newbie with supercharger question

[Gearbanger 101]

before you ever make that statement again, look at how defensive you are of vortech/paxton/procharger. why are you taking this so personally bud? calling people "nut huggers" and such when we're all having an adult discussion about superchargers.

I’m not taking this personally at all. I’m being defensive of the other blowers because a lot of the “KB nut huggers” as I stated (which incidentally was a nickname given to them by other members of this board and only repeated by myself) would have you believe that Kenne Bell makes the only blower worth buying. Which obviously isn’t true, since there are many of us that own different kits which are every bit as satisfied and impressed as the Kenne Bell guys are. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying and praising your set up and passing along the positive experience to others, but when bashing another brand or set up without anything to back their claim other than stupid statements like “KB…..nuff said” come into play. They these people get labeled!!!

BTW….it’s kinda funny you’d accuse me of favoring a centrifugal over a Positive Displacement supercharger, when I actually run an Allen (another brand of Positive Displacement supercharger). The only complaint I’ve got about Kenne Bell is their customer service and the way they market their product. The kits themselves are top notch, just like any of the others mentioned.

That's not normally true. You must have some other issues with your setup or tune.

Really Jim, I'd say he's right on the money? 95% of the stock '99-up 2V's I've seen post their numbers haven't made the claimed 400+rwhp @ 9psi that Kenne Bell advertises. Even the addition of their big tube kit won't crack those numbers in most cases. 370-380rwhp seems to be the norm and even less on some of the automatic cars.

Adding your normal bolt ons (throttle body, exhaust, cold air kit, cams, excessive timing combined with race fuel, etc) will absolutely get you there and beyond that mark, but that's not what their claims state. They claim 400+rwhp with a stock car and that's simply not what most owners are seeing.

 

[blacksheep-1]

I respectfully disagree with the exagerated HP claims from KB, I own one, and the 6lb non intercooled numbers were right on the money according to an article that was run in 5.0 (or the other mag, I forget the name) which is basically 100 HP over the stock rwhp. Mine did almost exactly that (342rwhp 2.1kb, www.racerelated.com mild tune) I just took it on a 1400 mile trip through the smokies and it got 22+ to 23mpg. I know these numbers aren't mind boggling for some of you but at 6,500 it was still building HP, even though the torque fell off, so 400 hp with an intercooled 9psi should be no sweat. That being said, I feel compelled to say that their customer service borders on criminal, if it exists at all. If someone goes the KB route, I would HIGHLY suggest that you purchase the tuner kit, and let a local tuner supply all the injectors, chip, etc. Say, maybe this guy www.jmschip.com
who sells many different superchargers. Both of these guys I've mentioned are very reputable and I have done business with them, however, I'm sure their are many others out there.

 

[GT12207]

Gearbanger 101, i'm not really a "nut-hugger" for the Kenne Bell superchargers. I heavily favor all positive displacement superchargers. but i do think KB is the best P.D. supercharger on the market.

Secondly, nobody ever said that what I say is written in stone nor is it the law of the land; just my opinion.

Anyways... WHAT? who said KB exaggerate their numbers?

do the math, those numbers look right to me. Also, auto tranny cars dyno as low as 209rwhp stock. People actually expected the KB kit to give them 750rwhp?

The whole point of a "supercharger" is to get the low end power, instantly, right away. The whole point of turbos is that you get your power a little later, but when it comes, it's alot and it has no parasitic lost.

A centri. blower attempts to copy the turbo, but it does a terrible job at copying. First off, as a "supercharger" it has parasitic lost. and then the power kicks in even later than the turbos. right? or am i full of crap?

so if you have $5k-$6k to blow, why buy a centri. blower? If you only have $3,700 then the Vortech mongoose kit all the way!

 

[TorqueMonster88]

I would go with neither, For the price of the KB, you can get a single turbo setup. Here's why I suggest this.
I started w/ a Vortech on my 99gt. Poor "seat of pants" feel till I upped it to 10psi and got custom tune. Made 410RWHP, 360RWTQ

The low end is very poor (for my taste) with vortech, however, top end is very good. Must keep engine wound up though.

The KB setup was nice. A lot more low end. Was tuned to 415RWHP but made 390 RWTQ. the added torque mage the car more fun to drive, as did the increase in low end power.

On to the T-70.
I got bored with my setup (as most back yard tinkerers do) and made my own turbo setup. (I could have bought the identical kit for $5K but hey, I'm cheap) Boost comes on after the KB, but before the vortech. Final numbers were 429RWHP, and 502RWTQ.

Note the torque differance. Car is A LOT more fun to drive.

This torque increase is because unlike a supercharger, a turbochargers max boost DOES NOT have to be at redline.

The vortech and KB make boost as a function of RPM. More RPM, more boost.
The boost from a turbo is a function of airflow. more flow, more boost.

Here's an example. With my vortech setup, I would make 10psi at 5,800RPM
with the turbo, I make 10 psi at 3,100RPM all the way to 6,500RPM.

Most of your daily driving/ screwing with other cars, you don't see redline, therefor, don't see full potential from your supercharger.

My vote is for Turbo.

What about Turbo lag....Doesn't that become a bitch when street driving

 

[the98stang]

turbo lag isn't a big deal. You can have one small turbo to spool in low rpms and a fatty turbo to spool in the high rpm band. If it's a single turbo setup, you might have to compromise.

 

[2000BLKGT]

FWIW....my 1.7l KB non-cooled 6psi with a Steeda CAI...KB 70mmTB...90mm MAF....Granetelli coil packs....and custom fuel set up with CPR rails - #8 ss line to a Cobra tank with pumps put down 348rwhp at 6000 rpms.....on a super-safe custom tune by Paul Meister (it is tuned for 94 octane).....compared to the 223rwhp before the blower set-up that's a gain of 125rwhp....considerably more than KB states.

regardless of which set up you go with, I think having a capable local tuner is a must.....tuning through the mail would be a total PITA.....and if you have to travel a long distance for the tune....make sure you go to someone reputable

when it comes to performance....the pissing contest will be never ending....so if going fast is your goal.....determine your budget.....and you can choose from Paxton, Vortech, Procharger, KB, Allen and Saleen/Whipple.....and make any set up work well and go fast

but I can guarantee one thing......nothing "sounds" better than a positive displacement blower winding up

and I'm gonna whore a pic....cause IMO...nothing looks better on a 2V than a nice shiny KenneBell

 

[00s281sc368]

I went back and forth between Vortech and KB, obviously went with the KB. This kit is awesome in every aspect, installation, fit and finish, driveability, and just plain fun.
The only complaint is KB does exaggerate the power levels. On their website, they quote 400 plus RWHP for the 9lb kit. You will only see that on a very aggressive, not very safe tune with a ton of timing and 100 octane gas.
With that said, the 370 RWHP feels awesome. Care pulls like a raped ape. Instant power and decent track times. (Below coming out easy with a 1.85 60')

Well, my 9psi 1.7 KB dynoed at 433rwhp on 91 pump gas... and that was with the KB tune provided with the blower.
I have the KB intake package, and a thicker heat exchanger than what KB provided, nothing else.
BTW, that was 3 years ago now, and the car still running like day one.

Before swapping the KB, my car had the eaton blower and made 278rwhp...

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I respectfully disagree with the exagerated HP claims from KB.......

I should mention before this goes any further, the exaggerated figures I was referring to were based on the 1.7L compressors, not the new 2.1L units. I really can't comment a whole lot about them, since they're still in their infantile stages, but from what I've seen thus far, there are still cars not meeting Kenne Bells numbers. I do find it a little bit ironic though how they push their new displacement and rotor design as being more efficient at all levels than the previous smaller Autorotor’s, yet their advertised horsepower stats remain unchanged? I'm curious though blacksheep, aside from the Blower install, is your car stone stock.....no exhaust or intake work, nothing? Blower cars respond extremely well to modest bolt ons that might otherwise prove next to insignificant with a N/A car. Great numbers though.

Like I said, there are exceptions to every rule, but the majority of the 1.7L’s weren’t seeing the 400+ @ 9psi than Kenne Bell advertised. Maybe the ones that were, were running bolt-ons, or the 100-octane and 23* timing like Kenne Bell was when they did their testing.

Gearbanger 101, i'm not really a "nut-hugger" for the Kenne Bell superchargers. I heavily favor all positive displacement superchargers. but i do think KB is the best P.D. supercharger on the market.

Don't take it personally GT12207, I wasn't directing the "nut hugger" comment to you directly. It was more of a generalized statement. And like I said, I wasn't the one who originally coined the phrase.....I just repeated it.

A centri. blower attempts to copy the turbo, but it does a terrible job at copying. First off, as a "supercharger" it has parasitic lost. and then the power kicks in even later than the turbos. right? or am i full of crap?

so if you have $5k-$6k to blow, why buy a centri. blower? If you only have $3,700 then the Vortech mongoose kit all the way!

Without getting into great detail, I'll just say that the speculation that a Centrifugal blower is nothing more than a Turbo rip off is wrong. All superchargers experience parasitic loss. It takes horsepower to make horsepower. The funny thing is, is that Positive Displacement blowers although they move gigantic volumes of air per rotation in fact eat up more horsepower and produce more heat than a Centrifugal supercharges does when making it. That's why P/D blowers (yes, even twin screws) hit hardest down low, then as the heat builds and more horsepower is consumed mellow out up top. Centrifugals don't move near the air down low, so the blower needs to see RPM in order to move enough air to pressurize the intake, but they do so more efficiently than any Positive Displacement supercharger and do so without having to rotate to giant heavy screws or lobes, which is why they'll make more power in the higher ranges. There's more to it than that, but I'm too damn tired to get into it. There's plenty of literature out there to read up on.

 

[Rickey_Bobby]

The twin small/large turbo setup is a thing of the past. it was done to "fix" the old unefficient turbos. not to mention EXTREMELY complex.



Turbo lag is caused by 2 things.
1. Poor design of turbo (like the old turbo's on the Grand Nationals) They used inferior design and metalurgy.

2. Improper sizing of the turbo. (like EVERY honda civic running a T3/T4 hybrid.

#1 has been fixed in the last decade. Improved design and better/lighter metals in the bearings and impellers have lead to turbochargers that are close to 2 times as efficient as similar turbo's from the late 80's.

#2 can be solved by doing your homework. Just bolting on a huge turbo doesnt do ****. There are complicated calculations to be done reguarding airflow and efficiency. Most of this info is put into "compressor maps" by the manufacture.

How you get lag: If a turbo is too big, or the turbine housing to large, it will take more time to get the turbo spinning. Power will be skewed toward the top end.

How to get a good setup:

1.determine the HP you are looking for.
2.determine the amount of air in lbs/min you will need to make this HP. (formulas are all over the internet. But they require some good math skills.)
3. Now you determine what you want the car to drive like. All out power for drag, or quick spool for overall power.
4. with that decided, you choose your turbine wheel and housing profile. Larger housing = higher flow, but lower velocity and efficiency. so a large housing would take a while to get the turbo spinning, but would have a highr peak potential because of the ability to flow more.
Also, clipping the turbing wheel adds flow, but reduces efficiency promoting a more "top end" styled turbo.

My turbo has a rather small turbing housing allowing the turbo to be spun up very quickly by a minium amount of exhaust gas. And the compressor is a standard T-70. the compressor is capable of flowing enough air to produce 700HP at the engine, however, due to my smaller turbing housing, I am limited to about 650HP, because any added flow into the motor would just get backed up in the turbine housing because its max flow capability has been reached.

For me this is fine, I was looking for a max of 600hp at the crank.

And having 20% more torque than ANY supercharger can lay down with the same HP and boost is always nice.

 

[blacksheep-1]

Gearbanger, you got me, it is NOT stone stock, it has a BBK offroad X-pipe and a K&N intake tube/filter, but those are the only mods (I swear)