OK guys, been awhile. Short version: Brothers Mustang, had C4 in it, blew up 3rd. Wanted OD again, and even though I run a performance shop, Ive never rebuilt auto's before. Just never been my thing. So, Bro found a (at the time it was) good deal on a built AOD, supposed to be good for 450+HP with converter.
So, he buys it. Now, mind you, this has played out awhile longer, because it IS for my Brother, and not a paying customer. So, customer comes in, my Brothers car gets pushed to ths side, which my Brother is OK with.
Anyways, get tranny in car, start it up, drive for 100 YARDS (yes, you read that right) turned around, so could double check fluid level.
Fluid level fine. So, go to back out, no reverse. No drive. Nothing. Basically figure out it's pump thats bad. Call trans shop (they are in Florida, Im in TX), they tell me it's my fault because I installed converter wrong. Well, even though Ive never REBUILT an auto, Ive installed HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of auto's over the years in my customers cars (been at this for 25 years now).
Anyways, IVE NEVER had this happen to me, and guy is arguing with me, blah blah blah...I find oil pump for $80 on the 'Net, buy it. Put it in, and start car up, and motor runs MAYBE 30 SECONDS without me even putting it into gear, and motor dies. Felt like MOTOR locked up. Try to start it, starter wont budge. Put my breaker bar on balancer bolt, motor wont budge clockwise, but will turn counter clockwise, so know it's tranny.
Yank tranny AGAIN, this time converter snout is trashed, yanked pump bushing out with it (was welded to snout). Oil pumpgears had BROKEN, and Im like SOMETHING aint right. Well, I buy the ATSG repair manul for AOD..I figure if I can rebuild motors, specialize in manual tranny rebuilds, do certified cages/chassis, I can take a peak inside an auto.
So, break down AOD, and find that the #3 Needle bearing taht is sandwhiched between the Forward Hub and forward clutch, is shattered in a millions pieces. Also find the Forward Sun gear bushing is chewed up, and the direct driveshaft, on one end, looks like someone had taken a grinder to it, and buthchered the hell out of it.
Also, i notice that there is a "hole" in the bottom of the tranny, like where a part is SUPPOSED to be, but nowhere to be found. It turns out, that location is for the 3-4 accumulator
So, run these parts over to a "professional" trans shop close by, to see what they think.
They have zero idea on why the needle bearing is trashed, no idea why the 3-4 accumulator is missing, and no idea why the direct driveshaft, one end, is butchered like that.
Only thing they can tell me why I keep having oil pump problems is either wrong install (my fault) or TQ converter is machined wrong, or there has been metal in tranny and getting hung up in oil pump.
I tell them that Ive been doing this 25 years, and Ive never run into this, and after the FIRST oil pump failure, before I installed tranny, I checked converter 10 times if I checked it once. I went as far as to measure from face of bellhousing of trans, to the mounting lugs on converter, to get my "depth", I then measured from back of engine block, to the flywheel lugs for converter studs, and did my math, and it was spot on. So, I KNOW that the 2nd time I installed converter, IT WAS INSTALLED CORRECTLY, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! Again, Ive done this many times, with no failures, and then for it to happen TWICE on the same tranny in 2 weeks time? AND, because of teh extent I went through to make SURE converter was installed correctly, NO WAY.
So, I call florida trans shop to get some answers from them, and they draw a blank on #3 needle bearing, forward sun gear...they do tell me they DO grind the direct driveshaft for better oil flow. Hmmm, well, ok. Not saying this is BS, but local trany shop was stumped when i showed it to them (they were NOT a performance trans shop, so, maybe, maybe not????) So, I'll give it to them on this (even though it looked like dog mess, would think if gonna modify it, would take more time, as there WAS sharp edges left on direct driveshaft, so maybe metal broke off of it, and got caught in system????
OK, thier reason for NO 3-4 accumulator, is that they say SOME AOD's do NOT come with a 3-4 accumulator. Now, I would think FOR SURE that the local trans shop would something about that, but they were completely dumb founded when I said NO 3-4 accumulator, and was told it HAS to ahve it. Florida trans shop sticks with story, and says SOME do NOT use it.
EDIT:I went through my ATSG repair manual for AOD, and NOWHERE does it say nothing about NOT having a 3-4 accumulator. It DOES say that some models have different style's 3-4 accumulator. So, Im confused on that one.
They then tell me, I am installing converter wrong, and THAT is my problem, but gonna send me parts anyways. Gonna send mew oil pump, needle bearing kit, all new bushing, gaskets, TQ converter.
So, I inspect and go through whole tranny myself, checking clearances along the way, and as Im putting things back toghether, everything is going back together just fine, but I do find that some specs are out, like for example, the intermediate clutch clearance was too loose (measured out at 1.655, and calls for 1.634-1.636. So, had to get a thicker selective steel seperator plate to tighter it up some.
Oh, when I recieve parts, the box was ripped wide open, and all of my parts...needle bearings, bushings, etc.. were NOT in like plastic baggies..they were "loose", and I end up receiving only 2 of my needle bearings, NO bushings, no rings, no thrust washers, nothing, like everything got dumped out of box.
So, I end up buying parts from local guy, and sending bill to florida shop.
OK, guys, if you wanted to skip straight to my problem, here it is:
Got tranny back together, and went to drive, and from 1st to 2nd, was PERFECT, nice firm shift, but didnt want to shift into 3rd or OD, stayed in 2nd. Slowed down, started over, same thing.
Adjusted TV cable (loosened jam nut on TB, pulled inner cable towards front of car, AWAY from firewall, just a smidge, JUST to put some tension on it.) and went and drove it, and now it shifts into 3rd and OD, BUT, it shifts from 1st to 2nd VERY quickly.
So, come back, loosen jamb nut, and pull on cable just a wee bit more, and go and drive it, and now, it wont stay in 1st gear but for 2 or 3 feet. I mean, literally, as soon as you take off, it shifts in 2nd gear, and then will shift into 3rd and OD jsut fine.
So, call company we bought the TV cable from (performace automatic) and he tells me, I really need to check pressure, and NOT go by "feel", and tells me, In PARK, at idle, pressure should be 0-3 PSI, and with the "tool" installed, that came with TV cable, it should be @ 25-35PSI. Well, Im not sure if this cable didnt come with tool, or it's jsut misplaced (going on a YEAR that Ive had this car/trans/cable), but decide to check readings anywas without tool, but cable hooked up. For this test, I went back to my "original" settings, and installed cable EXACLTY like directions say to. At that setting, I am getting 0 (zero) PSI at idle, in PARK, and I decided to grab lever on side of tranny, where TV cable is hooked up, and moved it forward, like someone was stepping on the gas (but engine speed remained at idle), and pressure topped out at @ 25 PSI, and I moved arm ALL the way until it stopped.
I then, used the throttle itself, and revved the motor, to see what pressure would do, and basically, it stayed near zero, unless I REALLy got into throttle (still in Park).
So, that is where I am at, and wanted some answers before I continue on.
Are my readings correct? or should they have been HIGHER when I moved the arm on tranny manually? What about when engine speed increased, what should pressure have been?
if those ARE right, why is tranny shifting so lazy?
I thought that the more you pulled cable AWAY from firewall, and towards front of car, the LATER the shift, AND the firmer the shift? But, in this case, Im getting teh EXACT oppostie. it seems, the more I pulled cable, the SOONER the trans shifted, AND the SOFTER it shifted.
Again, when I FIRST got trany back together, and it would NOT shift in 3rd or OD, the shift from 1st to 2nd was PERFECT. I mean, NICE and FIRM, and under moderate accelleration, it shifted @ 3500 RPM. Again, PERFECT, BUT NO 3rd/OD. then, start playing with TV cable and start getting SOONER 1st to 2nd shifts, and very soft at that, but I AM getting it to shift into 3rd and OD.
LAST THING: When I tore tranny apart, and went through Valve body and cleaned it out, I REUSED the gaskets. Now, remember, these gaskets have a total of 200 YARDS drive time, and MAYBE 30 SECONDS sitting still/idel time, so would figure it would be OK to reuse. Or not?
Ok guys, i know I got really really long winded, and I know alot if not most of you will not read this because it is so long, but thsoe that do, and can help me, or offer some advice, wow, GREAT appreciated.
Thanks guys!
Ok, I dont proofread, so if you find mispellings, i CAN spell, I just cant type is all....
So, he buys it. Now, mind you, this has played out awhile longer, because it IS for my Brother, and not a paying customer. So, customer comes in, my Brothers car gets pushed to ths side, which my Brother is OK with.
Anyways, get tranny in car, start it up, drive for 100 YARDS (yes, you read that right) turned around, so could double check fluid level.
Fluid level fine. So, go to back out, no reverse. No drive. Nothing. Basically figure out it's pump thats bad. Call trans shop (they are in Florida, Im in TX), they tell me it's my fault because I installed converter wrong. Well, even though Ive never REBUILT an auto, Ive installed HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of auto's over the years in my customers cars (been at this for 25 years now).
Anyways, IVE NEVER had this happen to me, and guy is arguing with me, blah blah blah...I find oil pump for $80 on the 'Net, buy it. Put it in, and start car up, and motor runs MAYBE 30 SECONDS without me even putting it into gear, and motor dies. Felt like MOTOR locked up. Try to start it, starter wont budge. Put my breaker bar on balancer bolt, motor wont budge clockwise, but will turn counter clockwise, so know it's tranny.
Yank tranny AGAIN, this time converter snout is trashed, yanked pump bushing out with it (was welded to snout). Oil pumpgears had BROKEN, and Im like SOMETHING aint right. Well, I buy the ATSG repair manul for AOD..I figure if I can rebuild motors, specialize in manual tranny rebuilds, do certified cages/chassis, I can take a peak inside an auto.
So, break down AOD, and find that the #3 Needle bearing taht is sandwhiched between the Forward Hub and forward clutch, is shattered in a millions pieces. Also find the Forward Sun gear bushing is chewed up, and the direct driveshaft, on one end, looks like someone had taken a grinder to it, and buthchered the hell out of it.
Also, i notice that there is a "hole" in the bottom of the tranny, like where a part is SUPPOSED to be, but nowhere to be found. It turns out, that location is for the 3-4 accumulator
So, run these parts over to a "professional" trans shop close by, to see what they think.
They have zero idea on why the needle bearing is trashed, no idea why the 3-4 accumulator is missing, and no idea why the direct driveshaft, one end, is butchered like that.
Only thing they can tell me why I keep having oil pump problems is either wrong install (my fault) or TQ converter is machined wrong, or there has been metal in tranny and getting hung up in oil pump.
I tell them that Ive been doing this 25 years, and Ive never run into this, and after the FIRST oil pump failure, before I installed tranny, I checked converter 10 times if I checked it once. I went as far as to measure from face of bellhousing of trans, to the mounting lugs on converter, to get my "depth", I then measured from back of engine block, to the flywheel lugs for converter studs, and did my math, and it was spot on. So, I KNOW that the 2nd time I installed converter, IT WAS INSTALLED CORRECTLY, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! Again, Ive done this many times, with no failures, and then for it to happen TWICE on the same tranny in 2 weeks time? AND, because of teh extent I went through to make SURE converter was installed correctly, NO WAY.
So, I call florida trans shop to get some answers from them, and they draw a blank on #3 needle bearing, forward sun gear...they do tell me they DO grind the direct driveshaft for better oil flow. Hmmm, well, ok. Not saying this is BS, but local trany shop was stumped when i showed it to them (they were NOT a performance trans shop, so, maybe, maybe not????) So, I'll give it to them on this (even though it looked like dog mess, would think if gonna modify it, would take more time, as there WAS sharp edges left on direct driveshaft, so maybe metal broke off of it, and got caught in system????
OK, thier reason for NO 3-4 accumulator, is that they say SOME AOD's do NOT come with a 3-4 accumulator. Now, I would think FOR SURE that the local trans shop would something about that, but they were completely dumb founded when I said NO 3-4 accumulator, and was told it HAS to ahve it. Florida trans shop sticks with story, and says SOME do NOT use it.
EDIT:I went through my ATSG repair manual for AOD, and NOWHERE does it say nothing about NOT having a 3-4 accumulator. It DOES say that some models have different style's 3-4 accumulator. So, Im confused on that one.
They then tell me, I am installing converter wrong, and THAT is my problem, but gonna send me parts anyways. Gonna send mew oil pump, needle bearing kit, all new bushing, gaskets, TQ converter.
So, I inspect and go through whole tranny myself, checking clearances along the way, and as Im putting things back toghether, everything is going back together just fine, but I do find that some specs are out, like for example, the intermediate clutch clearance was too loose (measured out at 1.655, and calls for 1.634-1.636. So, had to get a thicker selective steel seperator plate to tighter it up some.
Oh, when I recieve parts, the box was ripped wide open, and all of my parts...needle bearings, bushings, etc.. were NOT in like plastic baggies..they were "loose", and I end up receiving only 2 of my needle bearings, NO bushings, no rings, no thrust washers, nothing, like everything got dumped out of box.
So, I end up buying parts from local guy, and sending bill to florida shop.
OK, guys, if you wanted to skip straight to my problem, here it is:
Got tranny back together, and went to drive, and from 1st to 2nd, was PERFECT, nice firm shift, but didnt want to shift into 3rd or OD, stayed in 2nd. Slowed down, started over, same thing.
Adjusted TV cable (loosened jam nut on TB, pulled inner cable towards front of car, AWAY from firewall, just a smidge, JUST to put some tension on it.) and went and drove it, and now it shifts into 3rd and OD, BUT, it shifts from 1st to 2nd VERY quickly.
So, come back, loosen jamb nut, and pull on cable just a wee bit more, and go and drive it, and now, it wont stay in 1st gear but for 2 or 3 feet. I mean, literally, as soon as you take off, it shifts in 2nd gear, and then will shift into 3rd and OD jsut fine.
So, call company we bought the TV cable from (performace automatic) and he tells me, I really need to check pressure, and NOT go by "feel", and tells me, In PARK, at idle, pressure should be 0-3 PSI, and with the "tool" installed, that came with TV cable, it should be @ 25-35PSI. Well, Im not sure if this cable didnt come with tool, or it's jsut misplaced (going on a YEAR that Ive had this car/trans/cable), but decide to check readings anywas without tool, but cable hooked up. For this test, I went back to my "original" settings, and installed cable EXACLTY like directions say to. At that setting, I am getting 0 (zero) PSI at idle, in PARK, and I decided to grab lever on side of tranny, where TV cable is hooked up, and moved it forward, like someone was stepping on the gas (but engine speed remained at idle), and pressure topped out at @ 25 PSI, and I moved arm ALL the way until it stopped.
I then, used the throttle itself, and revved the motor, to see what pressure would do, and basically, it stayed near zero, unless I REALLy got into throttle (still in Park).
So, that is where I am at, and wanted some answers before I continue on.
Are my readings correct? or should they have been HIGHER when I moved the arm on tranny manually? What about when engine speed increased, what should pressure have been?
if those ARE right, why is tranny shifting so lazy?
I thought that the more you pulled cable AWAY from firewall, and towards front of car, the LATER the shift, AND the firmer the shift? But, in this case, Im getting teh EXACT oppostie. it seems, the more I pulled cable, the SOONER the trans shifted, AND the SOFTER it shifted.
Again, when I FIRST got trany back together, and it would NOT shift in 3rd or OD, the shift from 1st to 2nd was PERFECT. I mean, NICE and FIRM, and under moderate accelleration, it shifted @ 3500 RPM. Again, PERFECT, BUT NO 3rd/OD. then, start playing with TV cable and start getting SOONER 1st to 2nd shifts, and very soft at that, but I AM getting it to shift into 3rd and OD.
LAST THING: When I tore tranny apart, and went through Valve body and cleaned it out, I REUSED the gaskets. Now, remember, these gaskets have a total of 200 YARDS drive time, and MAYBE 30 SECONDS sitting still/idel time, so would figure it would be OK to reuse. Or not?
Ok guys, i know I got really really long winded, and I know alot if not most of you will not read this because it is so long, but thsoe that do, and can help me, or offer some advice, wow, GREAT appreciated.
Thanks guys!
Ok, I dont proofread, so if you find mispellings, i CAN spell, I just cant type is all....