Ok, so the rack&pinions suck... What are we gonna do about it?

I am sorry that this thread got into this direction that I think wasn´t the intention to begin with. But I like to answer the questions here anyhow.

67coupestang said:
sold!! that is frickin sweet!! what kind of rack does it use?? any talks with selling the idea to big name manufactures??

Thanks! The ´65 - ´66 pictured above uses a SAAB 900 r&p. No talks with the big names. I think that DarkBuddha already kind of explained why:

DarkBuddha said:
the problem is that no major r&p company will ever spend the time, money, and effort to develop a proper rack conversion for early models. It would require engineering a completely new and probably unique unit. I just don't thin the market is big enough to justify that kind of investment.

wildstang said:
Hakan, you are one awsome fabricator. If I didn't already have my shock tower cut out for the Mustang II conversion, I would be very interested in your kit. Any ideas an estimated price?

Thanks! It´s very hard and complicated to give a price estimation at this stage as it even depends on the relation between the Swedish currency and the US Dollar.

allcarfan said:
Very very nice...and interseting. I think you need me to market these here in the states

Thanks for the offer! I already have a small organization in place in the US though that can be activated when the road tests hopefully turns out succesful.
 
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Håkan said:
He is me and I made the centerlink from a square piece of steel that I first turned in a lathe, drilled the holes in a drill press, tapered the holes for the inner tie rod ends using the lathe (might sound strange but I am just using the lathe to get everything lined up). I then used a gas welder to heat it and to get it into the shape it has.

Here´s a pic a took a couple of days ago of the ´65 - ´66 Mustang manual r&p prototype I´m working on right now:

12.jpg


I am also working on a new design of the crossmember for the ´67 - ´70 Mustang as I think it´s a good idea to connect the lower inner A-arm attachment points as I did in the ´65 - ´66 design.

I still don´t know how well my design is going to work as they are not road tested yet. I´ve been very busy with a lot of other job and family related projects lately and have had very little time left to work on this stuff.

Hopefully I´ll have my ´67 (with the r&p) back on the road later this summer and I´ll update my website with news about this and my other projects.

I knew t was your design (i've seen it before, but only at a glance.) I wish I had access to that kind of gear! Ive you get it going and it road tests well, then I will DEFINITELY take one off your hands for a '68.
 
If you don't figure out the R&P then you guys need to hit the gym and muscle up with a steering box :nice: .

Put a Flaming River Manual Box (16 - 1) in your car. I have one in the 65 coupe. It is awesome at speed and on the highway. I wouldn't suggest the average female driver to put in a manual box in a classic stang BTW. I am not trying to be sexist, but I am fairly strong, and I have to really muscle it in the parking lot at slow speed and especially at U Turns, but I have gotten used to it. (I also have 16 x 8 wheels, which doesn't help at all).

The box is 500 bucks or so. I am not sure if mine is broken in or I am just used to it by now, but it is not too bad (almost 500 miles on the motor, box, everything...)

SUSPENSION -
Mustangs Plus 620 coils
New upper/lower arms
Neg. Wedge kit for upper arms (Shelby Drop)
All new steering linkages, etc

TO DO - Possibly bumpsteer kit like Buddah suggested :flag:

16x 8 wheels (225 F / 245 R)
 
I see alot of guys going the the MII setup, Ive had my share of experience with streetrods and MII suspensions. Its not much better than the stock supension, If youve ever driven a pinto you know what I mean. IMO there are only 2 reasons to go that route 1) R&P steering 2) extra engine compartment space. Ive seen 2 companies that are doing suspensions using the fox bodied mustangs components, Although they arent the best handling cars either they have lots of great features, like caster and camber being adjustable from the top of the strut, rack steering and better geometry than we currently have, and the bolt on ability to run late model cobra brakes.
 
hey DB, iv'e checked around and the only people i could find making power servos are woodward and sweet, and i think both of those are going to too long without having to do some pretty major surgery to the column, which doen't bother me too much, but it won't be an easy swap to be sure. btw i have a small problem with your opening statement, the steering we system we are stuck with wasn't really engineered for our cars but rather the late 50's early 60's falcons and fairlanes, i think the 55-57 t-birds even used a similar system. i beleive ford decided to use the add on ps system due to cost issues with re-designing a proper power system for those cars and it just carried over to the mustangs also to due to cost since they already had a system that would work. the original mustang show car used a rack and pinion system. something else i've been thinking about is all the people talking about using dodge intrepid racks, i'm pretty sure the intrepid rcak is the same as the dodge caravan rack i had suggested back in the original "tcp rack now only 2500 thread". not to get back on the rack subject though, it just struck me funny is all. anyway there is always the mitsubishi sigma power gear box, which had a left hand drive eguivalent, the 80's dodge chargers, plymouth sapporo, and the easiest to find the plymouth conquest and mitsubishi starion, maybe even the dodge d-50 or mitsubishi mighty max, if you can find one with power steering, i had a 90 mighty max with no power and it's tough to find one with power. but those are possible u.s. versions and they are all rear steer as well. other than that i'm running out of ideas. i relly don't think we'd be any worse off with one randalls rack kits, if we used the spindle modification posted on his site, and a bumpsteer kit, actually i think you ould use a pro motorsports bump steer kit and not have to do the spindle mod, i think it actually moves the outer tie rod out and forward anyway. i think i'm going to end up getting that rack and the pro motorsports bumpsteer kit, some adjustable strut rods and roller perches (probably use the bronze bushing type instead of the roller bearing) and either modified stock lower arms and wedge kit on the upper arms or possibly some of dolfan87's upper and lower arms, he did tell me that the he will be doing some uppers that use the stock style spring perches
 
I pretty much agree... we're running out of options. Still, at least there are some options out there, and I've already implemented several of them and have plans for others. I'll post my impressions as I get decent time with the car.

As for r&p options, I've liked Randall's r&p since he first posted it, and it seems he's at least acknowledging bump steer issues. I have to admit that I like the feel of r&p, but the damn loss of turning radius sucks to much. Maybe, as you mentioned, combined with the Pro-motorsports bump steer kit, it might be a good compromise.

BTW, I contacted the guy (in New Zealand, or was it Australia?) about the Sigma conversion a while back, and he indicated that its a pretty difficult, high fabrication/modification swap. He wasn't even sure about whether it would work using the US equivalent because of the left to right issues.

As for the original system being designed for our cars... yeah, it was designed for other chasis first (like the Falcon), but the Mustang was initially based on that same Falcon chasis, and the same basic design held until '70 through all Ford's intermediate/compact line. That's all I really meant in my original statement.

Well, perhaps more folks will chime in with stuff they done or have ideas for... :)
 
Here is the Shelby qick steer kit

http://www.cobranda.com/GetItemDetail.asp?ItemID=1350&CatID=367&DeptID=2

it is basically a longer pitman arm and idler arm to decrease the steering ratio. It was intentded to be used with the 16:1 steering box and will result in very nice quick steering albeit with very high effort at low speeds or in a parking lot. My Shelby is not hard to drive but it does take some effort but IMHO the way the car drives it is worth it.

There is also a kit available for the 67 and up 1 1/8" sector shaft but you will have to look around for that one.....I know it exists.
 
It seems to me that the primary issue folks have is COST. Several comments suggest that as well. There are a couple things to consider on any steering purchase:

1. Safety, safety, safety.
2. Repair part availability
3. Cost of repair parts
4. Simplicity of installation
5. A non-unique solution

I don't know about you guys but there are two primary assumptions I have when I get into any car; I can stop anytime I need to and where the car goes is under my control. I like the idea of having large companies behind sensitive safety items......very difficult to sue your internet buddy when your R&P homegrown unit wraps you around a telephone pole.

As for the Mustang OEM Pwr Steering: I went through the whole system; valve, hyd. arm, rubber, steering box...the whole d$#n thing...spent a little money there too. Still unsatisfied I went to TCP power R&P....I'd pay $300 for the feedback in the wheel alone. The results are outstanding, the installation simple and the quality is above average. As with all things improvements can be made but I think an off-the-shelf, user installable, 40 year technology power steering upgrade is worth $2K.

-Q
 
I'm still sketching out my j-car swap but someone posted a link a couple of weeks ago about a place that rebuilt his original box to a 12:1. I still want the feel of the rack but certainly someone can build a good quick ratio box. It's not really a complicated piece of machinery.

I'll try to find that link.
 
DarkBuddha said:
bnickel sent me a link so I thought we'd dredge this thread up again... here is the nifty link he sent of a saginaw box that supposedly has killer feel and response... http://www.detroitspeed.com/600SteeringGear10.html .

So, anyone have any experience with this box? Or do you have any other steering improvement alternatives? Post it. :nice:


don't have any other info on this box really, but it looks a lot smaller than any of the other boxes i have seen to date, maybe it will work, maybe not but it looks like it might be worth a shot. anyone alse got any other ideas? i had checked out the woodward servos online at one point but the overall length of those put them in the same probelm area as trying to adapt one of the other saginaw power boxes.
 
Håkan said:
(snip)
I already have a small organization in place in the US though that can be activated when the road tests hopefully turns out succesful.

That sounds like good news; the setup looks very well thought-out. The use of a Saab rack is very appealing (even though half of that company is owned by GM :rolleyes: ) - much more so than something purpose-built by a company that might disappear next week. There are plenty of Saab 900s around.

If you need any roadtest data involving, say, a '65 Fastback, by all means give me a shout. :D
 
TT670 said:
I see alot of guys going the the MII setup, Ive had my share of experience with streetrods and MII suspensions. Its not much better than the stock supension, If youve ever driven a pinto you know what I mean.

I know what you mean. I had a 71 Pinto with 50 series tires. The ride was bad and the R&P was too weak. I snapped it hitting a pothole at about 30 mph! It got stuck in one position and all I could do was go around in circles to the left, couldn't straighten out the steering wheel!

Another issue I read about having R&P in the early Stangs was that there were no kits yet that would clear full length headers.
 
I have been doing some sketching on a little bit different idea. Since most of these rack kits tend to cause bump steer issues, why not leave a stock style center link in the system. You would use a power steering centerlink in the stock style position and replace the pitman arm with a second idler. The rack would attach to the center link via the normal power steering slave cylinder location.

On second thought, there would probably be too many bind issues. :(
 
2nd Mustang said:
I know what you mean. I had a 71 Pinto with 50 series tires. The ride was bad and the R&P was too weak. I snapped it hitting a pothole at about 30 mph! It got stuck in one position and all I could do was go around in circles to the left, couldn't straighten out the steering wheel!

Another issue I read about having R&P in the early Stangs was that there were no kits yet that would clear full length headers.


As I understand it, the TCP one would clear it and I think Randall's will.