New MS2 kit User on a 95' GT

oleydd970

Member
Oct 14, 2006
40
2
18
Miamisburg, Ohio
Hey Guys. Well I finally finished my MS2 v3.0 kit, bench tested with my JimStim, installed it in the car and tested all I could. I got brave enough to try and start the car and low and behold it starts, if i open the throttle. It runs, it just won't idle on its own, in open loop. I have an AEM wideband O2 sensor with the analog output from the gauge input to the MS2, that works, car is running a bit rich, but thats better than lean. Anyhow, my big issue is getting the car to idle, i cant do much. I do have the PWM mod installed on the MS2. I have Tunerstudio MS and Megalogger HD. I wasn't sure where to start with a tune so i downloaded this tune from DIYAutotune MS2E v3.3.1a MSPNP2-EEC4B8 which is a PNP tune. I made a few changes to it under the Basic/Load setting tabs. I did invert the valve under Idle control tab and the car ran/idled at 2000 rpm, but it leaned out so I shut it off and put it back to normal.

the specs on my car/engine are:
1995 Mustang GT 5 speed 10.5:1 compression
FloTek aluminum heads 2.02" intake and 1.6" exhaust valves
Scorpion 1.6 roller rockers
BBK SSI intake and fuel rails
BBK 70mm throttle body
155lb/hr pump
Ford Racing #24 injectors
Ford TFI Ignition
MSD Blaster coil
And I'm sure I'm forgetting something

Anyhow, I will post my tune here, If anybody can get me going in the right direction, i would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks,
Paul

I should have said that it is OPEN LOOP that I cannot get it to idle in.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
  • Sponsors(?)


stanglx2002

CT Material here
Mod Dude
Jul 7, 2005
1,293
851
154
Can you please provide both the datalog and the tune for us?

Welcome to the forum as it's great to always have a new MS User aboard
 

oleydd970

Member
Oct 14, 2006
40
2
18
Miamisburg, Ohio
Since my original post, I have been playing around with it. I put back the IAC to inverted. The car runs right under 2000 rpm, I did an autotune while its idling at 2k and my AFR was better. i logged some data...my first time.....if its not right let me know what I need to do. I'm just getting started at this and i"m probably pretty dangerous...lol. Anyhow here is the last tune and the datalog.
Thanks for the welcome...I'm looking forward to tuning and hopefully helping others as i learn. I've been playing with cars and bikes for over 30 years, so I'm not new to cars and tuning...just new to tuning EFI.
 

Attachments

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
9,362
5,533
204
30
Hillsborough county
Ok so you built the MS2? if so the valve position likely should be normal, the easy way to tell is sweeping the idle valve duty% in the "warm up duty" table higher numbers should net a higher idle... ect....

stock cam?? if so the idle should be fairly stable even around 800rpm. you need to slowly lower the idle speed while you are adjusting fuel to keep the AFR in an area that the engine is happy, once this is done you can play with the timing at idle. Most stock cams like around 16* at idle.

I made some small changes to get it to idle for you. make sure you run autotune so the fuel starts to fall into line.
 

Attachments

oleydd970

Member
Oct 14, 2006
40
2
18
Miamisburg, Ohio
I guess I should post an update first. Yes I built my MS2 from a kit. I am an Electronics and Instrumentation Technician for Subsonic, Supersonic and HyperSonic wind tunnels. I knew I was forgetting something in my engine list...I have a Ford Racing M-6250-X303 camshaft has a 286° intake duration at.050", and a 286° exhaust duration at .050". This X Cam also features a 0.542" intake lift with 1.6 rockers. I actually got the car to idle in open loop by adjusting the throttle/butterfly stop to 5%. I did not re zero my TPS...not sure if i should? I then went through your timing adjustment procedure with the trigger wizard. I ran an Autotune. I set Idle Control to closed loop....and it did ok, i did bump idle up to 1000 rpm. I came back later and I had some surging and stalling until it got warmer. I guess the question of the day is....Should i not have adjusted the throttle stop? And if that is ok to do...should I re Zero (re-calibrate) my TPS or leave it? I had planned on going through your closed loop idle tuning procedure, but I should wait to hear about what I have done so far. I will post my last tune and my last datalog. I haven't looked at your tune yet.....sorry I thought you should see what I've done.....and the camshaft info omission. Also, I'm in the Dayton Ohio area, so we have had a bit of excitement here with the tornado situation last night. I greatly appreciate your expertise and help.
 

Attachments

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
9,362
5,533
204
30
Hillsborough county
Lets talk about CL idle activation for a moment..

The TPS, LOAD, RPMdot are all used to figure out when the car should enter closed loop idle.. in the CL idle settings at the bottom right of the dialog box you will see the CL activation settings. If these are not met then no CL idle for you!!
in your tune you have the values of
TPS=1%
RPMdot=100
Load threshold= 25


With these settings the car will have to be above 25 KPA [this stop CL idle from kicking in on decel] and off the throttle completely [yes you need to recalibrate the TPS always] The RPMdot-- the engine must be within this much RPMdot [rate of rpm change over one second] before CL idle can kick in. I would start with a value of 1000 and figure the rest out from a datalog.

lets look at a snip from the datalog you provided.
oleydd idle log.PNG


in the second graph the green line is solid at 0, this is status2 it is a bitwise operation value [find more information in the ms2extra manual] a value of 0 means the car is in open loop, CLidle is on and working when this value is 128... your CL idle activation settings are holding you out of CL idle..
Also note the spark advance in the third graph is oscillating with the RPM, this means that the idle issues could also be timing related.

I hope this all makes sense. The tune file I posted above for you will help with these issues and get you into CL idle, along with fixing the AFR tables and such.
 

oleydd970

Member
Oct 14, 2006
40
2
18
Miamisburg, Ohio
I loaded your tune and started up without re-calibrating the tps and the idle oscillated all over the place. I re-calibrated the TPS and it idled smooth, but high. I went into ignition table 1 and started taking away advance from the blocks the blue dot is dancing around in. I took it down to about 17, that's when i could see it starting to oscillate a bit, but looking at the data log, maybe i should stop about 18-18.5? It lowered the rpm as well....but no where near 800, is there some where else that idle speed is set? Also am I going to have to scale all the surrounding cells up or down by hand, in the advance table for instance? Once again thanks for your time, any nudges...or shoves in the right direction are appreciated.
 

Attachments

oleydd970

Member
Oct 14, 2006
40
2
18
Miamisburg, Ohio
Also...the specs on my cam are wrong....I copied and pasted off a website, without looking close. Advertised Duration is 286 deg and 224 deg at 0.050".
 

oleydd970

Member
Oct 14, 2006
40
2
18
Miamisburg, Ohio
Been working on my open loop idle. I can get the car to idle with a bit of help from the throttle. When i start the car the idle surges and slowly works down to stable, or sometimes wants to stall. If i help it (with the throttle) it will stabalize out. Also, if i rev it up it will stall unless I save it with the throttle, albiet ever so slightly, It undershoots target idle speed. I set advance up 4 degrees 300 rpm under idle speed as per the manual, not sure how much that helped. Is this good enough to start trying to mess with closed loop idle adjustment? I kind of think not. Anyhow, any help or hints you can give me with this would be great.
 

Attachments

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
9,362
5,533
204
30
Hillsborough county
You setup closed loop or open loop idle not both. The trick you are referring to is an old way of doing an idle loop, I prefer to use idle advance myself.
 

oleydd970

Member
Oct 14, 2006
40
2
18
Miamisburg, Ohio
I had just read in the manual, that you should get a good stable idle without closed loop. If you have a bad tune or surging in open loop, it will be worse in close loop. i just wasn't sure how stable it needs to be, for example, does it need to start up and idle with no intervention from me? Or if i can get it to idle without surging or oscillating with some intervention from me? I watched some of your videos on closed loop setup....a week or 2 ago...i need to go back and re-watch and take notes. I'm also interested in your classes, how does that work? Is it live over the internet? And of course, what is you the cost?
 

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
9,362
5,533
204
30
Hillsborough county
That is correct, you should be able to get a stable idle first. This helps make sure there are no underlying issues before you begin CL idle, otherwise you will chase your tail getting CL idle to work. For some open loop works just fine and they dont need closed loop, or if the build does not have an idle valve.

The fact that you have to save it before it dies shows that CL idle may be better suited.

For information on classes you can PM me for details.
 

oleydd970

Member
Oct 14, 2006
40
2
18
Miamisburg, Ohio
Well, I spent most of the day Sunday watching all your videos. Which I reccomend watching all of them, then again and take notes....they are excellent BTW. I had a little trouble with the timing sweep. It did ok withe the IAC valve sweep. I used the averaging function in MegaLogViewer to come up with my values for timing and IAC duty. Anyhow i still have an idle oscillation that settles out pretty good, but is still there a bit. Anyhow, i was wondering if your reccomendation would be to try and adjust Idle Adaptive Advance timing, maybe specifically looking at it now, tightening up the -150 to -100 with less advance like 4 maybe, to keep it from overshooting....I can see it stepping through in the data log...or is there too much PID gain on the slider in Closed Loop Idle settings? The data file I am including is big...its the first drive of the car with a stop for fuel. I ran autotune the whole time, but didn't apply it until after i stopped logging back at the garage. Anyhow...thanks for the help and advice.
 

Attachments

oleydd970

Member
Oct 14, 2006
40
2
18
Miamisburg, Ohio
Well I can get a decent idle out of the car now. It is still oscillating a bit. The big ting is , when i goose the throttle, i get a big "overshoot" as the idle goes to recover. It doesn't want to stall, it revs up to high and then oscillates out. Not sure where to address that at. I still think it oscillates a bit too much when it finally settles down as well. What is your opinion a91what?
 

Attachments

  • Like
Reactions: Blucifer99

Blucifer99

I only understand every 3rd word
Jul 15, 2018
441
29
38
35
Port Mcnicoll Ontario
Well I can get a decent idle out of the car now. It is still oscillating a bit. The big ting is , when i goose the throttle, i get a big "overshoot" as the idle goes to recover. It doesn't want to stall, it revs up to high and then oscillates out. Not sure where to address that at. I still think it oscillates a bit too much when it finally settles down as well. What is your opinion a91what?
idling kinda lean there in that datalog.. looks like you got a few to many% in your closed loop initial values table.. i just had that same problem.. lol also Your MAT isnt calibrated either???? LOL -0.2 in the snippet picture up top and 10degrees man in the datalog you posted.. im surprised nobody caught that yet... theres the majority of your idle problems right there.. Unless your MAT is in a box of ice under the hood LOL where is your manifold temp sensor located in the intake?
 
Last edited:

Blucifer99

I only understand every 3rd word
Jul 15, 2018
441
29
38
35
Port Mcnicoll Ontario
Im totally surprised that nobody has caught that your MAT isnt calibrated properly.. that willl cause a whole heep of bad information in your tune,, Mostly the problems your seeing now are mostly related to that,, you should go to calibrate thermistor tables and choose the ford sensor settings 3 point therm generator ,, thats if your using the stock like sensor, also dont forget to lock those settings when your done
 

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
9,362
5,533
204
30
Hillsborough county
Well no one's perfect.

The MAT sensor plays a large role in the fuel delivery, it affects how much the fuel is trimmed based on intake temperature and has a few other smaller roles in ign trim tables and such. It is very important that is fixed. The base tune should have had this sensor calibrated the same as the clt sensor.
Once you check the calibration of the MAT temp if the sensor does not read close to ambient temp on a cold engine then you may have a fault in the wiring.
 

oleydd970

Member
Oct 14, 2006
40
2
18
Miamisburg, Ohio
I'm going to have to double check tomorrow, but to the best of my knowledge, the 94-95 5.0l only has an ACT (Air Charge Temp.) sensor. it is located in the inlet pipe between the mass air meter and the Throttle body. I'm pretty sure that is wired into the MAT input. I thought I calibrated it, maybe i missed it. it is definitly running way to cold...lol. i will physically pull it out and warm it up, see if it reads right, after I try to cal. it and make sure it is set up right. Thanks for catching that!
 

Blucifer99

I only understand every 3rd word
Jul 15, 2018
441
29
38
35
Port Mcnicoll Ontario
I'm going to have to double check tomorrow, but to the best of my knowledge, the 94-95 5.0l only has an ACT (Air Charge Temp.) sensor. it is located in the inlet pipe between the mass air meter and the Throttle body. I'm pretty sure that is wired into the MAT input. I thought I calibrated it, maybe i missed it. it is definitly running way to cold...lol. i will physically pull it out and warm it up, see if it reads right, after I try to cal. it and make sure it is set up right. Thanks for catching that!
if its in the air inlet pipe between the mass air and throttle body when cold it should be reading outside temps and when warm i think it should be up near 100 possibly... thats just a guess tho,, but at a coolant temp of 185 your AcT or MAT should be reading more then 10 LMFAO.. calibrate that first before doing anything else.. you will probably notice a huge improvement over what your seeing now