O/T But need help bad, anyone an electrician?

[JC6715]

I'm in the garage the other night workin away and the damn lights go out. My compressor trips the circuit breaker a lot so I go to the box expecting that same circuit breaker to be tripped... No dice. None of the circuits are tripped, but everywhere else in the house is still getting juice.

I shut down the power and pull out the suspect circuit breaker and behind it looks like a little explosion happened, so I figure I blew up the breaker. Go to Lowes get a replacement wired it up and pop it in... Still nothing. So out comes the multimeter, I am no electrician, but I am damn near positive I am getting juice through the suspect circuit. I test all the circuits and they all seem to be getting power. It is one of the GFI cicuits so it has the test button, it tests out fine.

Does this mean I have a short circuit in the house somewhere? Broken wire?

This is killing me not having power to my garage... Please help!!!

 

[rbohm]

do you have a secondary breaker box for the garage? if so check there for a tripped breaker. also remember that you have to turn a breaker off then turn it back on. sometimes it gives no indication that it has tripped.

 

[JC6715]

Roger, thanks.

I ended up figuring it out last night. The GFI outlet in the garage that I thought I had reset apparently wasn't. I just needed to really lean on the reset button, problem solved.

Thanks.

 

[Platonic Solid]

... My compressor trips the circuit breaker a lot ... It is one of the GFI cicuits so it has the test button, it tests out fine. ...

I ended up figuring it out last night. The GFI outlet in the garage that I thought I had reset apparently wasn't. I just needed to really lean on the reset button, problem solved.

Uhm, is the GFI outlet connected to the circuit breaker that trips alot? If so:

A. The GFI is trash, as it should trip before the breaker.
B. You should seriously consider updating your garage to 20A.

 

[JC6715]

Uhm, is the GFI outlet connected to the circuit breaker that trips alot? If so:

A. The GFI is trash, as it should trip before the breaker.
B. You should seriously consider updating your garage to 20A.

That's why I am going to replace the GFI outlet, I'm thinking it's trashed. And I'm pretty sure the garage is 20A, that's what the circuit breaker says anyway...

Thanks for the input

 

[Platonic Solid]

That's why I am going to replace the GFI outlet, I'm thinking it's trashed. And I'm pretty sure the garage is 20A, that's what the circuit breaker says anyway...

Does your GFI look like this:....................or this:

 

[StangDreamin']

Y'know, if there's room for it in your breaker panel; you could get a separate breaker and lead for your compressor. That way you have the entire 20 Amps available for the compressor - or anything else that requires good voltage and current. (Can you say "Small wire feed", boys and girls???)

Also, not trying to be personal, but How old is your house? There were 20 amp breakers and outlets throughout our house when we bought it; but the wiring was still the circa 1958 14 gauge stuff - and no ground wiring. That's not a 20 amp circuit, no matter what rating the breaker has! (Can you say "House fire", boys and girls!)

Slowly but surely, but painfully slowly; I'm "upgrading" the electric to something a little more modern - #12 Romex with a ground - as I remodel the rest of the house. I'd like to go to a new panel and power mast; but the local electric utility wants (last I checked) $850 just for the new drop from the pole to the house I'm on three phase power for the A/C unit.... much more efficient/less expensive! I guess APS is trying to make a little of my savings back in the cost of the new drop.

 

[JC6715]

Does your GFI look like this:....................or this:

It looks like the second one... What does that mean? Like I said I know next to nothing about all this, but enough to know I need to be careful when messing with it...

 

[JC6715]

Also, not trying to be personal, but How old is your house? There were 20 amp breakers and outlets throughout our house when we bought it; but the wiring was still the circa 1958 14 gauge stuff - and no ground wiring. That's not a 20 amp circuit, no matter what rating the breaker has! (Can you say "House fire", boys and girls!)

You read my mind about the small wire feed... Coming in a couple weeks...

The house was built in '91 so I'm thinking the wiring should should be stout enough...

 

[Platonic Solid]

It looks like the second one... What does that mean? Like I said I know next to nothing about all this, but enough to know I need to be careful when messing with it...

The one on the left is a 20Amp, the right is 15Amp. So now we only need to know the gage of the wire running from the 20Amp breaker to the 15Amp GFI. If the wire is 12/2 then you can install a 20A GFI, if the wire is 14/2 then your wiring is not to code as 14/2 is not permitted to be connected to a 20Amp breaker.

 

[StangDreamin']

If the garage was built with the house (by the same Licensed contractor); I think he's okay. The NEC spec'd 20A power circuits long before '91; lighting circuits could still be 15A, but most electrical contractors would just wire all circuits with 12/2 WG ("with ground") and use all 20A breakers because it was cheaper to stock only one spec for each item.

Think about it; an 80 case lot (4 pallets) of breakers can be ordered for less than 40 cases of 20's and 40 cases of 15's (2 pallets each) - ditto for ordering two different "sizes" of Romex. The GFI's are used a lot less, so there's no substantial price break there - although the electrician sure pu**ed out when he bought the 15A GFI's. For what? $1 less in quantity?

 

[JDS68Stang]

First off NEVER assume because someone's licensed to do electrical work that they do good or correct work, I don't trust anyones work when it comes to electrical and allways do my own so I can sleep at night.
Start by tracing the line from your garage box into your home, then to the breaker box.
Along the sheathing on the line your tracing it should tell you what gage it is, 14, or 12. If it is 12 that's OK for a 20 amp breaker.
If it's 14 ga. it's only good at 15 amps, if you put a 20 amp breaker on your asking for big trouble like the other post said.

If 14 ga. is what it is, run a new 12 ga. line separate. Buy a 20 amp breaker and 12/2 ga. wire w/ ground, run it to the garage of your home and put on a 20 amp GFI (leave it separate from your garage elec. box). Having a dedicated line like this for something like a compressor is not a bad idea anyways.
Black wire is hot, white and copper are neutral. On GFI black wire goes to brass colored screw, white to silver and ground to green screw. ( the GFI instructions will tell you which screws also to use)
Black wire into breaker, white and copper go to the buss bar in your breaker box.
Turn your MAIN power off at the box if you do this, just make sure your computer is shut down first.
You can wire a live box if you know what your doing but I wouldn't recommend it. Good luck.

Edit: Forgot to mention, that "explosion" look you found in the box, sounds like it's being overloaded and next time it just might be a flash flame comming out and start the house on fire, get this fixed or looked at, if not keep an extinguisher on hand, not a bad idea anyway to allways haqve one of those handy.

 

[StangDreamin']

JDS68Stang is right; it doesn't hurt to check. One thing I have found out. though.... electricians will always go the cheapest route that won't get their liability bond spent and/or their license yanked. And I've should know; I do low-voltage and telco/networking now because an old boss didn't believe in lockout/tagout until one of his guys got "lit up" one time (and 480 VAC) too many and spent a couple of days in the hosital! (Yes, Fritz; you've always been right about why I am the way I am... )

Anyway, the cheapest way to pull Romex and keep your license is to pull 12/2WG and safe-load everything at 20A/120V with rated breakers. I don't think I ever pulled 14/2WG on anything!

The really cheap guys will even go so far as to run commercial at 12 ga. in 3/4" conduit. Again; 200 racks (bundles) of 3/4" is cheaper than 180 racks of 3/4 and 20 racks of 1/2.

 

[JC6715]

Thanks for the comments guys, that helps a lot! I am definitely going to run a new circuit for the compressor. That explosion under the break really makes me nervous. Once I am running the compressor on a different circuit, the circuit that was tripping constantly should be ok, correct?

JDS68Stang, I might have some more questions for you as I need to wire up a 220 outlet for an oven I am going to put in my garage for powder coating...

Thanks for all the help guys!

 

[GNGREN]

First off I don't care what anybody else says call an electrician!!! You can only get so much help on the Internet. There is no way to completely diagnose a problem without looking at it.

Anyway, the cheapest way to pull Romex and keep your license is to pull 12/2WG and safe-load everything at 20A/120V with rated breakers. I don't think I ever pulled 14/2WG on anything!

I don't know where you are at but that is not the cheapest and or safest way to do it. Must local municipalities and or local jurisdictions will amend the NEC to their needs, and limit the amount of "points" on a circuit. Why would you spend the extra money on 12/2 for a lighting circuit that has a pretty defined load. If the house or building was wired properly you can save a HUGE amount of money. I can buy 14/2 for $.19 a foot or 12/2 for $.28 per foot. The average sized house in this area uses approximately 3000' of 14/2 ($570.00) and 1250' 12/2 (350.00) You save in raw cost of material alone $270.00, not to mention the additional labor to work with 12 wire and the different types of boxes (cu.in sizes)etc. needed.

JC6715
Thanks for the comments guys, that helps a lot! I am definitely going to run a new circuit for the compressor. That explosion under the break really makes me nervous. Once I am running the compressor on a different circuit, the circuit that was tripping constantly should be OK, correct?

The circuit "should" stop tripping. If you are going through the trouble of running a circuit for the compressor why not just run a sub panel? Call an electrician.

JC6715

JDS68Stang, I might have some more questions for you as I need to wire up a 220 outlet for an oven I am going to put in my garage for powder coating...

Put a sub panel in the Garage. Run a 100 amp line from the main service use 1/0 SER aluminum. Set a 30 circuit panel and then run the circuits you need from it. Call an electrician.

I understand that everybody wants to save money but I would have it checked out. I know I am hurting for work so most likely the guys in your area are also, so you have a much better chance of getting a good deal nowadays than you did when everybody was busy and didn't need to keep the employees busy.

 

[JC6715]

Put a sub panel in the Garage. Run a 100 amp line from the main service use 1/0 SER aluminum. Set a 30 circuit panel and then run the circuits you need from it. Call an electrician.

Thanks for the advice! Based on what you suggested above, and I know it will be different depending on who I call and where I'm located, but could you ballpark how much you would charge to run a sub panel and wire an outlet to run an oven in my garage? Just trying to get an idea of what it would cost if I called in the pros... Thanks man!

 

[StangDreamin']

GNGREN: I worked for a shop that wired both commercial and rezz. When they ordered by the semi-load; they found quite a bit of discount if the semi had all the same stuff loaded. No pick and sort; and the "price per mile" was lower with the bulk discounts. Yes, the savings "on the split" is there for small quantities of SFR's; but on the avg 500 unit Apartment Complex with 20% 3 bedroom units, 35% three BR units, 25% 2 BR's and the rest studios; well, you do the math! When you get to a grocery store or Light Industrial Site, you can often be looking at 277 for lights; and you're looking at loose 12 in EMT - might as well load for 20's; and you're right back at the same point all over again.
Sorry, but there it is.

Hey, I'm with you on the 100 AMP sub-panel (if the Main, meter socket and drop can handle it "by the Code"); but I'm not so sure about the 1/0 Al wire. In an SFR/garage, I'd go 1/0 copper or 2/0 Al -and the Al would be well-doped at the lugs with NoAlOx - even in this dry climate and at 50A per leg! I saw too many mobile home fires as a teen.
Yesyesyes, I know, new lug torque procedures and all that; but still....

And to think that I'm typing this in a house that still has a Zinsco panel.....

 

[GNGREN]

Thanks for the advice! Based on what you suggested above, and I know it will be different depending on who I call and where I'm located, but could you ballpark how much you would charge to run a sub panel and wire an outlet to run an oven in my garage? Just trying to get an idea of what it would cost if I called in the pros... Thanks man!

First off it is hard to give a price when not looking at the physical job. There are way to many variables and assumptions to take into account. 1) How far is the Garage from the service location? 2) Is it finished or unfinished space where the wire will need to be pulled? What type of Main service panel do you have and do you have any circuit spaces left in it? We don't do projects without getting a permit you can save money this way but it also gives the impression to the electricain you are ok with "cutting corners". I don't recommend it. If it isn't getting inspected they WILL cut corners might not be unsafe..but might not be to code.
Assuming an all open unfinished basement to pull wire through and 2 spaces in the panel, approximately 95' of cable from the panel to the sub panel. 20' of cable for the range plug. I don't know what permit fees are there or even the requirements. I would try and use aluminum for the range 6/3 SER, 1/0 Al SER for the panel feed. Making a bunch of assumptions....
Understand the cost of living is likley MUCH higher here in the Washington DC area that we do our work in. You should be able to get it cheaper.... Honestly we wouldn't even do a small project like this normally. Here you would spend around $1300-$1500 with a permit. Without a permit I came up to $1,260.00

I worked for a shop that wired both commercial and rezz. When they ordered by the semi-load; they found quite a bit of discount if the semi had all the same stuff loaded. No pick and sort; and the "price per mile" was lower with the bulk discounts. Yes, the savings "on the split" is there for small quantities of SFR's; but on the avg 500 unit Apartment Complex with 20% 3 bedroom units, 35% three BR units, 25% 2 BR's and the rest studios; well, you do the math! When you get to a grocery store or Light Industrial Site, you can often be looking at 277 for lights; and you're looking at loose 12 in EMT - might as well load for 20's; and you're right back at the same point all over again.
Sorry, but there it is.

Condos are a whole different ball game... You are correct in that aspect. All the high and low rise we do in DC is all wire in 12/MC cable. The pricing structure for purchases for projects like that are completely different than what you find in the Residential single family/townhouse market. It is really hard to compare the two. Plus on jobs like that the specs usually call out your wire sizes to use.

Hey, I'm with you on the 100 AMP sub-panel (if the Main, meter socket and drop can handle it "by the Code"); but I'm not so sure about the 1/0 Al wire. In an SFR/garage, I'd go 1/0 copper or 2/0 Al -and the Al would be well-doped at the lugs with NoAlOx - even in this dry climate and at 50A per leg! I saw too many mobile home fires as a teen.
Yesyesyes, I know, new lug torque procedures and all that; but still....

1/0 Aluminum is rated for 100-135 Amps per NEC Table 310-16. You don't have the the problems with aluminum wire as back in the good ole days. The alloys are much improved...That being said you don't want to run branch circuits with it (IE: lighting and plugs) but feeders for power panels its a no brain-er. The plug and lighting wiring is why they burned. One of the old properties that aluminum had is that when it is compressed it doesn't rebound like copper. So when you torqued it down and the surrounding connection got hot and expanded, when it cooled it it stayed in the more compressed state. This caused arching and eventually fires. That is why you had to go and re-tighten the plugs and switches in those types of houses with aluminum wiring. The newer alluminum alloys are better than the old. Also copper cost WAY to freak-in much money to even try to use and get a competitive price out the door for service feeders and sub feeds. You are talking 2-3 times as much money.

 

[JC6715]

Assuming an all open unfinished basement to pull wire through and 2 spaces in the panel, approximately 95' of cable from the panel to the sub panel. 20' of cable for the range plug.

I don't have a basement, the panel is in the garage, and there are plenty of open spaces... I hope that changes things substantially in terms of cost, because there is no way I could justify spending over $1000 to run my free oven to powder coat some parts for the car... I really appreciate the info man! Really good to know!

 

[GNGREN]

Well **** if the panel is in the garage and you have enough spaces left you don't need a subpanel!! You could do the range and compressor circuits for $300.00 or so.