P0024 Timing Over Advanced; 2012 Ford 5.0 Coyote

b.sheff

New Member
Apr 14, 2020
6
0
1
36
South Dakota
Hello, hopefully somebody with a similar issue can chime in
or offer some advice on how to further proceed. I'm working
on a 2012 Ford Mustang 5.0L V8 and I'm experiencing a P0024
(exhaust camshaft position timing over advanced bank 2). I
went through the basic diagnosis tree per Ford and was led
to replace the camshaft VVT phaser assembly.

- Oil pressure hot was 10-12psi idle hot (spec is 10-15psig
idle hot).
- VVT monitor bank 2 exhaust phaser stuck at or close to
zero degrees.
- Under WOT, phaser would advance full to around 40 degrees
and be steady until reduced throttle.
- Phaser is not variable like the others are, computer is
commanding it proper.
- Engine is very quiet, no noise or abnormal chatter.

Fast forward to today, when pulling apart the engine I
noticed a few things. The oil pump is an aftermarket Melling
pump (standard) and I didn't see any markings on the timing
components other then the 4 camshaft phasers. The phasers
are OEM but not sure about the chains, guides or tensioners.
I replaced the bank 2 VVT phaser with Ford OEM as well as
the filter behind the camshaft. Also removed the oil pump to
verify clearances and replaced the pickup o-ring.

NOTE: When compressing the secondary tensioner by hand to
pull the phasers forward and the chain off the tensioner
guide, it wouldn't compress. Lots of pressure on the chain.
It took a heavy amount of pressure by hand until it became
free. Bank 1 didn't have this issue. After compressing the
tensioner numerous times, it didn't appear to be an issue.

When I had the timing components removed, I blew shop air
through the large opening in the camshafts where the filters
are located. It did not blow easily. Seemed to be a fair
amount of resistance. Not sure what is normal however since
I didn't remove the phasers and try the same on the other
bank. Also from my understanding, the first generation
coyote engines have oil restrictors built into the cylinder
head gaskets.

Finished up bolting everything together and went for a test
drive. Phaser operation seemed to be back to normal. It was
variable and obtaining the desired position. I did 2 WOT
runs and that's when the problem came back. PCM threw code
P0024 once again and phaser operation is no longer variable
and going to desired position per PID.

I'm leaning toward an oil restriction somewhere in the
engine but I really am not sure. Also not sure if I blew
shop air through the correct area to hopefully blow any gunk
out of the passages. Engine oil upon arrival was very clean.
I added .5 quart ATF and it still was clean when I drained
it. No buildup under the valve covers. I believe the
secondary tensioner is oil pressure controlled as well, but
not sure why it was stuck. My thoughts are oil pressure
built up in the head past the restriction and caused it to
not relieve pressure. Pressure must be bleeding off though
since the exhaust phaser will go back to zero degrees.

Not sure where to start. Thought about doing an engine flush
but I don't believe this will necessary make any difference.
I could always tear down the engine but I'm not sure if I
could find what would be causing a restriction. Maybe there
isn't even a oil restriction, but I'm exhausting my ideas.

Any help is appreciated.
 
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SGT Willis

New Member
Jun 23, 2020
3
0
1
31
Portland
Hello, hopefully somebody with a similar issue can chime in
or offer some advice on how to further proceed. I'm working
on a 2012 Ford Mustang 5.0L V8 and I'm experiencing a P0024
(exhaust camshaft position timing over advanced bank 2). I
went through the basic diagnosis tree per Ford and was led
to replace the camshaft VVT phaser assembly.

- Oil pressure hot was 10-12psi idle hot (spec is 10-15psig
idle hot).
- VVT monitor bank 2 exhaust phaser stuck at or close to
zero degrees.
- Under WOT, phaser would advance full to around 40 degrees
and be steady until reduced throttle.
- Phaser is not variable like the others are, computer is
commanding it proper.
- Engine is very quiet, no noise or abnormal chatter.

Fast forward to today, when pulling apart the engine I
noticed a few things. The oil pump is an aftermarket Melling
pump (standard) and I didn't see any markings on the timing
components other then the 4 camshaft phasers. The phasers
are OEM but not sure about the chains, guides or tensioners.
I replaced the bank 2 VVT phaser with Ford OEM as well as
the filter behind the camshaft. Also removed the oil pump to
verify clearances and replaced the pickup o-ring.

NOTE: When compressing the secondary tensioner by hand to
pull the phasers forward and the chain off the tensioner
guide, it wouldn't compress. Lots of pressure on the chain.
It took a heavy amount of pressure by hand until it became
free. Bank 1 didn't have this issue. After compressing the
tensioner numerous times, it didn't appear to be an issue.

When I had the timing components removed, I blew shop air
through the large opening in the camshafts where the filters
are located. It did not blow easily. Seemed to be a fair
amount of resistance. Not sure what is normal however since
I didn't remove the phasers and try the same on the other
bank. Also from my understanding, the first generation
coyote engines have oil restrictors built into the cylinder
head gaskets.

Finished up bolting everything together and went for a test
drive. Phaser operation seemed to be back to normal. It was
variable and obtaining the desired position. I did 2 WOT
runs and that's when the problem came back. PCM threw code
P0024 once again and phaser operation is no longer variable
and going to desired position per PID.

I'm leaning toward an oil restriction somewhere in the
engine but I really am not sure. Also not sure if I blew
shop air through the correct area to hopefully blow any gunk
out of the passages. Engine oil upon arrival was very clean.
I added .5 quart ATF and it still was clean when I drained
it. No buildup under the valve covers. I believe the
secondary tensioner is oil pressure controlled as well, but
not sure why it was stuck. My thoughts are oil pressure
built up in the head past the restriction and caused it to
not relieve pressure. Pressure must be bleeding off though
since the exhaust phaser will go back to zero degrees.

Not sure where to start. Thought about doing an engine flush
but I don't believe this will necessary make any difference.
I could always tear down the engine but I'm not sure if I
could find what would be causing a restriction. Maybe there
isn't even a oil restriction, but I'm exhausting my ideas.

Any help is appreciated.

Just wanted to know if you have resolved the issue. My 2011 GT recently showed P0025 then P0024 two weeks later. The car drives and sounds perfectly fine. Any advice?
 

b.sheff

New Member
Apr 14, 2020
6
0
1
36
South Dakota
Just wanted to know if you have resolved the issue. My 2011 GT recently showed P0025 then P0024 two weeks later. The car drives and sounds perfectly fine. Any advice?

Ended up swapping the engine. Mine sounded and ran fine as well. Even though oil pressure was within ford spec, it was still low in comparison to other owners coyote engines. I didn't tear it down to further diagnose, but I assumed main or rod bearing issue. Id to an oil pressure test and go from there. Im happy to offer further advice if you come back with the results. Best of luck, hopefully doesn't turn into what mine did.
 

SGT Willis

New Member
Jun 23, 2020
3
0
1
31
Portland
Ended up swapping the engine. Mine sounded and ran fine as well. Even though oil pressure was within ford spec, it was still low in comparison to other owners coyote engines. I didn't tear it down to further diagnose, but I assumed main or rod bearing issue. Id to an oil pressure test and go from there. Im happy to offer further advice if you come back with the results. Best of luck, hopefully doesn't turn into what mine did.

Sorry to hear that man. My mechanic says I should first try to change out the camshaft position sensors. As far as the oil pressure test goes, what are most coyote engine owners reading?
 

b.sheff

New Member
Apr 14, 2020
6
0
1
36
South Dakota
I wouldn't. I think you'll be wasting your money swapping those. Sounds like your mechanic is wanting to throw Parts at it. How about offer the advice that he scopes the sensors instead? If he has the equipment to do so? They're a simple hall effect switch and really are not prone to failure. Spec is pretty low and mine was at the bottom of it. Have him hook up an oil pressure test gauge, not swap sensors. Also the chances of both the sensors failing are slim. If I recall, most guys with a coyote are getting minimum 20 psi hot idle. I think average is more mid-twenties.
 

SGT Willis

New Member
Jun 23, 2020
3
0
1
31
Portland
I wouldn't. I think you'll be wasting your money swapping those. Sounds like your mechanic is wanting to throw Parts at it. How about offer the advice that he scopes the sensors instead? If he has the equipment to do so? They're a simple hall effect switch and really are not prone to failure. Spec is pretty low and mine was at the bottom of it. Have him hook up an oil pressure test gauge, not swap sensors. Also the chances of both the sensors failing are slim. If I recall, most guys with a coyote are getting minimum 20 psi hot idle. I think average is more mid-twenties.

Thank you for the speedy response! I'm not very mechanically inclined, so your advice is greatly appreciated. My stomach dropped when you said you swapped engines, I don't really have the money to do a swap, so I want to do whatever I can to correct the issue. I had the codes cleared a few days ago, and when ever I really give it some gas, engine light comes on with either P0024 or P0025. I'm going to have the oil pressure test done tomorrow. Hopefully I get some good news
 

b.sheff

New Member
Apr 14, 2020
6
0
1
36
South Dakota
No problem, I keep up with my emails pretty good due do work. I would be curious at the results of the oil pressure test. When I was battling mine I even pulled apart the front of the motor. I had inspected the oil pump, replaced the pickup tube o-ring and one of the phasers. I think somebody was battling the issue in mind for a while since I found my pump was already a melling aftermarket. I never heard any issues with my engine. However mine was lacking power, big time.
 

b.sheff

New Member
Apr 14, 2020
6
0
1
36
South Dakota
Hi SGT Willis,

How’d the oil pressure test go? Did you find a fix for the problem? My car just started doing the same thing.
Thanks,

Aside from the oil pressure test another thing I would recommend having done. pull one of the valve covers and pop off a couple of the cam caps. If there is heavy pitting on the journals or camshaft itself chances are the oil pressure test will not come back good. Ford 5.4L engines had a ton of issues with that engine and a lot of times if it was borderline failing an oil pressure test, I would pop off a couple of the camshaft caps. You shouldn't be able to feel any scarring in the camshaft. The engine I took out of my Mustang had a considerable amount of wear on the journals. in reality I should have disassembled the block as well to inspect but the cylinder heads were pretty well trashed. I expected similar wear in the engine.