May be better to just buy a Saleen
( I've seen them as low as 15k on ebay)

I love open road racing and I understand wanting the power, but I wondering how long a 2.3L built with enough power to get it to run 10's can last in a Ralley/OPRR.

This is just me, but if you are going to use it for RalleY Sport or OPRR I would build the car for around 200-250 and go for dependablity. Also I would use the T-5 with a 3:73 gear or lower unlike what I said earlier on the 1/4 idea. Check out the link on a 93' N/A 2.3L for S.C.C.A its got some in car feed also.

www.silverhorseracing.com/

 

[Pro-Hawk]

You want a road queen, drag champ ...rides connected to the road with awsome seat of your pants power. I'd say wait for the new GT (remake of the GT40), Handles awsome and that 5.4 supercharged (500hp) motor will get you just about anywhere you want to go, its less than a ferrari too Sounds like you have a major project ahead of you, involving more green than a golf course, so get started and let me know how it turns out in 5 years

I agree or a Saleen.

Also didn't that guy who did that volvo 2.3L merkur swap he is talking about say it was so hard he would never do it again. Maybe this a 10 yr project

Ok i'll stop

 

[78cobra347]

For a 10 second car u need direct port nos and 25 psi boost and a good C-4 with 5,000 stall and trans brake and maybe a 9" with a spool and of coarse wheelie bars in calgary a few years ago (like 10) a guy ran his svo like that with a rear seat aftercooler, He was way ahead of his time..

 

[i4power]

I'm leaning more toward a rally setup, I have more fun with complex manuevers and handling than I do just running a straight line; but who's to say that just because you have a rally setup means you can't run a good 1/4? The 10 second example was just a convenient way of getting across about how fast I want it to be.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood. It's probably better to aim for a horsepower goal than a 1/4 mile goal, especially if you are aiming for autocrossing.

Where can I look up information on how the different gear ratios affect how the car drives? What about a full breakdown of the gear ratios gear by gear?

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/09/t5swap/index2.shtml

What I would like to know is what kind of specifications I should look for, as well as flow rates achieved by DOHC vs. SOHC heads. I have seen the ARCA head from Esslinger, and the D port head, but what kind of performance am I really looking at there? What kind of numbers are involved in flow? CFM? Something else? Where can I get details about that?

I believe turboford.org has a chart with flow numbers.

I looked through their entire online catalog last night, and saw alot of things. Right now I need to figure out what kind of cam and crank I would need. I'm going for a fast revving engine with a top end of roughly 7k, maybe 8. I want the power to come in around 1300, and keep going. Basically, I want it to come in fast and hard and not let up until I eased the throttle down, but I'm also not looking to be running 3-4 k on the highway, so you could say I'm also wanting it to run steady once it gets up to speed around 2k RPM.

There is no way that any real power can be made at 1300rpm, especially on a turbo application. You'd have to wait until ~3500rpm when full boost kicks in for that. If you are aiming for 8000rpm, you'd definitely need a high lift cam to provide for that speed. The low RPM performance will suffer.

What about completely replacing the computer? I had planned on learning how the engine was set up (vacuum lines, electronics), as well as the interior electronics, stripping everything and replacing it to my standards. I would be fabricating a new guage face and be using largely, if not entirely, aftermarket gauges. I really don't know if the EEC IV is designed for the end goal I have in mind, so that's why I ask. As far as the Holley goes, are you talking carbed or something else (I only know holley for carbs, but I don't know alot, that's why I ask). Right now I'm partial to MP/EFI, mostly because of efficiency issues.

Holley sells fuel-injected parts as well as carbeurated compontents (the Systemax for the 5.0 comes to mind). Sorry, i'm not very proficient with Ford computer systems, so I can't really answer your question otherwise.

What about two turbo's designed for a 1.1 liter engine? Run each off two cylinders? Something that small ought to spool very very quickly, and the combined effect of two ought to amount to something decent, at least in theory. Single turbo can be good too, just a matter of tuning it properly, though the idea of TT sounds fun.

Yes, it would spool really quickly, but would it be able to sufficiently flow 350-400 horsepower? I don't think it would. Besides, a twin-turbo setup is very complicated, so the effort isn't worth the minor, if any, improvement. I would just stick with a single turbo (read: cheaper, less complicated, and more power anyway).

 

[Maxime]

SpectralSamurai:

I am no SVO expert but I think you do not know what a 10s car look and feels like. In order to run in the 10s you will need all kind of mods that will not be good for Road Racing. You will have a very hard time to run in the 10s with a road racing suspension setup. And if you go for a drag racing suspension setup. You will not do well in a road racing event.

Plus do you know how much power it takes to run in the 10s? We are talking like +500hp right? Are you sure you can handle that kind of power on a race track?

No offense but I think you need a reality check.

Reading this topic reminds me of the kids on import forums. You know the kind of guy who reads Sport Compact Cars and play to much GT3.

His list of futur mods look like this:

H22A
Forged Pistons
Forged Rods
Darton Sleeves
JR Supercharger
Turbonetic T3-T4 turbo
200 shot of NAWS!!!!!!!!!
Stage 3 weight reduction.

 

[mightypoof]

I say....be revolutionary and make a super/turbocarged 2.3. I don't know if it possible, but when I lay in bed and can't sleep sometimes I imagine 2.3 with a blower boosting like 10, to launch you off the line, with a solenoid to relase the pressure at like 3000, and a turbo to take over after that....I think it would be kick ass....

 

[notched86]

SpectralSamurai:

I am no SVO expert but I think you do not know what a 10s car look and feels like. In order to run in the 10s you will need all kind of mods that will not be good for Road Racing. You will have a very hard time to run in the 10s with a road racing suspension setup. And if you go for a drag racing suspension setup. You will not do well in a road racing event.

Plus do you know how much power it takes to run in the 10s? We are talking like +500hp right? Are you sure you can handle that kind of power on a race track?

No offense but I think you need a reality check.

Reading this topic reminds me of the kids on import forums. You know the kind of guy who reads Sport Compact Cars and play to much GT3.

His list of futur mods look like this:

H22A
Forged Pistons
Forged Rods
Darton Sleeves
JR Supercharger
Turbonetic T3-T4 turbo
200 shot of NAWS!!!!!!!!!
Stage 3 weight reduction.

I agree, your goal is possibly in theory, but to make it a reality would take ALOT of time (we're talking years) money (thousands) and effort (the old blood, sweat, and tears). Alot of people agree that a car that trys to be a multi-tasker (in your case autox'er, daily driver, and drag racer) just ends up not being particularily great in any field. If you can actually pull this off, more power to you, all I'm saying is it's going to be EXTREMELY difficult. For all this effort and money, you almost wonder if you'd be better off just to buy an '03 Cobra and have it all at once and be done with it.

 

[SpectralSamurai]

There is no way that any real power can be made at 1300rpm, especially on a turbo application. You'd have to wait until ~3500rpm when full boost kicks in for that. If you are aiming for 8000rpm, you'd definitely need a high lift cam to provide for that speed. The low RPM performance will suffer.

You're right, I paid closer attention to the RPM on the gauge (normally I just listen), but I saw how low 1300 really was. I guess what I'm wanting is for the RPM to be able to push through past ~3300 and keep going, because what always happens is in first gear, it pushes right up to ~4500-5500 no problem, that will take me to about 30-35 MPH, 2nd gear will start off around ~2000 RPM, goes right up to ~3300 RPM and then just gets stuck there, at which point it will slowly (like 5-6 seconds) work its way to ~50-55MPH, at that point, it just goes downhill. 3rd gear kicks in around ~20-2200 RPM, and will do the same thing 2nd gear does: get to ~3300 RPM, then just freeze. I really don't know what the powerband accurately looks like after that, because I'm not the type to push it to the max on the roads around here.

After a few days, I realize that my goal was a little far fetched for the resources, or lack thereof, that I possess, so I'm dropping alot of it. However, in terms of raw power, I could realistically expect to push ~300 HP and ~310 ft/lbs TQ, right? Alot of you guys are running ~200 straight from the donor car, so how much would it take for that extra 100? (I realize that is a rather large amount). Basically, stats wise, I think it would be fun to match or maybe even beat those of the average stock power of the Pony cars (the new ones, including Camaro/Firebird). Actually, when I saw the stock stats for the Dodge Stealth RT, that became the car to beat. V6 TT 320HP 315 ft/lbs TQ.

To Maxime, no C&P: I can understand where you are coming from, however I have two things to say.

First of all, as I told I4Power, 10 second 1/4 was an example to get across about how much power I want to get out of this thing. I'm not entirely sure of the HP & Tq relation to top speed, acceleration, etc. so it was a rough idea. Basically, I don't want to be touchable on the streets, I'm tired of import crap giving me a run for my money because the stupid things have more VE than my engine. Like I lamented once before, a stinkin Escort gets better acceleration than my car does, don't like the gearing and too much electronic crap, but nonetheless.

Secondly, no, I don't understand exactly how much needs to be done. I'm fairly new to the entire realm of cars (only been looking into this kinda stuff for a year or so) but I've been doing more research than I believe you understand. I didn't come on and start calling everything "stage whatever" upgrades, nor did I start blabbing about how much Nitrous I was gonna pump through the engine. I've been reading about various engine upgrades (crank, cam, piston, comp. etc), turbo swaps, and such things for about a month before I posted anything. I had a bunch of ideas and theories and wanted to see what people thought of them. Apparently, the trend at the moment is "go buy a Cobra", despite that that was the exact opposite of the intention, I wanted to make that power from a 2.3, plain and simple. I still have alot to learn, and this is how you learn.

I say....be revolutionary and make a super/turbocarged 2.3. I don't know if it possible, but when I lay in bed and can't sleep sometimes I imagine 2.3 with a blower boosting like 10, to launch you off the line, with a solenoid to relase the pressure at like 3000, and a turbo to take over after that....I think it would be kick ass....

The thought has definately crossed my mind, I know of a couple of people doing that to a Mercedes engine, except their Twin Turbocharging it and leaving the stock SC in place. The biggest problem with that would be getting a SC to fit properly on the block in the first place, followed by the power necessary to properly run a blower in the first place. With enough money and time, you can do anything you want with a machine (within certain laws of physics) but the problem becomes, do you have that kind of money and time? Where would you get a donor SC from? One from the newer mustangs would cost Lord knows how much, and the one from the 3.8 V6 would have to have custom work done on it. Furthermore, there is the problem of I don't know enough about superchargers to really go further than that. I think it would be an awesome idea to pull off, but I'm not sure how much it would take, from what I've gathered, many people here seem opposed to anything except just swapping a turbo 4 and being done with it. There are exceptions, of course, but the SC vs. TC arguments didn't lead to alot (that I remember anyway, I am quite likely wrong.) In summary though, without a good number of block mods, I don't know how well the 2.3 could power an SC, but the idea seems well worth looking into. Actually, thinking about it, it may not be so great of an idea, because I'm pretty sure you can't just "cut off" boost from a supercharger, its linked directly to the engine with a belt, when engine goes, SC goes. You could make a device to somehow cut the link between SC and engine, but it seems like that would be more trouble than it would be worth, then comes the issue of getting the air past the now stationary rotors/screws within the SC, so.... Meh, dunno, now I need to look into that. Thoughts on this would be cool.

Right now, I think ~300 HP and ~310 ft/lbs TQ is a reasonable goal, right?

Dan

 

[mightypoof]

300 hp isn't too difficult. With a decent FMI, a roller cam, port the head, and T3/4 hybrid with the boost turned up you should be right around there. Don;t forget decent exhaust, and a K&N as well. I expect to be right around there. I won't get to a dyno for another month or two though.

 

[i4power]

This is my end goal list, and this should put me at ~300hp at the wheels, as well as good launches and handling:

- T3/T4 hybrid (50 trim compressor and .63 a/r looks good to me)
- full 3" exhaust
- better front-mount intercooler, possibly custom
- 40bob's coated header
- gutted intake manifold, port-matched to ported head (with bigger valves) and 65mm throttle body
- custom cam, better valve springs and lifters (don't know what specs right now)
- MSD ignition (2-step rev limiter for building boost!)
- Big VAM, LA3 computer, and a TwEECer ( )
- 8.8" rear from a 5.0
- SN95 Cobra brakes (5 lug, 4 wheel disc with 13" fronts)
- Steeda GTrac-style suspension upgrades (not necessarily from Steeda, however)
- T5 with strengthened internals (don't know where to get em, however)

That should be more than good enough for 12's (with good driving of course), and should easily smoke SRT-4's, turbo Civics, big-headed stock 5.0 owners, etc. The thing that i'm worried about is that the 35lb/hr injectors might be pretty stressed at that point, and i've heard that playing with the VAM isn't any fun. We'll see as time goes on.

Basically, the big problem with making lots of power is that many parts will need to be upgraded to handle the strain, i.e. accessories, transmission, rear end...even the internals, if you will be pushing over 450hp out of the engine. That's why careful planning and spending is required on such a large project, because there are so many variables. Don't forget about the fuel system, cooling, electronics, axles...there are so many things! Remember though, that it'll be worth it in the end.

For what you are looking for (10 second 1/4's, aka 500+ hp), i'm gonna guess that you'll need to build the car from scratch. Pull out all the stops, such as stripped interior (unless it's a daily driver), rack-and-pinion steering (lighter and more precise), tubular drag suspension (90/10 shocks w/ coil-overs, smaller tires up front, drag-radials out back, lighter k-member + lighter control arms, etc), and fiberglass body panels. Build the engine from the ground up as well. You'll definitely need stronger pistons and rods. Get an Esslinger crank. A tall-deck block would be nice, but I don't know where to find those. For the head, you'll definitely need an Esslinger aluminum piece. Don't use titanium valve parts, because they will wear out too quickly. Get the head ported, and get some big valves as well (don't know the size #'s).

Wow, there is so much to cover! I can fill you in on the rest if you like...but hopefully you can see what this is leading to. Lots and lots of $$$$, easily over $10,000 for a serious and complete street/strip combination. Of course, not all of those are needed, i'm just recommending them for the best performance.

Maxime: LOL "Stage 3 Weight Reduction"

 

[Pro-Hawk]

I agree, your goal is possibly in theory, but to make it a reality would take ALOT of time (we're talking years) money (thousands) and effort (the old blood, sweat, and tears). Alot of people agree that a car that trys to be a multi-tasker (in your case autox'er, daily driver, and drag racer) just ends up not being particularily great in any field. If you can actually pull this off, more power to you, all I'm saying is it's going to be EXTREMELY difficult. For all this effort and money, you almost wonder if you'd be better off just to buy an '03 Cobra and have it all at once and be done with it.

He could just buy a McClaren F1 its a 12 second car that would do nice on other typs of racing. Its not to bad like a million bucks and save him some busted knuckels

 

[Brantley]

For all this effort and money, you almost wonder if you'd be better off just to buy an '03 Cobra and have it all at once and be done with it.

It's about the journey, not the destination Seriously, tho.. When I am driving my car, I am constantly thinking about what would happen if I changed something else. It seems as if something is wrong if I am not working on the car all the time. Plus, it's great that I've done it all myself - I enjoy driving it more, and I know areas to keep a close eye on An 03 Cobra would rock, but I think I'd probably enjoy the car that I worked on for countless hours a little more.